I 70 sucks

[sbooker]

^^^^^^
@mdf. Thanks. Great info. Aspen it is.

 

[Mike King]

Advice related to topic needed from knowledgeable locals please.
At the end of next Feb I will be visiting Aspen from Australia as part of a multi hill ski trip.
I can either fly from SLC to Denver and then hire a car to drive to Aspen and then drive back to Denver from Aspen for my flight home through LAX OR fly direct to Aspen from SLC to Aspen and direct from Aspen to LAX to get home.
The cost to fly into and out of Aspen (when considering car hire) will be just a bit more but I'm weighing up two things. Firstly I would be distraught if the flight into Aspen was delayed/diverted due to snow/wind and I missed a day of skiing (we'll only be skiing 4 days in Aspen). Secondly I don't want to be involved in a wreck on I70.

*The first part of the trip will be from Salt Lake to Jackson and Big Sky so I'll likely have had recent experience driving on winter roads. I have had several previous trips driving on winter roads but I'm by no means an expert in this regard. I have never driven on the i70 past Glenwood Springs (coming from the west). I will be in a 4x4 SUV rental if I drive in and out of Denver.

**I totally understand many of you are thinking - "just stay in Utah and ski there". We are bringing friends from Australia and we really want to show them Aspen as they consider it a 'bucket list' destination. So the Aspen bit is non negotiable. (Neither is Alta, Snowbird, Jackson and Big Sky).

Fly from sac to Aspen. If the flights are cancelled, drive to Aspen from slc — it’s about 6 hours. Flying to Denver and driving to Aspen would be substantially longer.

You will not need a car in Aspen.

 

[tball]

I guess I just get a bit peeved when I read some of this thread because I and many others I know personally fit the stereotype for the I-70 theoretical 'problem.'

We are tourists from places it seldom snows.
We rent cars and drive them. Very rarely have I driven a SUV. In my experience, the SUVs in rental fleets are not better (from a traction standpoint) than a minivan or sedan and they cost substantially more with less functional cargo space.

So I guess I am glad that the law is pretty 'weak'. I and none of my 'touron' friends have been in or caused accidents on I-70 (knock on wood).

Would love to see some hard data on the leading cause and demographics of those in the accidents. If there is a specific cause for the problem, then the law should address that specifically.

I don't think tourist rentals are the majority problem.

My feeling is clueless front rangers and mountain locals who can't afford to replace worn out tires are the biggest problem. Rentals are also a significant contribution, but only in the worst storms.

Also, note that the new law doesn't target rental cars. Most rentals have M+S tires with 3/16 inch of tread, so they are legal. They might not make it in a severe storm, but they are legal.

There are two different issues: accidents and cars getting stuck.

My observation is 2WD vehicles are not causing most accidents, but they are the ones getting stuck in severe storms. Four wheel drives going too fast for their ability to turn and stop seem to cause most accidents. Just my observations, but both are related to inadequate tires and both cause huge traffic problems.

 

[tball]

Also, tourists in 2WD rentals don't expect to drive up the Cottonwood Canyons in UT during a storm, do they? Why should they expect to drive up I-70?

I've driven to up LCC in a 2WD rental, but it was clear weather. If it was snowing, I would have taken the bus.

I've also driven up LCC in my FWD Acura Integra with four studded snow tires dozens of times, including huge storms. Perfectly legal and zero issues, as it's all about traction.

 

[Ken_R]

Also, tourists in 2WD rentals don't expect to drive up the Cottonwood Canyons in UT during a storm, do they? Why should they expect to drive up I-70?

I've driven to up LCC in a 2WD rental, but it was clear weather. If it was snowing, I would have taken the bus.

I've also driven up LCC in my FWD Acura Integra with four studded snow tires dozens of times, including huge storms. Perfectly legal and zero issues, as it's all about traction.

Since i70 is one of the longest interstate highways in the Country people treat it as such, a major interstate thruway. But it is also the highest! The Eisenhower Tunnel is the highest point in the entire US Interstate Highway System. A lot of people get surprised by how bad conditions can get with just 1,000~2,000 feet in elevation change. Most accidents happen coming up or down the tunnel on either side and also Vail Pass.

In and out Canyon roads like the one in LCC, Taos, Ski Santa Fe etc are different animals, people expect them to get really bad and in some there are public transportation options like you mentioned available, the speeds are much lower in them but still some roll the dice and pay the price. There is basically no truck traffic in the either which helps.

 

[fatbob]

Since i70 is one of the longest interstate highways in the Country people treat it as such, a major interstate thruway. But it is also the highest! The Eisenhower Tunnel is the highest point in the entire US Interstate Highway System. A lot of people get surprised by how bad conditions can get with just 1,000~2,000 feet in elevation change. Most accidents happen coming up or down the tunnel on either side and also Vail Pass.

I've driven the tunnel a fair few times and Vail pass a fair number more additional times plus plenty of journeys through Glenwood Canyon. All in a FWD rental with as good tires as I can find in the lot. Renting a SUV from past experience doesn't guarantee me even 4wd (a particular example out of YVR) and certainly not snow tires (4x4 with Texas plates -red flag). I've survived thus far and not ever lost serious traction through the primary method of not driving like a bellend (I always buy and carry chains as well)

I remain frightened driving down from the tunnel to Silverthorne even in the summer due to the astonishing number of bellends pushing the speed in high centre of gravity SUVs and trucks. The closing speed between someone letting it roll and one periodically braking to keep it legal is huge. Same down the Vail side of Vail pass with impatient folks.

 

[Ken_R]

I've driven the tunnel a fair few times and Vail pass a fair number more additional times plus plenty of journeys through Glenwood Canyon. All in a FWD rental with as good tires as I can find in the lot. Renting a SUV from past experience doesn't guarantee me even 4wd (a particular example out of YVR) and certainly not snow tires (4x4 with Texas plates -red flag). I've survived thus far and not ever lost serious traction through the primary method of not driving like a bellend (I always buy and carry chains as well)

I remain frightened driving down from the tunnel to Silverthorne even in the summer due to the astonishing number of bellends pushing the speed in high centre of gravity SUVs and trucks. The closing speed between someone letting it roll and one periodically braking to keep it legal is huge. Same down the Vail side of Vail pass with impatient folks.

It is all about the current conditions. Most of the time you can even ride a motorcycle safely through those areas.

The debate is about driving in BAD winter weather and road conditions. It is about making a choice to drive when there is a traction law in effect. One can almost always hold off the drive until conditions are better. It can be just waiting one or two hours before making the drive. I have done it. Before I moved to Colorado I came here to ski often and most times I rented a cheap fwd sedan to drive up. If conditions were bad I just waited a few hours until they werent. It was that simple.

Oh, Summer on i70, that is a whole nother problem. The traffic volume is just overwhelming the infrastructure and like you mentioned, the speed of some vehicles. Traffic laws are enforced quite a bit though, specially between Georgetown and Silverthorne, judging from the amount of traffic cop stops I see in progress while driving through every week.

 

[SBrown]

... There are two different issues: accidents and cars getting stuck.

My observation is 2WD vehicles are not causing most accidents, but they are the ones getting stuck in severe storms. Four wheel drives going too fast for their ability to turn and stop seem to cause most accidents. Just my observations, but both are related to inadequate tires and both cause huge traffic problems.

I agree. I want to add that I'm curious how many chain reaction accidents are caused by semis pulling into the left lane at 35 mph to pass another truck, who is doing 34 mph. That makes me aggro. (Yes, me.) It's gotten worse since I've been driving a vehicle that maxes out at 55-ish going uphill at altitude. My other vehicles can accelerate just fine, but The Van takes a bit. I am careful not to pass when other (faster) cars are behind me, but it is infuriating how many times I will have a head of steam up (which I neeeeeed) while passing some really slow trucks, and then the semi at the rear suddenly pulls over into the left lane and I have to throw on my brakes, which just totally messes me up. Usually, the semi that caused the issue takes about 5 min to pass, because he can't go more than 40. Sometimes they just block the lanes for a while as traffic backs up. Or if he does manage to pass, I am the slow asshole in the left lane, if it's too crowded to get back over into the right lane, because I can't accelerate uphill very quickly.

Ok that's off my chest. Sort of. Anyway, count me in on the "No Trucks Passing EVER" side.

 

[Nathanvg]

It is not about that. Its about making the i70 mountain corridor safer for everyone. The problem is multiprong, You got CMVs (18 wheelers), Rental Vehicles, Local Vehicles, Out of State vehicles etc.

Hey I am not saying to restrict traffic all the time, JUST when the conditions are REALLY dangerous which honestly even during the winter do not happen every week.

Safety and limiting access are intertwined in this situations unfortunately. If we're focused on safety I suppose the debate would be between restricting to snow tires on all vehicles vs. spending that money on more plowing. The latter has big benefits to non-locals and likely may be cost effective overall.

 

[BC.]

Anyway, count me in on the "No Trucks Passing EVER" side.

I would totally be in the camp as well......they are brutal here on our highways in NEPA. Rt. 80, 81, 84 have ridiculous truck traffic on them. I think a lot of people agree that keeping trucks in the right lane would do a lot for safety on our roads.....

 

[Bill Miles]

I wonder how I ever made it over Loveland pass (pre-tunnel) in a 69 Camaro in a snowstorm? I did have to chain up coming back a few days later.

 

[SBrown]

I wonder how I ever made it over Loveland pass (pre-tunnel) in a 69 Camaro in a snowstorm? I did have to chain up coming back a few days later.

Did it a bunch in the back of my parents' RWD Oldsmobile. Once we had to turn around because an avalanche had covered the road. Dad did a 354-pt turn on the pass, I was so scared he'd back over the edge I got out of the car.

 

[tball]

I agree. I want to add that I'm curious how many chain reaction accidents are caused by semis pulling into the left lane at 35 mph to pass another truck, who is doing 34 mph. That makes me aggro. (Yes, me.) It's gotten worse since I've been driving a vehicle that maxes out at 55-ish going uphill at altitude. My other vehicles can accelerate just fine, but The Van takes a bit. I am careful not to pass when other (faster) cars are behind me, but it is infuriating how many times I will have a head of steam up (which I neeeeeed) while passing some really slow trucks, and then the semi at the rear suddenly pulls over into the left lane and I have to throw on my brakes, which just totally messes me up. Usually, the semi that caused the issue takes about 5 min to pass, because he can't go more than 40. Sometimes they just block the lanes for a while as traffic backs up. Or if he does manage to pass, I am the slow asshole in the left lane, if it's too crowded to get back over into the right lane, because I can't accelerate uphill very quickly.

Ok that's off my chest. Sort of. Anyway, count me in on the "No Trucks Passing EVER" side.

Yep. I've used my horn more on I-70 left lane trucks than anywhere. Even if I'm 40 cars back, I know exactly which one of those trucks made us nearly come to a stop and let him have it when I finally pass.

Something has to be done about the trucks. They consume an enormous amount of the road's throughput in addition to causing accidents.

I know there are federal laws about restricting trucks on interstate highways. There are also federal laws against not turning a shoulder into a toll lane.

CDOT got a waiver to build the shoulder toll and open it a certain number of days per year. I think they should also seek a waiver to eliminate big rigs during known peak days and severe storms.

Or, only let them travel in a convey at the top of the hour with a State Patrol escort that keeps them in the right lane.

 

[tball]

I've driven the tunnel a fair few times and Vail pass a fair number more additional times plus plenty of journeys through Glenwood Canyon. All in a FWD rental with as good tires as I can find in the lot. Renting a SUV from past experience doesn't guarantee me even 4wd (a particular example out of YVR) and certainly not snow tires (4x4 with Texas plates -red flag). I've survived thus far and not ever lost serious traction through the primary method of not driving like a bellend (I always buy and carry chains as well)

Safety and limiting access are intertwined in this situations unfortunately. If we're focused on safety I suppose the debate would be between restricting to snow tires on all vehicles vs. spending that money on more plowing. The latter has big benefits to non-locals and likely may be cost effective overall.

In severe storms, it's not practical to plow enough to keep the steep grades passable by a 2WD with all-season tires. The snow comes down so fast that vehicles will be driving in snow and they need traction.

Currently, when that happens they typically just close the road. Those of us who have invested in vehicles that are capable of easily handling those conditions are not allowed to pass because of those who have not. Note that the resort shuttles are fully capable, so this isn't about tourists vs. locals.

Same rules as the Cottonwood Canyons during severe storms would be reasonable, yes?

 

[Kneale Brownson]

Since i70 is one of the longest interstate highways in the Country people treat it as such, a major interstate thruway. But it is also the highest! The Eisenhower Tunnel is the highest point in the entire US Interstate Highway System. .

I never knew the tunnel was higher than Vail Pass. The things you learn from this forum!!!

 

[Ken_R]

I never knew the tunnel was higher than Vail Pass. The things you learn from this forum!!!

Yep. "With a maximum elevation of 11,158 feet (3,401 m) above sea level, it is one of the highest vehicular tunnels in the world."

Vail Pass is 10,662.

That said, Vail Pass can get way way worse because the road is worse, there are more curves and bridges and its quite a long stretch at elevation (from the east).

 

[John Webb]

Did it a bunch in the back of my parents' RWD Oldsmobile. Once we had to turn around because an avalanche had covered the road. Dad did a 354-pt turn on the pass, I was so scared he'd back over the edge I got out of the car.

I once drove WB from ID Springs to Beaver CK in a small POS 2WD rental car with sketchy tires. All trucks were parked or stuck, hardly anyone out.
I thought I-70 should really be closed and looked left to see the EB closed at Vail then turned the radio on. Radio had WB closed by avalanche across exit of the Eisenhauer Tunnel 10 min after I drove thru that area. Arrived at BC to find all power out but that's another story.

 

[Kneale Brownson]

My first visit to A-Basin was pre-tunnel. On the way down from the pass in the dark, driving a Mercedes 230SL with four snow tires, I encountered a line of stopped vehicles. Sitting there, dead stopped, after several minutes, the car slid a few inches. I think my warm tires melted a little snow and that formed ice. Every few minutes the car would slide a foot or so. Also every few minutes, some idiot in a pickup would pass the line of cars. Guess they figured nobody would be coming uphill.

I spent the rest of the night in a dorm-style room at the Basin. I think that building burned down a year or two later.

 

[Ken_R]

My first visit to A-Basin was pre-tunnel. On the way down from the pass in the dark, driving a Mercedes 230SL with four snow tires, I encountered a line of stopped vehicles. Sitting there, dead stopped, after several minutes, the car slid a few inches. I think my warm tires melted a little snow and that formed ice. Every few minutes the car would slide a foot or so. Also every few minutes, some idiot in a pickup would pass the line of cars. Guess they figured nobody would be coming uphill.

I spent the rest of the night in a dorm-style room at the Basin. I think that building burned down a year or two later.

Must have been awesome to experience A Basin during those times

 

[pchewn]

I stayed in the DU faculty lodge at the bottom of Pali (the run, before the lift) once in 1974 . It was a nice bunk-room and dorm-room type lodge. All other times were just day trips from Denver (1967 until moving to Oregon in 1980).