Hybrids - The New Winter Tire

[scott43]

Maybe a bit harsh on the Subaru but I get it. Ideally a bigger SUV would have load-levelling rear suspension tech to accommodate these things. However, those can be expensive to fix. Like my neighbour who can't afford to fix his BMW X5's rear air suspension... Maybe think Tahoe or something, solid rear axle.

 

[crgildart]

Maybe a bit harsh on the Subaru but I get it. Ideally a bigger SUV would have load-levelling rear suspension tech to accommodate these things. However, those can be expensive to fix. Like my neighbour who can't afford to fix his BMW X5's rear air suspension... Maybe think Tahoe or something, solid rear axle.

16 switches?

 

[Don in Morrison]

Good job crushing the front fenders. They tryin' to emulate the General Lee?

 

[jonc]

Thanks for all your comments! We were not driving at all aggressively nor going above the 75 mph max speed limit on the highways and were only doing about 55mph on the one curvy mountainous section between Nashville and Atlanta due to our concerns about the tire wear. The only thing different between our trip there and trip back (other than 4,000 more miles on the tires) was that it rained most of the way back. I would have thought that would have reduced tire wear due to less friction but maybe it allowed the car to be constantly slipping in the rear.

From the posts I've read in the subaruoutback.org and other forums it does sound like this is a design flaw or as noted above, was designed to drive to the grocery store rather than the rugged (though we never take ours off road), loaded down road trips that Subaru markets it for. Almost everyone that complains about excessive tire wear talk about it happening on road trips. Yes, our Outback has very bad understeer but we don't drive aggressively so we just slow way down for turns. It is not a fun car to drive at all. I'm fairly mechanically inclined and am open to beefing up the suspension some except I don't want to be a guinea pig with new $800+ tires on it taking someone else's word that I'll get better tire wear on road trips. I'm also not thrilled with sinking money into a car that we hate and can't wait to sell when we won't get killed financially (though maybe we just need to get it over with and move one). We took the more frugal route going with the Outback in part because of the higher mpg than the other vehicles we considered but even that was a lie by Subaru as real customer mileage is a lot lower than Subaru states compared to the Acura MDX for instance that tends to out perform the stated mileage. Unfortunately we bought the marketing hype in a lot of areas and now feel stuck.

I could go thru the hassle of reloading all the ski gear and suit cases and paying to have the alignment checked both loaded and unloaded but if this car is that fragile that we can't use it on road trips then it's just not the car for us. One thing I thought of as an option for our one big 2 month ski trip each year would be to get a light weight trailer like they sell at Harbor Freight and put the couple hundred pounds of gear on that with it distributed properly so as not to add tongue weight and change the alignment. That sounds like a P.I.T.A but it would get the weight off of this flimsy car that was designed to be driven back and forth to the grocery store with 50 lbs of groceries. Right now the car is essentially a paper weight as we can't drive it until we put new tires on it and we don't want to do that until we figure out how to avoid the same fate. I'm considering looking for a cheap 3rd car that we can use to rack miles on to keep miles off this Subaru but it's a bummer to have to do that. One thing is for sure, we will never look at another Subaru again.

To be fair to the Subaru brand, generally the cars are quite good in terms of low maintenance and good gas mileage. Across my family we have owned several different years of Forester and Outback. This current generation Outback in my opinion does not do the brand any favors. The driver assistance features were good ideas in theory that do not always work well in practice. It is not a luxury car but they have added features to make it compete with luxury brands. We have a long list of somewhat minor complaints that add up to a lot of frustration.

 

[jonc]

Maybe a bit harsh on the Subaru but I get it. Ideally a bigger SUV would have load-levelling rear suspension tech to accommodate these things. However, those can be expensive to fix. Like my neighbour who can't afford to fix his BMW X5's rear air suspension... Maybe think Tahoe or something, solid rear axle.

My other car has a self leveling air suspension, it’s amazing! Until it breaks when you’re far away from home.

I have learned enough over the years to repair it and replace parts myself as needed. It has become just another wear item. If I had to take it to the dealer for these issues I’d need a new loan to pay for it

Subaru vehicles don’t need that headache.

 

[François Pugh]

Maybe a bit harsh on the Subaru but I get it. Ideally a bigger SUV would have load-levelling rear suspension tech to accommodate these things. However, those can be expensive to fix. Like my neighbour who can't afford to fix his BMW X5's rear air suspension... Maybe think Tahoe or something, solid rear axle.

That doesn't seem too harsh at all. It seems like we have a well known defect that the dealer is doing SFA about.
At least with the head gasket problem they replaced the in warranty ones.

The wear problem will be more apparent on long road trips because wear is greater when the tires have heated up.

Seems like if it was loaded alignment you would get wear on the inside, but maybe the suspension geometry changes to in to compensate for castor. I'm too lazy to look it up, but OP should. be able to figure it out.

Easy fix, trade it in on a Mazda.

 

[scott43]

I don't know that I'd classify it as a design flaw..more a works-as-designed in an unfortunate way. Many vehicles will do the same thing. It's just part of the compromises..people want a cushy ride but also be able to tote and tow. It's like the pick-up truck that's a penalty box until you put 2000lbs in the back. I would suggest the compromises chosen work poorly for some people. There are options though..Tahoe/Suburban, Jeep Grand Cherokee, Nissan Armada..

 

[surfandski]

Well, I've been trying to figure out what to do for a few days and ended up not splurging on top of the line tires (one guy reported he only got 28k miles out of the Michelin Defender LTX on his Outback) and opted for some cheaper tires that were recommended on the Outback forum because I have a feeling we will be selling this car before next ski season. Subaru sure markets the heck out of these things as the ultimate go anywhere with your toys vehicle so we thought we were being frugal and chose it over the Acura MDX and Infinity Qx60 that were in the final 3. Unfortunately, I drank their marketing coolaid but it turns out these are just not designed for family road trips as more than a couple suitcases in the back and it throws off the alignment and the Awd starts eating tires. Rather than having to be stressing about weighing every bag before a trip and then worrying about tire wear the whole time we will keep our eyes open for a good deal on a heavier duty vehicle and then sell this one. Even before the tire issue it seemed like my wife or I would comment, "man I hate this car" at least once each time we drove it so it's probably for the best. I've had a lot of cars thru the years, and many of them I was ambivalent about, but this was the first that truly frustrated me....us. Oh well, it kept us safe during this year's ski trip so that was good. I think I may go 4wd next time as even though the AWD in our Lexus Suv doesn't eat tires no matter how loaded up it is, we just don't need more than 2wd most of the year so it would be nice to just shift into 4 the few months we need it.

I will save the hybrid tires for our next vehicle. BTW- I ended up going with BFG Advantage T/A Sports because they were only $378 delivered to my house. Plus $60 to mount them at Costco so I'll only be into them for $440. Sorry for the thread drift with me whining about my Subaru but this was not an issue I thought I'd be dealing with when I bought it 9 months ago.

 

[ChrisFromOC]

Well, I've been trying to figure out what to do for a few days and ended up not splurging on top of the line tires (one guy reported he only got 28k miles out of the Michelin Defender LTX on his Outback) and opted for some cheaper tires that were recommended on the Outback forum because I have a feeling we will be selling this car before next ski season. Subaru sure markets the heck out of these things as the ultimate go anywhere with your toys vehicle so we thought we were being frugal and chose it over the Acura MDX and Infinity Qx60 that were in the final 3. Unfortunately, I drank their marketing coolaid but it turns out these are just not designed for family road trips as more than a couple suitcases in the back and it throws off the alignment and the Awd starts eating tires. Rather than having to be stressing about weighing every bag before a trip and then worrying about tire wear the whole time we will keep our eyes open for a good deal on a heavier duty vehicle and then sell this one. Even before the tire issue it seemed like my wife or I would comment, "man I hate this car" at least once each time we drove it so it's probably for the best. I've had a lot of cars thru the years, and many of them I was ambivalent about, but this was the first that truly frustrated me....us. Oh well, it kept us safe during this year's ski trip so that was good. I think I may go 4wd next time as even though the AWD in our Lexus Suv doesn't eat tires no matter how loaded up it is, we just don't need more than 2wd most of the year so it would be nice to just shift into 4 the few months we need it.

I will save the hybrid tires for our next vehicle. BTW- I ended up going with BFG Advantage T/A Sports because they were only $378 delivered to my house. Plus $60 to mount them at Costco so I'll only be into them for $440. Sorry for the thread drift with me whining about my Subaru but this was not an issue I thought I'd be dealing with when I bought it 9 months ago.

We put the Mich Premier LTX on our new Outback, and so far so good. We don’t use the car much for long road trips such as yours, and fortunately have not run into this issue with this Outback or our 2015. Overall, we really like the Outbacks. There are sacrifices with all vehicles of course, but for our uses the Subarus seem to be just great. You mentioned the MDX —- I replaced by 2009 MDX with a 2017 MDX and am less than thrilled by its performance. Depending on how they perform once they are out for a bit, I may move to the Subaru Ascent.

Good luck with the new tires, and I hope that and a quality alignment check helps to make things work better for you.

 

[surfandski]

We put the Mich Premier LTX on our new Outback, and so far so good. We don’t use the car much for long road trips such as yours, and fortunately have not run into this issue with this Outback or our 2015. Overall, we really like the Outbacks. There are sacrifices with all vehicles of course, but for our uses the Subarus seem to be just great. You mentioned the MDX —- I replaced by 2009 MDX with a 2017 MDX and am less than thrilled by its performance. Depending on how they perform once they are out for a bit, I may move to the Subaru Ascent.

Good luck with the new tires, and I hope that and a quality alignment check helps to make things work better for you.

Thanks and that's good to know about MDX. I'm realizing now, more than ever in history, it's important to try before you buy. I'm not sure what factors came into play with your MDX but most of our frustration with the Subaru is with the "smart technology" stuff like assisted braking, lane departure, etc. We have most of it turned off but some of it we have to turn off and on just to pull in or out of our driveway, etc. I don't recall if I mentioned this earlier but I got stuck in the Wolf Creek parking lot because it snowed maybe 4-6" and turned to windblown Styrofoam so when I went to leave the parking lot was full of divots where tires had been parked. Every time I'd start to get momentum to where I could have easily driven out, the car thought I was running over a human and would stop my rpms and flash "object danger" leaving me dead in the water. I had all of the buttons turned off but for the life of me I couldn't figure out how to override the "it's not a human or an object" feature and since I was now blocking traffic I didn't have time to stop and try to find it in the manual but thankfully 2 guys gave a push until I could get going. It wasn't a traction issue, the car just didn't know what to make of having to drive out of a divot in the snow and assumed I was trying to run something, or someone, over. In a fwd car that didn't have this feature I could have rocked it back and forth until I was out but every time I'd start to get momentum in reverse or forward, it would shut down and flash "object". The unexpected slamming on of the brakes at 40mph is another fun one. I wish I had bought the base model but they package some of the "must haves" with all the other technology so you can't just add a couple things.

With this trend towards "smarter than us" technology I sure hope at least some manufacturers will continue to offer stripped down options for those of us who don't want our car making bad decisions for us. It's almost like they've just accepted that everyone is going to drive around with their heads down texting so "let's just design the car to pay attention for them so they can text more safely". Give me something like my old 4-runner from the early 90's.

Again, sorry for hijacking this thread.

 

[BGreen]

I went with Blizzaks because the sale price was ridiculous and since I plan to replace the vehicle before next year, I don’t think I need more than a season from them. Overall, I would say they are OK. I don’t really understand the hype, but they certainly are more enjoyable to drive than any studded tire I’ve used and are predictable in all conditions. In the future, unless I’m expecting a lot of snow, I’ll probably go with a more all-season oriented tire like the X-Ice (which truly suck in slush and churned snow). I still plan to get a set of Falkens for my off-road/road trip SUV because that vehicle needs a tire that can handle anything.

 

[Ken_R]

After more than a year on the Cooper AT-3's and a huge range of conditions I gotta say they are awesome. From -20ºF to 115ºF they have worked extremely well and made my vehicle safer.

 

[Snowfan]

surfandski...sorry to see you so unhappy with your Outback. We have a 17 2.5 OB P and are totally pleased at 30K miles in 10 months. New tires on last week but no complaint due to 1 mile dirt/gravel street then driveway to our home. I am a regular at subaruoutback.org gen 5 forum and see/find nothing on your rapid rear tire wear. My guess is that there is a problem with the car, certainly not an intrinsic issue of design. Your bashing shows more about you than the car.

Subaru retains 70% of their customers because they are not junk and most customers are satisfied. I'm about to swap my 01 e class 4matic Benz for a new Crosstrek. That's how much I like my 17 Outback. They are a "value" buy, yes, but have many positive attributes at their price point.

Again, so sorry you are apparently the recipient of a lemon. Don't take it too serious, it's just a car. Sell the POS and get something else.

 

[Ken_R]

Thanks and that's good to know about MDX. I'm realizing now, more than ever in history, it's important to try before you buy. I'm not sure what factors came into play with your MDX but most of our frustration with the Subaru is with the "smart technology" stuff like assisted braking, lane departure, etc. We have most of it turned off but some of it we have to turn off and on just to pull in or out of our driveway, etc. I don't recall if I mentioned this earlier but I got stuck in the Wolf Creek parking lot because it snowed maybe 4-6" and turned to windblown Styrofoam so when I went to leave the parking lot was full of divots where tires had been parked. Every time I'd start to get momentum to where I could have easily driven out, the car thought I was running over a human and would stop my rpms and flash "object danger" leaving me dead in the water. I had all of the buttons turned off but for the life of me I couldn't figure out how to override the "it's not a human or an object" feature and since I was now blocking traffic I didn't have time to stop and try to find it in the manual but thankfully 2 guys gave a push until I could get going. It wasn't a traction issue, the car just didn't know what to make of having to drive out of a divot in the snow and assumed I was trying to run something, or someone, over. In a fwd car that didn't have this feature I could have rocked it back and forth until I was out but every time I'd start to get momentum in reverse or forward, it would shut down and flash "object". The unexpected slamming on of the brakes at 40mph is another fun one. I wish I had bought the base model but they package some of the "must haves" with all the other technology so you can't just add a couple things.

With this trend towards "smarter than us" technology I sure hope at least some manufacturers will continue to offer stripped down options for those of us who don't want our car making bad decisions for us. It's almost like they've just accepted that everyone is going to drive around with their heads down texting so "let's just design the car to pay attention for them so they can text more safely". Give me something like my old 4-runner from the early 90's.

Again, sorry for hijacking this thread.

I find this odd. We have put our 17' Forester (with Blizzaks) through a very wide range of winter conditions in lots, crappy roads and highways and the awd has worked perfectly. Never have I had to turn off any feature. The reverse on the CVT is not super strong but works.

 

[ChrisFromOC]

I find this odd. We have put our 17' Forester (with Blizzaks) through a very wide range of winter conditions in lots, crappy roads and highways and the awd has worked perfectly. Never have I had to turn off any feature. The reverse on the CVT is not super strong but works.

We’ve had the same experience, and I find the Subaru safety features (eyesight) to be fair superior to the Acura offerings. The large majority of our driving is in So Cal with no weather problems, but we’ve found both of our Outbacks to really work well on trips to Mammoth or CO. The only time it wants to break for us is pulling into the garage when it gets upset with how close we pull up to the cabinets!

 

[Fuller]

Here's the The Silver Subie on her 4th St Pete to Whitefish round trip. 4th round trip for the Hakkapeliitta R2's, still have the OEM tires to put back on when we get back home. This thing is loaded up believe me. I did notice some brake pulsing on the way down Teton Pass. Will need to get that checked. 65k miles so far.

A Floridan driving a Subaru, now that's cool with me.

 

[surfandski]

View attachment 41209
Here's the The Silver Subie on her 4th St Pete to Whitefish round trip. 4th round trip for the Hakkapeliitta R2's, still have the OEM tires to put back on when we get back home. This thing is loaded up believe me. I did notice some brake pulsing on the way down Teton Pass. Will need to get that checked. 65k miles so far.

I wasn't trying to offend any Subaru owners and I'm not at all surprised by people liking their Subarus. If it was just me and my wife on this road trip or if I lived in Denver and was doing front range day trips to the resort then no problem as it did great (almost all the time) the 2 months we were driving I70 to the mountains 6 days a week. For us, the problem was the stretch of land between Florida and Colorado and needing to get our gear there. This was our first Subaru so we saw the ads with them loaded up with racks and gear but what we didn't realize is you can't use it like they do in the ads (Mtbs, ski box, etc) AND have suitcases or gear in the cargo area for a family road trip or you overload the undersprung rear end and eat tires. That is where the vehicle doesn't work for us and we should have researched more before buying it instead of making assumptions from the way they market it. I was even told that we shouldn't use our Kuat bike rack with 4 bikes as the vehicle can't handle that much weight even with the cargo area empty but a couple going with only 2 bikes on the back would be fine. And yes, the Awd system is great and the reason we originally chose it over the other vehicles so my comments were never about the awd and merely about the "safety features" which had we known, could have been avoided if we bought the base model.

@Fuller Are you doing those trips as a party of 2 because I don't see a ski box on top? There Is no way we could get 7 pairs of skis, 4 boots, poles, etc inside the vehicle with our two children in the back so we have a large Thule box on top (like many ads have).

Anyway, sorry to ruffle anyone's Subaru feathers. The design works, just not for a family of 4.

 

[Ken_R]

I wasn't trying to offend any Subaru owners and I'm not at all surprised by people liking their Subarus. If it was just me and my wife on this road trip or if I lived in Denver and was doing front range day trips to the resort then no problem as it did great (almost all the time) the 2 months we were driving I70 to the mountains 6 days a week. For us, the problem was the stretch of land between Florida and Colorado and needing to get our gear there. This was our first Subaru so we saw the ads with them loaded up with racks and gear but what we didn't realize is you can't use it like they do in the ads (Mtbs, ski box, etc) AND have suitcases or gear in the cargo area for a family road trip or you overload the undersprung rear end and eat tires. That is where the vehicle doesn't work for us and we should have researched more before buying it instead of making assumptions from the way they market it. I was even told that we shouldn't use our Kuat bike rack with 4 bikes as the vehicle can't handle that much weight even with the cargo area empty but a couple going with only 2 bikes on the back would be fine. And yes, the Awd system is great and the reason we originally chose it over the other vehicles so my comments were never about the awd and merely about the "safety features" which had we known, could have been avoided if we bought the base model.

@Fuller Are you doing those trips as a party of 2 because I don't see a ski box on top? There Is no way we could get 7 pairs of skis, 4 boots, poles, etc inside the vehicle with our two children in the back so we have a large Thule box on top (like many ads have).

Anyway, sorry to ruffle anyone's Subaru feathers. The design works, just not for a family of 4.

How much weight did you load it up with??? I have driven my 17' Forester fully loaded (roof box and rear to the headliner) with 4 ppl (avg 180 lb each) and it was fine. Only the mpg suffered. The rear wasnt even slammed.

 

[scott43]

I'm not offended by the comments and I can see this being a legit beef. We're all entitled to our opinion . World would be boring otherwise..

 

[nay]

Anyway, sorry to ruffle anyone's Subaru feathers. The design works, just not for a family of 4.

No matter what you do, that car is going to be tiny as your kids get bigger. The Outback is an AWD car with a fake raised SUV suspension for marketing purposes. There’s nothing wrong with that outside perhaps of limited load bearing, but it is what is. OEM tires are also pure crap in most cases. They are designed to get the car off the lot.

Find a ‘03/‘04 Sequoia Limited. They will be dirt cheap in your area.

They are so easy to drive long distances, just crush the miles, and the drivetrain goes forever. And you can pull one sensor and kill the terrible traction control and all the “smart” stuff is gone. It’s a real 4x4 with 2wd, AWD, 4WD, and low range selectable.

I can tell you exactly what to do with the suspension so it can handle anything you want to hang off it while driving and riding nicely. You could probably do the entire thing including tires for under $7K and still get over 200K out of it. Mine has 292k, 40K of which are our miles over the last 20 months. I paid $6K for it in Colorado including a double DIN touch screen Pioneer NEX head unit with backup camera fully wired to the steering wheel controls - a $1,600 shop installed upgrade. $800 for a heavy duty suspension and $900 for 34” Falken AT3W tires. Drives like its new and it’s a monster ski rig in any conditions.

This is Breck Peak 10. 4 adult size people, 2 almost adult sized people, 2 adult sized dogs, ski gear and mountain bikes. No pavement. No subes.

This is coming off very tight switchbacks off the top.

This is Floyd.