Hybrids - The New Winter Tire

[Andy Mink]

modicum of common sense and awareness

More important than any tire or AWD system on the road. Unfortunately, you can't just buy them in a store.

 

[cantunamunch]

More important than any tire or AWD system on the road. Unfortunately, you can't just buy them in a store.

Yeh, if you don't practice every day you lose it entirely.

 

[Plai]

Are you running door-sticker pressures?

Yes.... hmmmm... thanks for the idea of lowering tire pressure for snowy conditions --- now how to avoid the annoying low pressure alarm?

Do you need an all-terrain tire? With more sipes, a more highway oriented SUV/light truck tire is going to do better in icy conditions than an AT tire with big blocks.

If you can give up off road usage altogether there are some SUV tires like the Michelin Defender and Premier that do very well in icy conditions, or a Michelin LTX can do light duty off-road. I'm a Michelin fanboy and would pick from one of those.

Maybe Michelin will have the new CrossClimate SUV available in your size by the time you need tires. That would be ideal, as long as you don't go offroad. It's only in a couple sizes now, with more hopefully coming soon. I'm hoping to put that on our SUV that only makes occasional trips into the mountains in a year or so.

Don't need off-road --- my use case is 95% road and 5% snow --- SF bayarea weekend warrior.
Thanks for the recommendation.

 

[cantunamunch]

Yes.... hmmmm... thanks for the idea of lowering tire pressure for snowy conditions --- now how to avoid the annoying low pressure alarm?.

I confess to hidden motives, since I don't know enough about hybrid tires - your answer was a data point in my next purchase decision, and I expect a lot of frozen no-accumulation and black ice driving in the next few months.

 

[Pequenita]

Yes.... hmmmm... thanks for the idea of lowering tire pressure for snowy conditions --- now how to avoid the annoying low pressure alarm?
.

Would you plan on reinflating every time you get back on dry pavement? Under-inflated tires run hot.

 

[Plai]

Would you plan on reinflating every time you get back on dry pavement? Under-inflated tires run hot.

I'm not likely to do this because of the low pressure alarm. At least not until I figure out how to disable and enable it reliably. Also would need to know where to reflate the tires to pressure.

These are not high on my priority list. I've skied Rose 5 years now, 10-12 days a year, and have had one instance of this. I'll drive slower.

 

[sparty]

Then somebody in a newly minted Dodge Ram decided to merge into the narrow space between me and the car in front of me - and didn't even bother to turn on their blinkers. And performed a mini fish tail. They repeated the fish tail performance shortly thereafter on a simple right turn.

While I agree 100% on the need for allowing reasonable space and using blinkers, there's nothing wrong with fishtailing a pickup around in the snow. If you're operating in rear-wheel drive and the rear end isn't stepping out a little in slippery conditions, you're most likely going too slow (not to mention missing out on half the fun).

 

[Monique]

While I agree 100% on the need for allowing reasonable space and using blinkers, there's nothing wrong with fishtailing a pickup around in the snow. If you're operating in rear-wheel drive and the rear end isn't stepping out a little in slippery conditions, you're most likely going too slow (not to mention missing out on half the fun).

You can skip on the fun when using a right turn lane into traffic with a steady stream of other vehicles behind you, or generally when driving in town. Save that shit for wide empty roads where your loss of traction doesn't affect other people. I see a lot of "Fishtailing is no big deal" pickups in the ditches after snow storms ...

 

[François Pugh]

If you don't have space to store 4 sets of studded hakkas over the summer, you need to get rid of some of your other stuff. Just say'n.

 

[scott43]

You can skip on the fun when using a right turn lane into traffic with a steady stream of other vehicles behind you, or generally when driving in town. Save that shit for wide empty roads where your loss of traction doesn't affect other people. I see a lot of "Fishtailing is no big deal" pickups in the ditches after snow storms ...

I don't do it when other people are around because it freaks them out and i don't want them to lose their mind and crash themself. Kind of like when an impatient person honks on a left turn person in front of them possibly causing them to rush and cause an accident.

 

[scott43]

If you don't have space to store 4 sets of studded hakkas over the summer, you need to get rid of some of your other stuff. Just say'n.

Not to mention you can have the shop store them for a bit of dough.

 

[sparty]

You can skip on the fun when using a right turn lane into traffic with a steady stream of other vehicles behind you, or generally when driving in town. Save that shit for wide empty roads where your loss of traction doesn't affect other people. I see a lot of "Fishtailing is no big deal" pickups in the ditches after snow storms ...

I won't do it if I don't have room to goof it a little, but verifying the available traction with the drive wheels is generally a lot safer than verifying it with the steer axle. It's why I prefer rear-wheel-drive in the snow even if it's ultimately slower than AWD—it's a lot easier to approach the limit of traction without ending up on the wrong side of it.

If you're ending up in the ditch, you're doing it wrong, but if you've never ended up in the ditch, you're either incredibly good at finding the traction limit without exceeding it, or you've never figured out how to find it. Teenagers should end up in the ditch at least occasionally; it's how you know they're learning to drive properly, and yes, at that level of experience, it's probably best to minimize the more-advanced driving techniques in traffic. With more experience, though, it shouldn't be a big deal to maintain a little rear-wheel slip in a rear-wheel-drive vehicle, especially one as front-biased as a pickup.

 

[Monique]

If you're ending up in the ditch, you're doing it wrong, but if you've never ended up in the ditch, you're either incredibly good at finding the traction limit without exceeding it, or you've never figured out how to find it. Teenagers should end up in the ditch at least occasionally; it's how you know they're learning to drive properly, and yes, at that level of experience, it's probably best to minimize the more-advanced driving techniques in traffic. With more experience, though, it shouldn't be a big deal to maintain a little rear-wheel slip in a rear-wheel-drive vehicle, especially one as front-biased as a pickup.

That is certainly a perspective.

Another perspective is that the vast majority of drivers over estimate their driving ability rather than under estimating, and drive more aggressively than they should for conditions vs too conservatively.

And a further perspective is that the person behind you doesn't know that you're a varsity level driver, so regardless, you should avoid intentionally doing things that can distract them from attending to other hazards.

 

[cantunamunch]

I'm not likely to do this because of the low pressure alarm. At least not until I figure out how to disable and enable it reliably.

Fair enough.

Also would need to know where to reflate the tires to pressure.

That's the easy part. Anywhere, with one of these. My $12 one is in its 5th year of service.

The big problem is one I voiced further upthread, on the first or second page - my current rubber is fantastic (based purely on steering feel as I observe others in ditches) until it cools off to below 20F. Then it is glass, and no matter how I play with the shape and size of the contact patch the coefficient of friction doesn't improve.

 

[neonorchid]

-
I'm grateful for my AWD, my X-Ice tires, and my modicum of common sense and awareness.

I'd like to think I've a handle on the latter ... this coming from a guy who recently drove straight right thru a police barricade on my way out of the city the Saturday night prior to the Philly Marathon. I didn't see the darned thing, was in the middle of a short city block street with bad lighting and no reflective paint or blinking light to alert one of its presents! Darned thing should've been at the end of the block by the stop sign! Only in Philadelphia! My car snapped the heavy wooden barricade in two and propeled it forward. Expected to see a mangled front end! Was shocked in disbelief and relieved to only find a few yellow scuff marks! Was going to clean it with Bug and Tar remover, decided to leave it for posterity, battle wounds! Crazy thing is, a cop was parked at the intersection where I turned onto the street, other side, same direction of travel, had to see and or hear it, certainly saw me do a three-point turn to exit the way I entered, and didn't stop me. That's Philly!
OTT, X-Ice finally back in stock and on order at Costco, soon to be mounted. Glad I waited, was easy with all the recent rain here in the East.
Working on the AWD part. Difficult to get rid of a car costing next to nothing to keep running and so old that I've no worries about damage from city parking/driving.
Really, speaking as someone who buys and keeps a new car ~10 years or so, assuming it doesn't give me trouble, I don't like anything currently on the market in my $$$ range. I want Toyota to do a sport wagon with the '19 AWD Rav4 Hybrid drivetrain ... local yota dealer tells me it's coming, that in ~ two years every vehicle will be offered with AWD and hybrid option, promises, promises.

 

[Monique]

I'd like to think I've a handle on the latter ... this coming from a guy who recently drove straight right thru a police barricade on my way out of the city the Saturday night prior to the Philly Marathon.

Yikes!

Reminds me of when my husband barreled into the "SLOW" sign at the base of the mountain ... the safety guys nearly fell on the snow laughing.

 

[sparty]

That is certainly a perspective.

Another perspective is that the vast majority of drivers over estimate their driving ability rather than under estimating, and drive more aggressively than they should for conditions vs too conservatively.

Yes, the vast majority of drivers overestimate their ability (or at least college students do: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/ad37/e00352406dd776bc010769489b2412951c7d.pdf). I thought I'd seen a slightly less dramatic report (something like 70% of all American drivers rating themselves as above average) in the news a few years ago, but I can't find a reference online. I'm actually very curious as to the impact the greater cultural penetration of rally driving in Sweden versus the U.S. might have on those statistics.

I'd put at least a fair bit of the blame for that on our so-called driver-education system, which teaches traffic basics and DUI laws with grossly insufficient actual seat time and roughly zero attention to anything beyond basic driving techniques (having "steer into the skid" in the manual doesn't count). Knowing how to throttle-steer a RWD car, when and how to left-foot brake (especially an understeering FWD car), etc., should be general knowledge for the driving public, not esoteric knowledge outside of performance-driving hobbyists.

And yes, in the process of learning how to do those things, you're going to get things wrong sometimes, and that's going to result in going places you weren't planning on. Just like we all fall down learning how to ski, mountain bike, ride an ATV, or other activities similar to driving a car, you're going to have failures learning how to drive. Having a venue for learning that allows you to make those mistakes without a large penalty—whether it be a properly netted ski hill, a road track with good run-off, a frozen lake, or even just a large, snowy parking lot—is, of course, the best way to do so.

And a further perspective is that the person behind you doesn't know that you're a varsity level driver, so regardless, you should avoid intentionally doing things that can distract them from attending to other hazards.

Being able to apply a bit of oversteer on a snowy road is hardly a varsity-level skill, and if it's that distracting, the person in question needs to get out of the house more. We're not talking about pendulum turns and four-wheel drifts at speed.

 

[Monique]

Being able to apply a bit of oversteer on a snowy road is hardly a varsity-level skill, and if it's that distracting, the person in question needs to get out of the house more. We're not talking about pendulum turns and four-wheel drifts at speed.

In the context of this dickwad "merging" between my car and the next with no space and no blinker, I am disinclined to give them the benefit of the doubt with the shimmy performance both in the merge and in the later turn.

 

[scott43]

Being able to apply a bit of oversteer on a snowy road is hardly a varsity-level skill, and if it's that distracting, the person in question needs to get out of the house more. We're not talking about pendulum turns and four-wheel drifts at speed.

Yeah you need to qualify your school levels... I'd say 75% of the people in Toronto can't or don't know how to counter-steer.. I'd say 75% of other Ontarians can...

 

[Pequenita]

I'd put at least a fair bit of the blame for that on our so-called driver-education system, which teaches traffic basics and DUI laws with grossly insufficient actual seat time and roughly zero attention to anything beyond basic driving techniques (having "steer into the skid" in the manual doesn't count). Knowing how to throttle-steer a RWD car, when and how to left-foot brake (especially an understeering FWD car), etc., should be general knowledge for the driving public, not esoteric knowledge outside of performance-driving hobbyists.

Honestly, even something like gears and how to use them in snowy conditions is esoteric to many drivers these days.