How will Skiing be Different in the '20-'21 Season?

[James]

Well VT was packed this weekend. Crammed indoors eating. Makes no sense. VT’s county rule now has lots of the Northeast supposed to quarantine for 2 weeks. Killington was following that rule on the honor system this summer. If they stick to it now, few people will be skiing.

Here’s the current map. You need to be from a green county if from outside VT.

 

[SBrown]

Summit County CO, @James

 

[Noodler]

This might be the opposite. If the lodges are essentially closed, and big capacity restrictions are in place... the skiing for those who get out there on the mountain might be quite rich. Short to no lines, only break a quick trip behind a tree.. bring a plattypuss full of water and pocket full of sugar. Holidays will be a whole different spitshow though..

Well the lodges can't be "fully" closed, as restrooms must be made available or else they would not be permitted to operate at all.

 

[mister moose]

Here’s the current map. You need to be from a green county if from outside VT.

Can someone explain to me how it is OK to travel to Killington, Okemo or Stowe from Addison county (902 cases per million),

But not from Rensselaer county, (646 cases per million)???

Or Grafton County, NH, (442 cases per million) Or Hampshire county, MA, (780 cases per million)

This makes no sense to me.

 

[Wendy]

Can someone explain to me how it is OK to travel to Killington, Okemo or Stowe from Addison county (902 cases per million),

View attachment 112587

But not from Rensselaer county, (646 cases per million)???

View attachment 112588

Or Grafton County, NH, (442 cases per million) Or Hampshire county, MA, (780 cases per million)

This makes no sense to me.

Well, it seems inexplicable.

I have no idea how that policy, while well intentioned, could be enforced. And it sounds, from James’ description, like there’s many people visiting VT right now. I don’t see how that’s going to change this winter unless there’s some way to enforce quarantine/ travel restrictions and I don’t see businesses really being on board with that...even if it’s smart from a public health perspective.....they want business. In another forum, Vermont residents were complaining about people visiting from out of state and didn’t want them to come this winter, but isn’t VT heavily dependent on tourism?

 

[James]

Can someone explain to me how it is OK to travel to Killington, Okemo or Stowe from Addison county (902 cases per million),
But not from Rensselaer county, (646 cases per million)???

Because it’s in VT.

Well, it seems inexplicable.

I have no idea how that policy, while well intentioned, could be enforced. And it sounds, from James’ description, like there’s many people visiting VT right now. I don’t see how that’s going to change this winter unless there’s some way to enforce quarantine/ travel restrictions and I don’t see businesses really being on board with that...even if it’s smart from a public health perspective.....they want business. In another forum, Vermont residents were complaining about people visiting from out of state and didn’t want them to come this winter, but isn’t VT heavily dependent on tourism?

You can do credit card billing addresses.
Fairly easy for skiing, restaurants and stores are a different thing. Whether all hotels and inns are actually following the rule is another story. Just annecdotal, judging from observations, I’d say no.
Could be they booked when the county was green and now it’s yellow or red. Lot more red than a month ago.
The good news is mask compliance is very high, near 100%. But once you start eating or drinking they’re gone. Weather has enabled lots of outside eating, but those days are nearly gone. An outside tent with closed sides is basically inside.

Vermont is heavily dependent on tourism. It’s a Catch-22 right now.

 

[James]

And at least from what I've seen, the restaurant/retail scene in Vermont has been pretty respectful of crowding, masking, and distancing rules.

Masking and distancing I agree for the most part. Visiting? No way people are following the county rule. Can’t speak to hotels, but restaurants are very busy. This weekend was big. There are many people who don’t seem to care if they eat inside. Even when it’s doable outside. I think 50% occupancy is still pretty crazy inside with low ceilings and no special ventilation.

It’s insane to see a line to get into a ‘99’ restaurant for brunch in Rutland or looking at a bar/restaurant in Ludlow with lots of people inside.

If people eating had to sign a form like this as they do for lodging, the restaurants would be near empty. Or most would be lying.
It really remains to be seen how this will play out for skiing. Yeah, if implemented it will work, but are the ski areas viable from just people who’ve been in VT for 2 weeks or 1 week with negative test? Doubtful. It pretty much eliminates weekends, mlk. Christmas and Feb vacation could be doable if people will commit to 1wk quarantine in VT.

——————————
I certify that I have reviewed the State of Vermont out-of-state traveler guidelines and travel map and comply with current health and safety requirements for traveling to, from, and within the State of Vermont. I further certify that I understand all travelers should stay home if ill (with any symptoms); maintain physical distance of at least 6’ from anyone outside their household; wear a cloth mask when in public spaces; and wash or sanitize hands often
—————————

Guest Compliance Options for Lodging Establishments | Agency of Commerce and Community Development

accd.vermont.gov

 

[mister moose]

You can do credit card billing addresses.
Fairly easy for skiing, restaurants and stores are a different thing.

Vermont is heavily dependent on tourism. It’s a Catch-22 right now.

Credit card billing addresses aren't going to work to validate those that quarantined prior to arrival, or those that have been in VT for 2 weeks or longer. The seasonal rental market is hot with folks expecting to work from home and ski for the winter. Their credit card will still say out of state.

I looked into tourism vs the VT economy recently. It's behind manufacturing, government, health care, real estate, retail, and several other sectors. It ranks higher in % employment than it does on % GDP. No state wants to lose jobs or revenue, but Tourism is not even top 5. I don't think it will break into double digits on % of State revenue.

While this is an often heard remark, the numbers don't bear it out.

Sales and use taxes (which include lift tickets/passes), and meals and rooms taxes total 27%. That's statewide, tourism's contribution is quite a bit smaller. Let's look at GDP for how much smaller.

Statewide (read includes non tourism sources) accommodations and food services is 4.5% of the economy, Other services (Including ski resorts) is 2.4%. This totals 6.9% of the economy, of which tourism is a fraction.

 

[slowrider]

Night skiing hmmm.

 

[Wendy]

Masking and distancing I agree for the most part. Visiting? No way people are following the county rule. Can’t speak to hotels, but restaurants are very busy. This weekend was big. There are many people who don’t seem to care if they eat inside. Even when it’s doable outside. I think 50% occupancy is still pretty crazy inside with low ceilings and no special ventilation.

It’s insane to see a line to get into a ‘99’ restaurant for brunch in Rutland or looking at a bar/restaurant in Ludlow with lots of people inside.

If people eating had to sign a form like this as they do for lodging, the restaurants would be near empty. Or most would be lying.
It really remains to be seen how this will play out for skiing. Yeah, if implemented it will work, but are the ski areas viable from just people who’ve been in VT for 2 weeks or 1 week with negative test? Doubtful. It pretty much eliminates weekends, mlk. Christmas and Feb vacation could be doable if people will commit to 1wk quarantine in VT.

——————————
I certify that I have reviewed the State of Vermont out-of-state traveler guidelines and travel map and comply with current health and safety requirements for traveling to, from, and within the State of Vermont. I further certify that I understand all travelers should stay home if ill (with any symptoms); maintain physical distance of at least 6’ from anyone outside their household; wear a cloth mask when in public spaces; and wash or sanitize hands often
—————————

Guest Compliance Options for Lodging Establishments | Agency of Commerce and Community Development

accd.vermont.gov

The travel restriction is based on good faith, it seems. I hope for Vermont’s sake that they don’t experience a surge like some other states.

I won’t be traveling there to ski, as I’m from one of those “high Covid” counties. Staying home and skiing locally, and taking all precautions makes me sort of feel as if I can be part of the solution rather than part of the problem. It’s the one thing I have that allows me to feel sort of in control in a situation where there’s so many variables out of my control.

 

[crgildart]

Well the lodges can't be "fully" closed, as restrooms must be made available or else they would not be permitted to operate at all.

I thought places were going with portable toilets at various places around the base and even out on the mountain.

 

[Crank]

Recent article in the Washington Post has comments from an inn owner about how they ask questions and guests claim they have quarantined but who knows if they really have. Pretty much on the honor system.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/life...c5779e-0719-11eb-859b-f9c27abe638d_story.html

 

[nay]

You mean 10% total, or down 10%?
If total, skiing this year will be almost as bad as surfing. Lots of time out there, very little time actually doing it.

Down 10%. Most of skiing isn’t actually skiing. That’s not really a COVID thing, we just have a worth it bias like surfers.

The question is when you limit things like indoor access, how many people will really push through that?

The skiing itself has no reason to be any different at all (or better with capacity controls) despite a potentially radical difference of “being on the mountain”.

I think we are all going to find out exactly how much “being on the mountain” means in complement to “making turns”.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m stoked about the potential ability to maximize higher quality turns (again, lower capacity), I’m also being realistic that those hour long lunch ‘n beer are going to suck in your car.

 

[Wendy]

I thought places were going with portable toilets at various places around the base and even out on the mountain.

Personally, I have no issue with going into the lodge to use the bathroom. Portable toilets...eh, not so much. I’d feel much safer in a lodge bathroom than in a portable toilet. Not sure if ski areas can place porta potties anywhere on the mountain. It seems there would be regulatory restrictions.

 

[James]

Credit card billing addresses aren't going to work to validate those that quarantined prior to arrival, or those that have been in VT for 2 weeks or longer. The seasonal rental market is hot with folks expecting to work from home and ski for the winter. Their credit card will still say out of state.

I looked into tourism vs the VT economy recently. It's behind manufacturing, government, health care, real estate, retail, and several other sectors. It ranks higher in % employment than it does on % GDP. No state wants to lose jobs or revenue, but Tourism is not even top 5. I don't think it will break into double digits on % of State revenue.

While this is an often heard remark, the numbers don't bear it out.

View attachment 112610

Sales and use taxes (which include lift tickets/passes), and meals and rooms taxes total 27%. That's statewide, tourism's contribution is quite a bit smaller. Let's look at GDP for how much smaller.

View attachment 112611

Statewide (read includes non tourism sources) accommodations and food services is 4.5% of the economy, Other services (Including ski resorts) is 2.4%. This totals 6.9% of the economy, of which tourism is a fraction.

Have a look at this report. It is by the Dept of Tourism, so there’s that. It’s saying 8% of GDP from tourism, 2016. A significant amount of tourism is winter. $1.6 of the $2.8billion total for 2017.

https://accd.vermont.gov/sites/accdnew/files/documents/VDTM/BenchmarkStudy/VDTM-Research-2017BenchmarkStudyFullReport.pdf

https://accd.vermont.gov/sites/accdnew/files/documents/VDTM/BenchmarkStudy/VDTM-Research-2017BenchmarkStudyExecutiveSummary.pdf

 

[Cheizz]

Here in Europe, most ski areas have published their Covid-measures. All seem very doable for me. Wearing masks in lifts and indoor spaces, keeping distance (only a real change in lift lines and lifts), no après-ski (never done it, not my thing).
The biggest problem is the cross-broder travel. From my home in the Netherlands for example, I am discurraged to travel to France (neccesary travel only). I have to go in isolation for 10 days when I get there and I have to go into isolation back home when I get back. That sort of thing is more of a handicap to me than wearing a mask, keeping my distance and NOT being able to act like an idiot in a Schirm bar...

 

[Wendy]

Here in Europe, most ski areas have published their Covid-measures. All seem very doable for me. Wearing masks in lifts and indoor spaces, keeping distance (only a real change in lift lines and lifts), no après-ski (never done it, not my thing).
The biggest problem is the cross-broder travel. From my home in the Netherlands for example, I am discurraged to travel to France (neccesary travel only). I have to go in isolation for 10 days when I get there and I have to go into isolation back home when I get back. That sort of thing is more of a handicap to me than wearing a mask, keeping my distance and NOT being able to act like an idiot in a Schirm bar...

How does France and the Netherlands (or any other European country) enforce the 10 day quarantine?

 

[James]

NY issues ski area plan. Can open Nov 6.

State guidance on the reopening of ski resorts includes the following precautions:

• Masks required at all times, except when eating/drinking or skiing.
• Social distancing between parties required at all times.
• Restrict gondolas/lifts to members of the same party.
• Limit ski lessons to no more than 10 people.
• Thorough cleaning and disinfection of shared/rented equipment.
• Shuttles, food & beverage, retail service must conform to State-issued guidance.
• Reduce outdoor capacity on mountain by 25% during "peak" days or if multiple trails are closed due to unseasonable conditions.

Governor Cuomo Announces Ski Resorts Allowed to Reopen With 50 Percent Indoor Capacity Beginning November 6

Governor Cuomo announced that ski resorts can reopen with 50 percent indoor capacity and with strict health and safety protocols under state-issued guidance starting Friday, November 6.

www.governor.ny.gov

 

[ski otter 2]

I especially like the required limits to the same party members on lifts and gondolas. I wish the Colorado governor would do the same thing. (I'd be able to ski a few more areas if so.)

 

[jmeb]

I especially like the required limits to the same party members on lifts and gondolas. I wish the Colorado governor would do the same thing. (I'd be able to ski a few more areas if so.)

The state guidelines state you cannot be forced to ride with members outside your party. But you may opt to -- as long as gondies are <50% capacity loaded and there is a seat or more between you on lifts (two singles on a quad or triple for instance).

I imagine there will be some social pressure to double up -- hopefully ski areas are very clear that it is optional.