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How will Skiing be Different in the '20-'21 Season?

Wendy

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I did. No way to safely bump chairs socially distant without an N95 mask for the liftees.

Add in that there will be no instructors picking up your 4/5/6 year old and riding safely right next to them on the lift either.

I'm good with self service chairs. Not the first time for me..
I don’t think there’s a lot of risk for lifties. They are in contact with each skier group for what? 2 seconds? Outdoors? Then add in masks and gloves and the risk drops even more. Lower risk than a ski instructor, IMHO.

What about ski patrol? On mountain patrolling, not a big deal, but in the patrol room with injured skiers and boarders who might be in there for awhile; that’s another issue.
 

Wendy

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jmeb

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What about ski patrol? On mountain patrolling, not a big deal, but in the patrol room with injured skiers and boarders who might be in there for awhile; that’s another issue.

Expect that if you don't have an injury that requires going into the patrol room, you won't. Something life/limb/eye threatening -- sure. A potentially broken wrist? or a bum knee? You're probably going to get packaged on the hill and sent directly to your car. Lots of public awareness about minimized care for less severe injuries.

Expect patrol rooms to have reduced number of beds. And far more stringent PPE protocols. No family or friends inside with you (except for minors -- and even then may be updated outside).

Everyone needs to tone down their skiing this year. It is not the year you're going to get cozy service from patrol.
 

nay

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To be clear though -- none of these are in any state or local public health orders yet. They are potential hypotheticals that ski areas expect some variation of.

50% restaurant is in place at the state level. What I mean by “we’ve heard” is some ski areas have already published. Loveland for example has published their chair guidelines.

I’m just drawing a natural conclusion that the problem statement is:

“Maintain social distancing in lift lines”.

If that isn’t the problem statement, then all bets all off, although the CO public health orders all built on social distancing. That article about France being “business as usual except masks and social distancing” has zero differentiation to “masks and social distancing here”. There is nothing normal about social distancing, it is the master actor.

So if lift lines are going to be socially distanced, then you have to have single file lanes, and if you have to have lanes then you have to have ropes, and if you have to have ropes then you can’t have lift lines outside of lift line corrals.

In which case it looks exactly like A-Basin where Lenawee can handle about 30-40 skiers max in that tight space. Since the Lenawee corral is the bottleneck at A-Basin, that single point has to, by definition, drive max capacity.

Or you have to change the problem statement. And if you change the problem statement to:

“People have to sit socially distanced on chairs unless they know each other.”

Then there is no reason to set daily max capacity, because you just let it back up in the lift line and let people lie about knowing each other, and in effect the only change is indoor space.

I don’t hear anybody talking line this since everybody is talking about limiting capacity, so I’m pretty sure they my problem statement and the math that follows is on point.

I’m not saying that I agree with this, I am just rejecting the idea that things can be “normal” if lift lines cannot. Those two things are mutually exclusive, even in France. Unless you ski someplace without lift lines, because we can, and we should, anyway.

I bought an A-Basin pass precisely because, in the absence of effective COVID therapeutics by spring, the abnormal lift lines are going to be shorter than they will ever be again.

If I am wrong, good things are afoot and I’ll happily stand in a crowd under the East Wall.
 

crgildart

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Perhaps looking at the data from NYC and other public transit would be helpful. As I recall, there was little evidence of transmission from taking public transport in NYC. The initial fears of subways and buses being Covid factories was way overblown. Go figure.

Little evidence that mass transit poses a risk of coronavirus outbreaks
I'm going to take the view that massive decline in public transit use was more the reason than it being safe to run at full capacity.

 

crgildart

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I don’t think there’s a lot of risk for lifties. They are in contact with each skier group for what? 2 seconds? Outdoors? Then add in masks and gloves and the risk drops even more. Lower risk than a ski instructor, IMHO.

What about ski patrol? On mountain patrolling, not a big deal, but in the patrol room with injured skiers and boarders who might be in there for awhile; that’s another issue.
Most of the loading ramps where I ski are covered. If the lift stops they can be there with the same group of people for 5 or 10 minutes. Ski instructors won't be riding the lifts right next to or teaching as close to students as liftees bumping chairs would be. I'd think bumping chairs will be a no go..
 

crgildart

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I'm going to take the view that massive decline in public transit use was more the reason than it being safe to run at full capacity.

Look at the carnage in India where they were packing mass transit.


 

jmeb

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I'd think bumping chairs will be a no go..

Everyone in the ski industry is saying "watching Australia / New Zealand for lessons and adapating." They all bumped chairs. No major reported issues. I would be surprised if fixed grips aren't bumped.
 

crgildart

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Everyone in the ski industry is saying "watching Australia / New Zealand." They all bumped chairs. No major reported issues. I would be surprised if fixed grips aren't bumped.
I thought @geepers said they were NOT bumping chairs down under. Maybe I'm thinkin A-Basin wires crossed. Regardless, the infection rate in New Zealand and Australia was next to nothing already..
 

jmeb

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I thought @geepers said they were NOT bumping chairs down under. Maybe I'm thinkin A-Basin wires crossed. Regardless, the infection rate in New Zealand and Australia was next to nothing already..

They bumped fixed grip hairs in Australia. Probably the closest skier/liftie interaction is with Tbars - lots of those in Vail's Perisher. Mostly not possible to ride without a liftie pulling down the T and placing it for the rider/s.
 

Wendy

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Look at the carnage in India where they were packing mass transit.


You’re cherry picking. That’s INDIA. And notice you said “packing.” As in, packed full of people. I’d imagine ski shuttles will have some empty seats. Additionally, shuttles from parking lots involve rides of a few minutes, not an hour. And, school buses are operating now. One just went down the road here. Windows were all open.

Most of the mass transit cases occurred when people were not wearing masks, early on in the pandemic. Additionally, there’s always going to be outliers. I mean, we KNOW people who skied late last season got Covid. But that doesn’t mean they caught it while skiing. And, knowing that, you are planning to ski this year. So, inherently, you recognize that skiing doesn’t pose a big risk for Covid. If somebody from Australia who was skiing Perisher fell ill from Covid, would that stop you from skiing? I’d wager that you’d see that as an outlier.

The article I posted was from Scientific American; I could’ve picked a bunch of others, but that publication usually sticks with the scientific mindset in its articles.
 
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crgildart

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You’re cherry picking. That’s INDIA. And notice you said “packing.” As in, packed full of people. I’d imagine ski shuttles will have some empty seats. Additionally, shuttles from parking lots involve rides of a few minutes, not an hour. And, school buses are operating now. One just went down the road here. Windows were all open.

Most of the mass transit cases occurred when people were not wearing masks, early on in the pandemic. Additionally, there’s always going to be outliers. I mean, we KNOW people who skied late last season got Covid. But that doesn’t mean they caught it while skiing. And, knowing that, you are planning to ski this year. So, inherently, you recognize that skiing doesn’t pose a big risk for Covid. If somebody from Australia who was skiing Perisher fell ill from Covid, would that stop you from skiing? I’d wager that you’d see that as an outlier.

The article I posted was from Scientific American; I could’ve picked a bunch of others, but that publication usually sticks with the scientific mindset in its articles.
School buses are running at 25% of capacity occupancy here, yes windows open. Good luck with that at a ski resort o a holiday weekend. And, they're not going to let you arrive more than 30 minutes early for your 4 hour slot..
 

Wendy

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School buses are running at 25% of capacity occupancy here, yes windows open. Good luck with that at a ski resort o a holiday weekend. And, they're not going to let you arrive more than 30 minutes early for your 4 hour slot..
My guess is bus capacity will be limited, or people will limit it by choosing not to ride the bus. Again, this season may cull the herd a bit. If you can’t walk with your gear to the lodge or lift, you won’t ski.
 

jmeb

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Bus capacity going to 50% at my area. Increased frequency. Fogging every few hours.
 

crgildart

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The article I posted was from Scientific American; I could’ve picked a bunch of others, but that publication usually sticks with the scientific mindset in its articles.

Yep, and they stated it was far from conclusive..

Ridership on the city’s notoriously packed commuter trains dropped 92% in mid-April, when New York emerged as an epicenter of the global health crisis.

Epidemiologists interviewed for this story couldn’t point to comparable research on contact tracing that focused on U.S. transit systems.

It’s difficult to classify the danger of any activity during the pandemic given the lack of robust data, Collins said. But in general, she noted, riding transit is much safer if all passengers are wearing face masks that cover their noses and mouths.

People quit using mass transit so there was no data to really determine whether or not it could be a problem. Then they pivoted to the fact that everyone driving cars instead is also not healthy for us or the planet. Valid point.

I'll pass and stick with my car for now... Because way too many people refuse to wear masks around here and the bus driver won't stop the bus every time some covidiot pulls their mask down.
 

pchewn

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My guess is bus capacity will be limited, or people will limit it by choosing not to ride the bus. Again, this season may cull the herd a bit. If you can’t walk with your gear to the lodge or lift, you won’t ski.


At Mt Hood Meadows, they plan on running reduced capacity shuttles and are encouraging:

  • Drivers drop off their group at the base, park remote and then only the driver takes shuttle.
  • "Your car is your base lodge" for everyone else.
 

Jerez

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Or use the cattle car approach that NM resorts do....
1600895556594.png
 

Steve

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I'm dressed for skiing, I'd rather be in an outside shuttle anyway!
 

ski otter 2

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You’re cherry picking. That’s INDIA. And notice you said “packing.” As in, packed full of people. I’d imagine ski shuttles will have some empty seats. Additionally, shuttles from parking lots involve rides of a few minutes, not an hour. And, school buses are operating now. One just went down the road here. Windows were all open.

Most of the mass transit cases occurred when people were not wearing masks, early on in the pandemic. Additionally, there’s always going to be outliers. I mean, we KNOW people who skied late last season got Covid. But that doesn’t mean they caught it while skiing. And, knowing that, you are planning to ski this year. So, inherently, you recognize that skiing doesn’t pose a big risk for Covid. If somebody from Australia who was skiing Perisher fell ill from Covid, would that stop you from skiing? I’d wager that you’d see that as an outlier.

The article I posted was from Scientific American; I could’ve picked a bunch of others, but that publication usually sticks with the scientific mindset in its articles.

Apologies, but,

In the August 31, 2020 New Yorker there is an 8 page in depth article about New York City MTA, bus drivers. Survival Story. A New York City bus driver faces a pandemic and an uprising. Jennifer Gonnerman.

It's point of view, and the detailed evidence presented, are starkly at odds with that Scientific American article, and your conclusions.

I read the Scientific America article you are relying on/posted. As near as I can tell, it partly disagrees with you, if you read the second half. It says the studies it uses are not in the U.S., and that it is currently unknown what is going on with mass transit and Covid-19 in the U.S. at this point, statistically.

So please read the New Yorker article. ( I have the physical version here, so don't know about online access.) According to the article, just some bare bones details of that in depth article pertinent to your post: the NYC local 100 of the Transport Worker's Union, which represents the City's subway and bus workers, reported their first two deaths from Covid-19 on March 26th, one a bus driver, the other a subway conductor. Both worked out of a Manhattan Bus Depot. During the next ten weeks, the pandemic killed more than a hundred MTA (Bus and subway) employees. During the spring (for which I gather more complete statistics are available, not sure), the MTA "endured a significantly higher death toll from Covid-19 than other government agencies in New York City, including the police and fire departments."

There were intense union fights to protect transit workers there, with masks and distancing, when the city was reluctant to do this. These folks were very much on the front lines of the pandemic, at real risk.

According to the article - just one such detail - James Gannon, the director of communications for Local 100, in the past would write a few paragraphs about his or her life when a member of Local 100 NYC died, for the Union's website. "This spring, he spent a sizable portion of each day as an obituary writer and enlisted the help of two co-workers. 'They just came so fast I couldn't keep up with them,' he said."

"By April 6th, nearly six thousand M.T.A. workers had been quarantined." The local 100 shop steward was assigned the task of, "looking after the sick and shut-in."

The painful details go on for two more pages, closer to the present, but that's enough. Think of how many people had to be sick if over 100 died in that short time.

I'm not sure how these folks would react to the apparently misleading "LIttle evidence...."/Scientific American article posted.
 
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tball

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Bus capacity going to 50% at my area. Increased frequency. Fogging every few hours.
Summit County busses are also at 50%. Maybe a state guideline? RTD (Denver Metro) busses are 15 people max.

@nay I think there are hundreds of problem statements in addition to lift line crowding.
  • How to have reasonable wait times for reduced capacity shuttles.
  • Socially distanced fitting of rental equipment.
  • Providing adequate warming space for guests so they don't get frostbite.
  • Keeping lines for bathrooms reasonable.
  • Preventing spring breakers from overcrowding City Market, the t-shirt shop, liquor stores, and of course pot shops.
Thus the hundreds or thousands of pages of proposed operating procedures.

The one big lever that impacts everything is ski area capacity.
 

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