How to improve skiing?

[mdf]

The position of your shoulders and your arms looks different from those in the other videos. Your arms look farther away from your body than those in other videos. You seem to have your arms like you are hugging a wide barrel and the skiers in the other videos seem to keep them closer to their body and less rounded.

That's what I call the "studying for L3 arm position." I have seen that in several different people. The weird thing is, they don't have it before the L3 prep and it goes away after they pass. (I'm not an instructor or participating in their training, I've just skied socially with several people who were at that point.)

It looks harder to keep your balance when your arms are out wide like that in the video.

Actually, it may be the other way around -- too much stability. Last year I skied with two exceptions to the pattern, skiers who (sort of) kept that arm position long after they passed. So I tried it myself, and found it added a lot of stability on uneven refrozen coral reef. I was surprised how much, given the relative masses of your arms compared to the rest of your body.

 

[JESinstr]

LiquidFeet: Just checking for understanding about a particular turn in a particular video. I don't see any of the above in the back-and-forth of this excellent video posted by Mike King. The body is not making a circular motion. The body is in nearly the exact same position for both the turn to the right and for the turn to the left.

Before I saw this video, I would describe this as a cross-under turn which I understood to involve guiding/steering rotation. But not now. She just sets the edge and pressures the ski and lets it jet in its edged-arc to the other side, where the rotation rapidly occurs to aim and then set the ski to its new direction. Rotation only occurs in the air.


karlo: This is now my favorite video for all the different turns which she demonstrates in beginning of the video. But check this out, when she starts skiing with her hands on her hips, she definitely LEADS with her inside ski edge. She does it like a surgeon, precisely slicing the snow, probably with only the amount of pressure necessary to keep the inside ski lead so the stupid, but powerful outside ski edge knows where to go. Her outside ski looks stupid, powerful and definitely in the passenger seat. While the outside ski tail may kick up snow, the inside ski does not. The inside ski is holding the steering wheel. Mikaela does it so emphatically that she actually has a kind of REVERSE A-FRAME with her inside knee tipping? pulling? or following her inside ankle? of the inside ski into the turn as it slices. Check it out:

Mike King and karlo thank you for the great videos. All you guys and gals are awesome for this great discussion.

What I got from these videos is that skiing really should come from the ski up. Such that the leg shortens or lengthens to ACCOMMODATE (or react) to what the ski is doing.

Traditionally, I have taught gross body movements (inputs) to affect how the skis interact with the snow (outputs). Do any of you guys and gals teach beginners or intermediates to ski from the ski (input) up (with knees, hips torso as the accommodating, resultant, outcome)?

If so, how, and what was the result?

Tim,
IMO any discussion around the concept or and/or value statement for over/under movements is overrated and inconsequential in terms of skiing mechanics. The very idea of deliberately projecting mass for the purpose of "Crossing over" goes against the "bottom up" concept.
Once ski (edge) snow interaction (friction) is taken away, by intentional or unintentional release, our mass is going to go where our mass is going to go. In skiing, If the intent is to turn, then the goal is to redirect our mass to an intended location using the friction from said ski-snow interaction.

IMO there are two "classes" (for lack of a better term) of turns. Those the include rotary and those that don't. Reality is that most turns do and hence PSIA has ROTARY as one of its skill sets. @Mike King 's "Action of the legs" video clearly shows the rotary (and angulation) mechanics in all it's awesomeness. Someone please correct me if wrong, but these mechanics are what many are now calling "brushing". And if so, I would go so far as to say what those incredible athletes in Mike's video are doing is "Airbrushing"!

To Mike's point about Fundamental #5 being the true test of expert skiing, How thoses racers regulate the magnitude of the incredible pressure that results from
re-engagement in order to make the next gate is what makes them the superstars they are.

On the other end of the spectrum is the non rotary or carved turn. The "Get Over it" video shows a pretty good example of this type of turn. There is virtually no rotary, only deliberate COM to BOS alignment with the outside ski and the progressive implementation of edging skills from the bottom up.

To your comment on Mikaela's hands on hips turn. Trust me, she is not leading with her inside ski.

Finally, and maybe most importantly from an instructor's perspective, YES!!!! You should always teach from the bottom up!!!!! Your comment about "Gross body movement" is extremely telling and as you said, traditional. I could begin a rant here, but I will just leave you with this: If "bottom up" is so important, why don't we have a beginner progression that actually teaches and builds fundamental dynamic balance so "bottom up" can be implemented? Solution Hint: see Ron Kipps "Flex Ankles" video.

 

[Uncle-A]

That's what I call the "studying for L3 arm position." I have seen that in several different people. The weird thing is, they don't have it before the L3 prep and it goes away after they pass. (I'm not an instructor or participating in their training, I've just skied socially with several people who were at that point.)



Actually, it may be the other way around -- too much stability. Last year I skied with two exceptions to the pattern, skiers who (sort of) kept that arm position long after they passed. So I tried it myself, and found it added a lot of stability on uneven refrozen coral reef. I was surprised how much, given the relative masses of your arms compared to the rest of your body.

I also am not an instructor and the only time I see that wide open stance is on lower level skiers. One guy I occasionally ski with does that and it reminds of a gorilla stance style of skiing. If you stand wide open like that on a windy day it will slow you down if the wind is blowing up hill. The only balance advantage I can see is if it acts like an out rigger on a fishing boat. When it is very rough at sea a fishing boat may put their out riggers out wide for some stability, but not sure if the same principle applies to skiing.

 

[4ster]

Someone please correct me if wrong, but these mechanics are what many are now calling "brushing". And if so, I would go so far as to say what those incredible athletes in Mike's video are doing is "Airbrushing"!

I have always called that move “re-directing”, as I think Sean also states in the video. Whether or not it is in the air or a pivot on the snow, in my world these are still high performance carved turns executed by Shiffrin, Hirscher & Kristoffeson.
The term brushing comes from HH a “brushed carve” (tm) .

 

[LiquidFeet]

LiquidFeet: Just checking for understanding about a particular turn in a particular video. I don't see any of the above in the back-and-forth of this excellent video posted by Mike King. The body is not making a circular motion. The body is in nearly the exact same position for both the turn to the right and for the turn to the left....
Before I saw this video, I would describe this as a cross-under turn which I understood to involve guiding/steering rotation. But not now. She just sets the edge and pressures the ski and lets it jet in its edged-arc to the other side, where the rotation rapidly occurs to aim and then set the ski to its new direction. Rotation only occurs in the air....

Tim,I am assuming this is the video you are referring to above.

First, a response to what you said above that I've put in blue. A cross-under turn simply means the torso stays about the same height above the snow as the skis cross beneath it to change edges. That label does not indicate whether the turn is carved (pencil-thin tracks) or brushed (skidded without muscular rotation) or "steered" (skis rotated by skier with muscular action).

I would label Michaela's turn, the one you have isolated with your stills, the one that Sean focuses on in the video, as a retraction turn. That's a different turn than the two I described upthread. Michaela's goal in this turn is a FAST transition from one edge to another. We can't see her skis but I suspect she's carving on injected snow.

She clearly shortens the new inside leg to get this new turn started, without lengthening the new outside leg until later. There are some other things she's doing, but just look at her knees.

 

[4ster]

brushed (skidded without muscular rotation)

Ahh, I may have misstated above. This makes more sense . Thanks

 

[LiquidFeet]

Ahh, I may have misstated above. This makes more sense . Thanks

Yeah. Happens when the platform angle of the outside ski is not sufficient for the ski to hold.

 

[karlo]

she definitely LEADS with her inside ski edge.

Sorry. What does that mean? Doing what, at what part of the turn?

 

[MarkP]

QFT^
You can just ski and get better but you’ll only get better at what you’re already doing. Perfect practice, practice with a purpose etc.
The OP will need to change his movement patterns to reach his goal of level III skiing, not an easy task.

Practice makes permanent - or at the very least, more difficult to change - so be mindful of what you practice.

 

[Tim Hodgson]

karlo: A lead is an "equestrian" term. I understand it to mean the two legs on the same side of the horse that stretch the furthest forward.
"Lead

1. Lead (leg): The leading legs of the horse at the canter and Gallop. The front and hind legs on one side of the horse appear to land in front of the other set of front and hind legs when the horse travels. On a curve, a horse is generally asked to lead with the inside legs, though there are exceptions to the general rule, such as the counter canter.[174] See also lead change"

But I also apply it to what I see as moving first. So, what I am seeing (which could be wrong) is at the begininng of the turn and at the end of the turn, she is moving the inside ski first and putting it on a higher edge angle. The inside ski is bent more than the outside ski. It looks like to me that she is scribing an arc with the inside ski to begin each turn. Like she is writing on paper with the outside edge of the inside ski to diagram the shape of the forthcoming turn.

But I come here to learn not to teach. If you see something different please tell me. You guys and gals have a keener eye than me.

Does she have more tip to tail pressure on the inside ski and more tip pressure on the outside ski?

 

[JESinstr]

That label does not indicate whether the turn is carved (pencil-thin tracks) or brushed (skidded without muscular rotation) or "steered" (skis rotated by skier with muscular action)

Ahh, I may have misstated above. This makes more sense . Thanks

Would it be possible for either of you guys to explain how one can skid a turn without muscular rotation?

 

[Rod9301]

Would it be possible for either of you guys to explain how one can skid a turn without muscular rotation?

Easy, just use your ankle to reduce the edge angle on the outside ski, but keep the inside ski tipped.

 

[Tim Hodgson]

LF: Thank you for your work above. Personally I don't see any retraction until the end of the turn where the muscles of the knees retract the skis into the air to be rotated toward their placement on the snow for the forthcoming edge set.

During the rest of the turn, the skis are merely slicing under the torso, pushing up the knees so the legs can get out of the way of the skis doing their job which is cutting the arc under the skier from side to side. This to me appears to be the absence of retraction. What I see is merely pressure management to keep the edge arced by pushing down with the ankles and knees while letting the arc of the turn push the knees up and out of the way as the arc dictates.

That is why the long leg extension short leg softening language is confusing to me. Shouldn't the length of the legs be dictated by the edge angle of the skis? Wouldn't flatter skiing with vertical and upright torso involve equally long legs in a rotated ski turn or in a front of the skis only edged turn?

I hope my knees hold out, because there is allot of stuff I want to experiment with in my personal skiing this coming Winter.

 

[Tim Hodgson]

Would it be possible for either of you guys to explain how one can skid a turn without muscular rotation?

Wouldn't initiating the turn on edge to start the arc, then moving pressure forward to release the tails cause such a skid?

You can do it on Rollerblades quite easily.

 

[JESinstr]

Would it be possible for either of you guys to explain how one can skid a turn without muscular rotation?

Easy, just use your ankle to reduce the edge angle on the outside ski, but keep the inside ski tipped.

Wouldn't initiating the turn on edge to start the arc, then moving pressure forward to release the tails cause such a skid?

You can do it on Rollerblades quite easily.

Ah, so brushing is the interruption of the turning process? I mean both of you describe actions that abandon the turn by getting rid of the edging interaction that builds it.

 

[Tim Hodgson]

I just answered your specific question.

Last season, I experimented with a completely brushed slightly edged "brushed rotation turn" last season. It was accomplished via muscular rotation of the ski. I found that continuing the brushing much past the fall line was not pleasant. Brushing at the inception of the turn was effective followed by edging through the remainder of the turn. But I have no idea how to make a "proper" brushed turn.

 

[Blue Streak]

Ski more like ___________, less like ___________.

 

[Blue Streak]

Skiing is like sex. The more you analyze it, the less fun it is.

 

[LiquidFeet]

LF: Thank you for your work above. Personally I don't see any retraction until the end of the turn where the muscles of the knees retract the skis into the air to be rotated toward their placement on the snow for the forthcoming edge set.

During the rest of the turn, the skis are merely slicing under the torso, pushing up the knees so the legs can get out of the way of the skis doing their job which is cutting the arc under the skier from side to side. This to me appears to be the absence of retraction. What I see is merely pressure management to keep the edge arced by pushing down with the ankles and knees while letting the arc of the turn push the knees up and out of the way as the arc dictates. ...That is why the long leg extension short leg softening language is confusing to me. Shouldn't the length of the legs be dictated by the edge angle of the skis?....

Tim, releases happen at the end of old turn, as you've noted above (blue), and this part of the thread drift discussion is focused on releases. I think people talk about retraction TURNS instead of retraction releases because that type of release is done for very short radius turns; the turn is over so fast that the release impacts directly how the skis are handled during the middle of the turn (shaping phase), after which the next release happens. In Sean Warman's video, those skiers are in slalom gates making very-high-speed super-short-turns that most recreational skiers have no reason nor interest in making other than enjoying the sensations they provide.

When other releases are employed (we've discussed simultaneous long-leg-short-leg, flex-to-release, and extend-to-release here), the skier will have time in the turn to do different things with the skis as they turn to point down the fall line and beyond. Those particular releases don't determine the turn as much as a retraction release does. And they are more relevant to recreational skiing.

Even the retraction allows the skier some choices. Those Olympians in Sean's video can get airborne and pivot the skis before landing, or they can keep the skis on the snow for the whole turn. Sean's video shows a bunch of airborne pivots. At the end of the video he shows flush-gate turns where the skier keeps the skis on the snow. Michaela's release that he featured, the one I focused on upthread, does not show the whole turn, nor what's happening at the snow level, so we don't know the extent to which her skis left the snow.

I watched the Loveland Ski Club video again. In it Michaela doesn't do retraction turns.

 

[mdf]

Ah, so brushing is the interruption of the turning process? I mean both of you describe actions that abandon the turn by getting rid of the edging interaction that builds it.

I just answered your specific question.

Last season, I experimented with a completely brushed slightly edged "brushed rotation turn" last season. It was accomplished via muscular rotation of the ski. I found that continuing the brushing much past the fall line was not pleasant. Brushing at the inception of the turn was effective followed by edging through the remainder of the turn. But I have no idea how to make a "proper" brushed turn.

I do not like the term "brushed carve" but we seem to be stuck with it. I like "drifted turn" like in the car movies, but no one else seems to...

It is a good thing to be able to do, though.
It is fundamentally a speed control move.

Turn just like you were going to carve, but reduce the amount your skis are tipped until the angle between and the snow at the edge is below the amount needed to hold the carve (the "critical edge angle"). The goal is to get the entire ski to drift perpendicular to its length by a similar amount while still having the primary movement along its length, and to get the holding vs drifting to let go and reconnect smoothly and under control. It spreads the speed control over the whole turn, vs the far-too-common abrupt, major skidding at the "bottom" of each turn.

It is not a heel push, and not a big skid. It is also not a stivot, which is very different and done for very different reasons.