How to improve skiing?

[Mike King]

I want to know if all posting here agree to something. There are two different ways of releasing a turn that I often play around with. (There are others, too, but these two ways are what I want to discuss here if people are willing.)

The type of turn I am thinking about has these characteristics:
--The turn is "completed," with skis heading more-or-less across the fall line.
--The turn has enough speed and momentum for the release, however it is accomplished, to result in the body's mass toppling across or crossing over the skis.
--The turn is on blue or steeper terrain so that at its completion the uphill leg has to be shorter than the downhill leg.

The two ways of releasing the old turn that I am thinking of are these:
--Lengthen/extend the uphill/new outside leg (extension release, extend-to-release; skier gets tall in transition)
--Shorten/flex the downhill/new inside leg (flexion release, flex-to-release; skier stays short in transition)

In both cases, the body will topple or cross over the skis due to its momentum. This will in turn flatten the skis, then tip them onto new edges, and as a result get the new turn started.

Again, there are other things one can do to release a turn or to strengthen either of these two actions. But these two all by themselves are pretty direct and simple. I'd like to know if everyone reading here has experienced them both.

Have you? Do you favor one over the other? Do you believe one to be inferior to the other, or do you believe only one of the two actually works? Do you use each, but in different situations?

Again, it is more complex than simply flex to release or extend to release. Proof? Try either move while one-footed and balanced on the appropriate ski. Flexion or extension do not by themselves release the turn. You have to do something that moves the CoM to the outside. If two footed, then flexing the outside leg while leaving the inside leg the same length transfers weight to the inside ski. Since the CoM was balanced against the outside ski, the transfer now means the CoM is outside it's old balance point and the result is that the body starts to move up and over.

 

[KingGrump]

Not sure how that introspection helps.

I was watching Alexz's video when my son walked by a few days ago. He glanced over and his off handed comment was “too stiff”.

IMO, Alexz is holding his body (torso) way too stiff. He is focused on the perfect form. Reading the body language, I can see in his head, he is asking himself, “Am I doing this right? Am I doing that right?”. All the noise in his head is affecting his skiing. Similar to what happens in golf. It’s all in the head. You are your biggest enemy. If the damn ball would only move, then we would have something to react to. Things would be much simpler.

When I am at Taos, I skied with a pretty big clutch of off duty instructors most days of the season. To a person, they are all out there to have fun. Yeah, some may be works on stuff occasionally but invariably they are there to have fun. Trust me, none of them skied like the golf carts @LiquidFeet often mentioned.

Good skiing flows. The body has to flow with it. Good skiers have a disciplined upper body, not a stiff one.

My advice is stop thinking about it and just go free skiing. Rather than working on the perfect instructor turns. Focus on the sensations and having fun. Only do a post-mortem after a completed run or a long set of turns. This is similar to racers and instructors will often free ski to become more centered, balanced and versatile in their skiing. The improvement from free skiing will translate into better performance in the gates and/or instructor type turns.

It is easier to ski down to a turn rather than up to a turn from an ability stand point.

 

[fatbob]

I was watching Alexz's video when my son walked by a few days ago. He glanced over and his off handed comment was “too stiff”.

IMO, Alexz is holding his body (torso) way too stiff. He is focused on the perfect form. Reading the body language, I can see in his head, he is asking himself, “Am I doing this right? Am I doing that right?”. All the noise in his head is affecting his skiing. Similar to what happens in golf. It’s all in the head. You are your biggest enemy. If the damn ball would only move, then we would have something to react to. Things would be much simpler.

When I am at Taos, I skied with a pretty big clutch of off duty instructors most days of the season. To a person, they are all out there to have fun. Yeah, some may be works on stuff occasionally but invariably they are there to have fun. Trust me, none of them skied like the golf carts @LiquidFeet often mentioned.

Good skiing flows. The body has to flow with it. Good skiers have a disciplined upper body, not a stiff one.

My advice is stop thinking about it and just go free skiing. Rather than working on the perfect instructor turns. Focus on the sensations and having fun. Only do a post-mortem after a completed run or a long set of turns. This is similar to racers and instructors will often free ski to become more centered, balanced and versatile in their skiing. The improvement from free skiing will translate into better performance in the gates and/or instructor type turns.

It is easier to ski down to a turn rather than up to a turn from an ability stand point.

Great. Captured my thoughts. My main thought when I saw the video initially was "skis like an instructor in an exam not like a real skier". See it a lot in BASI candidates who I then corrupt by encouraging them to ski "dirty", take chances and get stuff wrong [ Big IANAI caveat here]

 

[Nancy Hummel]

I see many people trying to copy some of the Ballou et al skiing videos as opposed to learning the movement patterns to be able to ski like Ballou. Big difference.

 

[4ster]

I see many people trying to copy some of the Ballou et al skiing videos as opposed to learning the movement patterns to be able to ski like Ballou. Big difference.

QFT^
You can just ski and get better but you’ll only get better at what you’re already doing. Perfect practice, practice with a purpose etc.
The OP will need to change his movement patterns to reach his goal of level III skiing, not an easy task.

 

[karlo]

didn't imagine people wouldn't think of these as releases. In both cases the skis flatten

I think of extension or flex as a way to make anatomical space for the other things that tip the ski, then untip them. This is why I like the dance analogy. One doesn't have to lay out a lengthy list of things to do. To accomplish it, there are few degrees of anatomical and movement freedom. Try tipping the skis without rolling ankles and knees if you keep your "belt" level to the "dance floor" while staying in balance on the outside edge.

 

[alexz]

... “too stiff”.

IMO, Alexz is holding his body (torso) way too stiff. He is focused on the perfect form. ... he is asking himself, “Am I doing this right? ”. ...

I guess it is true for associative phase in general, is not it? Fluency appears at autonomous stage, IMO.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Again, it is more complex than simply flex to release or extend to release. Proof? Try either move while one-footed and balanced on the appropriate ski. Flexion or extension do not by themselves release the turn. You have to do something that moves the CoM to the outside. If two footed, then flexing the outside leg while leaving the inside leg the same length transfers weight to the inside ski. Since the CoM was balanced against the outside ski, the transfer now means the CoM is outside it's old balance point and the result is that the body starts to move up and over.

Egggzactly. The balance against/on the old outside ski is broken when the skier (two-footed was an assumption I made) either shortens the downhill/new-inside-leg or lengthens the uphill/new-outside-leg. (There are other ways of releasing a turn, and other things going on when one uses flex-to-release or extend-to-release, but they are not what I was hoping to discuss here.)

I was not only assuming the skier was skiing on two skis, but assuming that skier had pressure directed appropriately to the the outside ski. When that balance on the outside ski is broken by the extension or by the flexion, the CoM is no longer held in place by the stacked body attached to the outside ski. That body begins to freely move along its line of travel determined by its momentum, which takes it across the skis. Those skis are traveling on their line of travel and begin to straighten out as they flatten. The crossing of the CoM over the skis causes them to flatten.

So no one is comfortable with these descriptions I gave? Odd.

Diagram? Here:

 

[Fishbowl]

I guess it is true for associative phase in general, is not it? Fluency appears at autonomous stage, IMO.

This is a good point. Before you can become Unconsciously Competent you first have to become Consciosly Competent, which requires specifically working on, and refining technique. The final piece of the puzzle is to be able to relax and let it happen. Just free skiing on auto pilot won’t necessarily get you there without learning the appropriate technique first.

 

[Magi]

Thanks, Karlo, for responding. I must admit I didn't imagine people wouldn't think of these as releases. In both cases the skis flatten, the body stops its circular motion and continues moving along on its path and crosses over the skis.

Does anybody else have thoughts on these two?
--Lengthen/extend the uphill/new outside leg (extension release, extend-to-release; skier gets tall in transition, skis flatten)
--Shorten/flex the downhill/new inside leg (flexion release, flex-to-release, skiers stays low in transition, skis flatten)

Shortening gets me better results. I tend to get a "push away" effect when I lengthen as my focus.

Done correctly they both move the "right" amount at the "right" time, but much like thinking "lead with the inside knee" - thinking "shorten" gets me better outcomes.

I think it's because "shortening" allows the forces to develop, and "extending" rushes the development of the forces.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Magi, I too use the flexion release more than the extension one. It's better for short radius turns, since it allows one to get onto high edges earlier, and these days I like to see how high an edge angle I can get in the top of the turn.... For fun .

The extension release feels a little like skating downhill to me. I've heard it promoted by PSIA for years, but am nowadays hearing more from PSIA about flexing to release. I think they're in the process of converting over. Any thoughts on that?

 

[KingGrump]

I guess it is true for associative phase in general, is not it? Fluency appears at autonomous stage, IMO.

Hi Alex,

Sorry if I’ve been talking pass you. No disrespect meant. Not sure I fully agree with you what you just said.

I like to equate what you are doing in the video as “test prep”. Don’t get me wrong, test prep is important but so is knowing the subject matter required (free skiing). To me, both are equally important in order to do well in an exam.

Perhaps if you have a video of your free skiing, that may help.

 

[Mike King]

I guess it is true for associative phase in general, is not it? Fluency appears at autonomous stage, IMO.

Your stiffness is directly related to the 5th fundamental. You can still be in the associative phase and not be stiff. The word that I've focused on came from Jf Beaulieu: supple. Try to approach your skiing with suppleness. Flow comes not from actively resisting the forces in the turn, or actively forcing the skis to do something, but from allowing the skis to do what you intend. Josh Fogg talks about have your muscles (in particular Tibealous Anterior) pretensioned, but pretensioned doesn't mean locked down.

 

[Mike King]

Hi Alex,

Sorry if I’ve been talking pass you. No disrespect meant. Not sure I fully agree with you what you just said.

I like to equate what you are doing in the video as “test prep”. Don’t get me wrong, test prep is important but so is knowing the subject matter required (free skiing). To me, both are equally important in order to do well in an exam.

Perhaps if you have a video of your free skiing, that may help.

There's no doubt that passing the level 3 exam requires being able to ski without thinking about it, at least in Rocky Mountain Division. It isn't about posing -- it's about showing mastery of ski performance, and that's shown by flow. You eventually need lots of miles just skiing to take that ski performance into any and every kind of terrain.

But, as @4ster said above, Alex is going to have to change his movement patterns in order to achieve the ski performance that will pass the level 3 standard. And you don't change movement patterns by doing the same thing you have always done. You have to go do the active work to learn the new patterns, first in the cognitive phase, then the associative phase, and finally attaining the autonomous execution of the movement pattern. That means depriving yourself of terrain that will bring back the old movement patterns until you've achieved something solid in ownership in easier terrain. Otherwise, you just feed the old habits.

At least that's been my experience as I've rebuilt my skiing from the ground up over the past 5 seasons.

That being said, I also have yet to pass (or take) the Level 3 exam. I do feel I am much closer to the standard than I was. And I'm now in the place where I do need a lot of free skiing to move toward autonomy.

Mike

 

[Magi]

Magi, I too use the flexion release more than the extension one. It's better for short radius turns, since it allows one to get onto high edges earlier, and these days I like to see how high an edge angle I can get in the top of the turn.... For fun .

The extension release feels a little like skating downhill to me. I've heard it promoted by PSIA for years, but am nowadays hearing more from PSIA about flexing to release. I think they're in the process of converting over. Any thoughts on that?

I think that the end goal is the exact same movement (one leg shortens the other gets longer). Whatever speaks to the student is (ideally) what gets taught.

 

[LiquidFeet]

I think that the end goal is the exact same movement (one leg shortens the other gets longer). Whatever speaks to the student is (ideally) what gets taught.

I think you are talking about long-leg-short-leg with neither preceding the other... in other words, a simultaneous action of the two independent legs.

I've worked to separate extending from flexing in time... that adds two different releases to the simultaneous one you are talking about. One of those has the extending happening a nano-second ahead of the flexing, the other features the flexing happening a nano-second ahead of the extending.

These two releases I am talking about, and hoping to get others to talk about, are characterized by one nanosecond difference in what comes first. They really don't feel the same to me. One creates cross-over, the other creates cross-under. I am getting the idea that those differences don't matter to most skiers reading here. Oh, and then there are retraction turns, which are kissing cousins to the flexion release... they are fast and feature rebound and relate to the other three but are again... different. The list goes on and on.

Do most people not like lists?

 

[mdf]

They really don't feel the same to me....cross-over .... cross-under.

I agree with this bottom line. Unfortunately I would have to try it to see if I agree with your analysis of why -- but it seems to be summer right now.

 

[Tim Hodgson]

In both cases the skis flatten, the body stops its circular motion and continues moving along on its path and crosses over the skis.

LiquidFeet: Just checking for understanding about a particular turn in a particular video. I don't see any of the above in the back-and-forth of this excellent video posted by Mike King. The body is not making a circular motion. The body is in nearly the exact same position for both the turn to the right and for the turn to the left.

Before I saw this video, I would describe this as a cross-under turn which I understood to involve guiding/steering rotation. But not now. She just sets the edge and pressures the ski and lets it jet in its edged-arc to the other side, where the rotation rapidly occurs to aim and then set the ski to its new direction. Rotation only occurs in the air.

karlo: This is now my favorite video for all the different turns which she demonstrates in beginning of the video. But check this out, when she starts skiing with her hands on her hips, she definitely LEADS with her inside ski edge. She does it like a surgeon, precisely slicing the snow, probably with only the amount of pressure necessary to keep the inside ski lead so the stupid, but powerful outside ski edge knows where to go. Her outside ski looks stupid, powerful and definitely in the passenger seat. While the outside ski tail may kick up snow, the inside ski does not. The inside ski is holding the steering wheel. Mikaela does it so emphatically that she actually has a kind of REVERSE A-FRAME with her inside knee tipping? pulling? or following her inside ankle? of the inside ski into the turn as it slices. Check it out:

Mike King and karlo thank you for the great videos. All you guys and gals are awesome for this great discussion.

What I got from these videos is that skiing really should come from the ski up. Such that the leg shortens or lengthens to ACCOMMODATE (or react) to what the ski is doing.

Traditionally, I have taught gross body movements (inputs) to affect how the skis interact with the snow (outputs). Do any of you guys and gals teach beginners or intermediates to ski from the ski (input) up (with knees, hips torso as the accommodating, resultant, outcome)?

If so, how, and what was the result?

 

[Uncle-A]

Just an observation when looking at your video and the other videos. The position of your shoulders and your arms looks different from those in the other videos. Your arms look farther away from your body than those in other videos. You seem to have your arms like you are hugging a wide barrel and the skiers in the other videos seem to keep them closer to their body and less rounded. It looks harder to keep your balance when your arms are out wide like that in the video. Also shouldn't you shoulders be square facing down hill?

 

[Magi]

I think you are talking about long-leg-short-leg with neither preceding the other... in other words, a simultaneous action of the two independent legs.

I've worked to separate extending from flexing in time... that adds two different releases to the simultaneous one you are talking about. One of those has the extending happening a nano-second ahead of the flexing, the other features the flexing happening a nano-second ahead of the extending.

These two releases I am talking about, and hoping to get others to talk about, are characterized by one nanosecond difference in what comes first. They really don't feel the same to me. One creates cross-over, the other creates cross-under. I am getting the idea that those differences don't matter to most skiers reading here. Oh, and then there are retraction turns, which are kissing cousins to the flexion release... they are fast and feature rebound and relate to the other three but are again... different. The list goes on and on.

Do most people not like lists?

I [edit - think] I can do cross-over and cross under with either a shortening first or an extension first (and I bet you can too). It's all in the magnitude/rate.