How to improve skiing?

[Magi]

An alternate concept - find skiers who are doing what you want to do. Ski with them, watch them, copy what they're doing. Ask them what they're feeling. It's very easy to get the thinking mind too involved. If you have the ability to mimic other peoples physical actions (which I think a lot of people do), you may be able to gain ground faster by monkey-see, monkey-do than by reading about it. Physical suggestion can be powerful. It engages a different part of the brain.

While solid advice generally, if your goal is to reach the L3 standard (and that's what @alexz has stated) - you have to know, understand, and be able to communicate the *why* also.

 

[Monster]

While solid advice generally, if your goal is to reach the L3 standard (and that's what @alexz has stated) - you have to know, understand, and be able to communicate the *why* also.

True - And I do also love to think and talk about mechanics.

 

[LiquidFeet]

... if your goal is to reach the L3 standard....you have to know, understand, and be able to communicate the *why* also.

Excellent point.
With the "why" in mind, I went back and edited that thing I did with Eric Lipton and alexz.

 

[Mike King]

Alexz, I've found a video of Eric Lipton (PSIA National Team) doing some turns with about the same radius as yours. Here is my comparison. Maybe this can be of use. View attachment 50014

*I've edited this for greater clarity.

LF, I think the movement is more complex than simply shortening the new inside leg to start the turn. Instead, it is a simultaneous shortening of the inside leg coupled with a tipping of the lower leg. The big difference Between Eric Lipton and the OP is upper/lower body separation. As you pointed out, the OP moves his upper body into the new turn and the lower body only catches up in the shaping and finish of the turn with the result of no separation at those critical junctures of the turn. This results in pressure being directed to the inside ski. Lipton establishes lateral separation in the initiation of the turn from the ground up. The upper body comes inside the turn because the lower legs were tipped to first establish lateral separation. That lateral separation becomes rotational separation as the skis turn and come around the corner. The result is that pressure is directed to the outside ski.

 

[LiquidFeet]

LF, I think the movement is more complex than simply shortening the new inside leg to start the turn. Instead, it is a simultaneous shortening of the inside leg coupled with a tipping of the lower leg. The big difference Between Eric Lipton and the OP is upper/lower body separation. As you pointed out, the OP moves his upper body into the new turn and the lower body only catches up in the shaping and finish of the turn with the result of no separation at those critical junctures of the turn. This results in pressure being directed to the inside ski. Lipton establishes lateral separation in the initiation of the turn from the ground up. The upper body comes inside the turn because the lower legs were tipped to first establish lateral separation. That lateral separation becomes rotational separation as the skis turn and come around the corner. The result is that pressure is directed to the outside ski.

Yes, Eric's initiation movement pattern is more complex than simply shortening the new inside leg while keeping the torso upright, and your description matches what I see. But alexz already has other movements in place. I chose not to describe them in order to KISS.

If that new inside leg gets shortened and the the torso stays upright, in addition to what alexz is now doing, these things will happen in response:
--the hip will drop on its own (no need to "make" it drop; no need to "make" it move it sideways)
--there will be angulation (the sideways V will point into the turn, not outward)
--pressure will go to the outside ski (no need to "make" pressure go to the outside ski).

My suggestion stands for these turns: work on shortening the new inside leg while keeping the torso upright (KISS). Later, refine other movements to further manage the turn's grip and shape.

 

[Mike King]

Yes, Eric's initiation movement pattern is more complex than simply shortening the new inside leg while keeping the torso upright, and your description matches what I see. But alexz already has other movements in place. I chose not to describe them in order to KISS.

If that new inside leg gets shortened and the the torso stays upright, in addition to what alexz is now doing, these things will happen in response:
--the hip will drop on its own (no need to "make" it drop; no need to "make" it move it sideways)
--there will be angulation (the sideways V will point into the turn, not outward)
--pressure will go to the outside ski (no need to "make" pressure go to the outside ski).

My suggestion stands for these turns: work on shortening the new inside leg while keeping the torso upright (KISS). Later, refine other movements to further manage the turn's grip and shape.

I guess we see different things. What I see in the OP’s movement patterns is that the legs tip because the upper body crossed over and went inside — that is, the legs follow the upper body. In fact, in many turns I see him actively shortening the new inside leg, almost, if not actually, picking it up, particularly on his left footed turns. What I don't see is active tipping of the lower leg at any point in the turn.

The up and over drill and even outside ski turns are not, in my opinion, going to do much to change his movement patterns. He's got to learn to initiate the turn by actively tipping the skis. And while it may start with rolling the ankles, what he needs, again in my opinion, is to tip the lower leg. Like in the video below.

 

[karlo]

Let's make this fun, shall we?

find skiers who are doing what you want to do. Ski with them, watch them, copy what they're doing.

Here, dance with Mikaela. Left hand holding her right hand, right hand on her waist, to the music of your choice.


Same with this one, but at 0.25 speed, which can be done on YouTube on a desktop,


Thank you Eric Harbour for filming! Thank you Mikaela for the dance!

Continuously keep your head and pelvis the same "distance" off the snow

keeping the torso upright

Ok, so you are dancing with no less than Mikaela, so do it right. Dance like Craig,


Watch his belt. Always level with the dance floor (the slope). It's level even when the leg (outside leg) is extended. Obviously, he doesn't have the benefit of (centripetal?) force to allow his flexed inside leg to go to the side. But, belt level.

And, yes, keep the torso upright and disciplined throughout. Notice the shoulders, particularly hers, Joan's, and Mikaela's. It's like they are standing on roller board, not walking or stepping. I also like the steadiness of this lady's shoulders,


To dance like this, there is a presumption of one being able to balance on one foot or another or both. You obviously can already do that on skis. Use that and dance.

And try this. Do, four lazy, less disciplined turns. Then do four as if you and Mikaela were in a dance competition. Once you've got that feeling, like you can dance, then onto the next thing. And, before long, pains in S's will be a graceful dance.

Disclosure Statement: This is offered up by a Level 1 who can't get Wedge Christies right, and past Ski at Skill Level.

 

[JESinstr]

I guess we see different things. What I see in the OP’s movement patterns is that the legs tip because the upper body crossed over and went inside — that is, the legs follow the upper body. In fact, in many turns I see him actively shortening the new inside leg, almost, if not actually, picking it up, particularly on his left footed turns. What I don't see is active tipping of the lower leg at any point in the turn.

The up and over drill and even outside ski turns are not, in my opinion, going to do much to change his movement patterns. He's got to learn to initiate the turn by actively tipping the skis. And while it may start with rolling the ankles, what he needs, again in my opinion, is to tip the lower leg. Like in the video below.

Mike, your are correct in your observations but the question that needs to be asked is why is Alex leading with the upper body? So much has been written on this forum about tipping the inside (pinke leads the way etc) . We need to focus first on tipping the outside and as most of us agree, from the bottom up. Unfortunately many misinterpret the concept of "go there" and lead with the upper body developing the bad habits. It should be "make the skis go there" and they'll take you along for the ride.

Shortening of the leg has nothing to do with this IMO unless you believe that shortening creates a "Toppling" effect. Check out your video, every one of them shortens the inside leg as a part of transitioning.

The get over it drill IMO is a great drill for stopping the upper body from "going there" it requires the com to get over and pressure the outside ski under gravity and then begin the methodical and patient tipping from the bottom up. I just posted in @Mendieta 's new thread on the value of this drill.

 

[LiquidFeet]

.... "make the skis go there" and they'll take you along for the ride. Shortening of the leg has nothing to do with this IMO unless you believe that shortening creates a "Toppling" effect....

Wait. What?
You don't "believe" that shortening the new inside leg will release the ski under it and cause toppling? Surely I'm reading this wrong.

 

[Mike King]

Mike, your are correct in your observations but the question that needs to be asked is why is Alex leading with the upper body? So much has been written on this forum about tipping the inside (pinke leads the way etc) . We need to focus first on tipping the outside and as most of us agree, from the bottom up. Unfortunately many misinterpret the concept of "go there" and lead with the upper body developing the bad habits. It should be "make the skis go there" and they'll take you along for the ride.

Shortening of the leg has nothing to do with this IMO unless you believe that shortening creates a "Toppling" effect. Check out your video, every one of them shortens the inside leg as a part of transitioning.

The get over it drill IMO is a great drill for stopping the upper body from "going there" it requires the com to get over and pressure the outside ski under gravity and then begin the methodical and patient tipping from the bottom up. I just posted in @Mendieta 's new thread on the value of this drill.

The issue I have with the up and over drill is that it is very easy to execute it incorrectly and to continue to send the upper body over FIRST instead of tipping the skis (both inside and outside, but in particular the new outside ski) FIRST leaving the upper body alone/uninvolved with the RESULT that the upper body moves inside.

Watching the video that I posted, you will see that world cuppers often move the upper body first, but they are quick to have the lower body catch up and lead early in the shaping phase of the turn. Most of us mere mortals don't have the timing and precision to execute the move that they make, and they make that move because they need an edge angle that few, if any, of us can attain. Once one has the ability to allow the lower body to lead, to establish the lateral separation between the upper and lower body in the initiation of the turn, and has the ability to move with the ski rather than away from it, then it might be okay to start with more complex moves.

Alex never really establishes separation between the upper and lower body appropriately. And it's very possible to do outside ski drills with banking rather than by tipping the lower leg. That's why I don't think that he should start with the get over it drill. In fact, Mikeala even mentions why she initially didn't like the drill.

As to shortening the new inside leg, personally I don't see it as a major focus for improvement right now. That being said, Alex needs far more dynamic range in his flexion and extension. And being able to change edges in the most flexed position will allow him to learn dynamic short turns and improve his bump skiing.

Mike

 

[LiquidFeet]

I want to know if all posting here agree to something. There are two different ways of releasing a turn that I often play around with. (There are others, too, but these two ways are what I want to discuss here if people are willing.)

The type of turn I am thinking about has these characteristics:
--The turn is "completed," with skis heading more-or-less across the fall line.
--The turn has enough speed and momentum for the release, however it is accomplished, to result in the body's mass toppling across or crossing over the skis.
--The turn is on blue or steeper terrain so that at its completion the uphill leg has to be shorter than the downhill leg.

The two ways of releasing the old turn that I am thinking of are these:
--Lengthen/extend the uphill/new outside leg (extension release, extend-to-release; skier gets tall in transition)
--Shorten/flex the downhill/new inside leg (flexion release, flex-to-release; skier stays short in transition)

In both cases, the body will topple or cross over the skis due to its momentum. This will in turn flatten the skis, then tip them onto new edges, and as a result get the new turn started.

Again, there are other things one can do to release a turn or to strengthen either of these two actions. But these two all by themselves are pretty direct and simple. I'd like to know if everyone reading here has experienced them both.

Have you? Do you favor one over the other? Do you believe one to be inferior to the other, or do you believe only one of the two actually works? Do you use each, but in different situations?

 

[JESinstr]

The issue I have with the up and over drill is that it is very easy to execute it incorrectly and to continue to send the upper body over FIRST instead of tipping the skis (both inside and outside, but in particular the new outside ski) FIRST leaving the upper body alone/uninvolved with the RESULT that the upper body moves inside.

Watching the video that I posted, you will see that world cuppers often move the upper body first, but they are quick to have the lower body catch up and lead early in the shaping phase of the turn. Most of us mere mortals don't have the timing and precision to execute the move that they make, and they make that move because they need an edge angle that few, if any, of us can attain. Once one has the ability to allow the lower body to lead, to establish the lateral separation between the upper and lower body in the initiation of the turn, and has the ability to move with the ski rather than away from it, then it might be okay to start with more complex moves.

Alex never really establishes separation between the upper and lower body appropriately. And it's very possible to do outside ski drills with banking rather than by tipping the lower leg. That's why I don't think that he should start with the get over it drill. In fact, Mikeala even mentions why she initially didn't like the drill.

As to shortening the new inside leg, personally I don't see it as a major focus for improvement right now. That being said, Alex needs far more dynamic range in his flexion and extension. And being able to change edges in the most flexed position will allow him to learn dynamic short turns and improve his bump skiing.

Mike

Funny, we are both sitting in the same church but definitely not in the same pew. Why would you justify the dissing of a drill based on the assumption that it won't be done correctly?

That aside. Flexion is important and what is even more important is where that flexion puts your COM in relation to BOS. Like you said, the world cuppers have that down pat. But Flexion is an issue for us old farts. Not being as flexible as I was in my younger years, The Get Over it drill helps build the discipline of tipping so that what flexion I still have is put to good use!

 

[JESinstr]

I want to know if all posting here agree to something. There are two different ways of releasing a turn that I often play around with. (There are others, too, but these two ways are what I want to discuss here if people are willing.)

The type of turn I am thinking about has these characteristics:
--The turn is "completed," with skis heading more-or-less across the fall line.
--The turn has enough speed and momentum for the release, however it is accomplished, to result in the body's mass toppling across or crossing over the skis.
--The turn is on blue or steeper terrain so that at its completion the uphill leg has to be shorter than the downhill leg.

The two ways of releasing the old turn that I am thinking of are these:
--Lengthen/extend the uphill/new outside leg (extension release, extend-to-release; skier gets tall in transition)
--Shorten/flex the downhill/new inside leg (flexion release, flex-to-release; skier stays short in transition)

In both cases, the body will topple or cross over the skis due to its momentum. This will in turn flatten the skis, then tip them onto new edges, and as a result get the new turn started.

Again, there are other things one can do to release a turn or to strengthen either of these two actions. But these two all by themselves are pretty direct and simple. I'd like to know if everyone reading here has experienced them both.

Have you? Do you favor one over the other? Do you believe one to be inferior to the other, or do you believe only one of the two actually works? Do you use each, but in different situations?

LF, toppling is not a description I use when talking good skiing. COM Alignment with a created and building turning force is. If one topples, one can loose control of the COM to BOS relationship. Simply put, release is the return of our mass from circular travel to straight line travel at the point you left the arc.

Stand up and raise your left heel. You weight (force) should shift to your right leg as a result. You should not topple over because you are aligned with the force of record (in this case, gravity) This why I specifically advocate (especially beginners) to first soften then shorten. Toppling infers falling and because our mass is mostly up on top, this will lead to the top goes first problems we are trying to address.

IMO we are trying to realtime align with the forces of skiing not get a jump on them.

 

[Monster]

Let's make this fun, shall we? Here, dance with Mikaela.

Yeah, I'd dance with her - j/k.

I used to watch her ski pretty often when she was 8 and 9 at the local community hill when I'd drop my older boy off to train, chatting with Eileen. That was long before she was who she is. . . Mikaela was so small then she had to cross block slalom gates over her head or she'd bounce off of them, lol. And she was crushing it even then. . .

 

[Mike King]

Funny, we are both sitting in the same church but definitely not in the same pew. Why would you justify the dissing of a drill based on the assumption that it won't be done correctly?

That aside. Flexion is important and what is even more important is where that flexion puts your COM in relation to BOS. Like you said, the world cuppers have that down pat. But Flexion is an issue for us old farts. Not being as flexible as I was in my younger years, The Get Over it drill helps build the discipline of tipping so that what flexion I still have is put to good use!

I do think we might be at least in the same row if not pew. I’ll agree to your get on it drill with the following caveat: that the objective is to roll the new outside knee through transition down and into the turn. The client should practice picking up the new inside ski. With repetition the objective of picking the new inside ski up before edge change.

Flexion is incredibly important for all of us and is one of the major differentiators between level 2, 3, trainer, examiner, and demo team member. Frankly, I think the fifth fundamental is the true separator of advanced and expert skiing.

 

[LiquidFeet]

LF, toppling is not a description I use when talking good skiing.

"Topple" is a description I use for good skiing.

Here are some more: float ... light ... weightless ... all words to describe that delightful feeling when the body moves in freefall. More: giving into gravity ... letting go of the hill ... dive!

However, I would not recommend using any of those words with an intermediate worried about breaking a leg should they release a ski. Same thing for centripetal or inertial or center of mass or base of support.

 

[KingGrump]

"Topple" is a description I use for good skiing.

Here are some more: float ... light ... weightless ... all words to describe that delightful feeling when the body moves in freefall. More: giving into gravity ... letting go of the hill ... dive!

Yes, all words that convey good feelings while skiing.

Sometimes, too much thinking is just too much thinking.

 

[karlo]

The two ways of releasing the old turn that I am thinking of are these:
--Lengthen/extend the uphill/new outside leg (extension release, extend-to-release; skier gets tall in transition)
--Shorten/flex the downhill/new inside leg (flexion release, flex-to-release; skier stays short in transition)

Have you? Do you favor one over the other?

Interesting. I don't think of either as a means to release. I think of release as something that happens as a result of angles of ankles, knees and hip, and flex or extension as being related to what I want to do with the next turn. In a stall, I think I extend, to generate downhill momentum, not from the extension, but from the subsequent drop. If I'm humming along just fine and don't want to interrupt (flow?), I flex; the rebound of the skis generate power.

Got me thinking there. But, I agree,

too much thinking

Not sure how that introspection helps.

Uh... @Mike King, which one is the fifth fundamental? They are numbered? Flexion is a fundamental? I'm going to fail for sure!

 

[Mike King]

5) Regulate the magnitude of pressure caused by ski/snow interaction.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Interesting. I don't think of either as a means to release. I think of release as something that happens as a result of angles of ankles, knees and hip, and flex or extension as being related to what I want to do with the next turn. In a stall, I think I extend, to generate downhill momentum, not from the extension, but from the subsequent drop. If I'm humming along just fine and don't want to interrupt (flow?), I flex; the rebound of the skis generate power.
Got me thinking there.

Thanks, Karlo, for responding. I must admit I didn't imagine people wouldn't think of these as releases. In both cases the skis flatten, the body stops its circular motion and continues moving along on its path and crosses over the skis.

Does anybody else have thoughts on these two?
--Lengthen/extend the uphill/new outside leg (extension release, extend-to-release; skier gets tall in transition, skis flatten)
--Shorten/flex the downhill/new inside leg (flexion release, flex-to-release, skiers stays low in transition, skis flatten)