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How to fit/align boots for duck-footed deformity

daemon

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When I'm standing up straight on flat ground, either barefooted or in ski boots, in a stance that feels neutral and lets me extend my knees forward, my feet are pointing outward. Also, when I sit down with parallel thighs and extend my knee straight forward, my foot points outward. Basically, my ankle hinges in a plane that points outward relative to the plane in which my knee hinges.

The effect on my skiing is that, in order to point my skis straight, I have to rotate my femurs slightly inward at the hip joint. This causes either an A-frame or a really uncomfortable twisting sensation in my knees, depending on how much I actively try to push my knees away from each other. Either way, no matter how far forward I shift my weight, I find it extremely hard to make a clean transition into the next turn by unweighting the old outside ski and moving my legs sideways under my body while keeping my skis parallel. I think it's preventing me from effectively skiing powder or carving. This deformity also explains why I have so much difficulty squatting or deadlifting.

Barefooted, I can supinate my foot in order to get it to point in the direction of my knee. In fact, when I first realized I'm duck-footed, and I was trying to learn how to walk with feet pointed forward, I ended up putting all of my weight on the outsides of my feet, with the balls of my feet never touching the ground.

Which makes me wonder: what if my ski boot had a custom footbed that held my foot in an artificially supinated position, with equal support under the ball and the outside of the foot while supinated? Is it possible or even advisable to do that? My three main doubts are:

(1) if that's even necessary (or if I could strengthen some muscle to rotate my tibia medially)

(2) if that would cause foot pain because of awkward pressure points or because the shell isn't designed to fit a supinated foot (I'd hate to ruin the delightfully comfy-yet-snug fit of my current boots, in which I've never felt any foot pain or discomfort even after several full days of skiing in a row)

(3) if that would make my performance even worse by making me stand on an outwardly tilted platform when my feet want to stand on a flat platform
 
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CalG

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Are you saying you can not flex at the knees while keeping heels, great toe, and knees touching one another.?

Try it while sitting on a chair.
 
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daemon

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Are you saying you can not flex at the knees while keeping heels, great toe, and knees touching one another.?

Try it while sitting on a chair.
I just tried that, and I can do it, but when I do it standing up, I feel a lot of pressure on the outsides of my feet and almost none on the balls of my feet.
 

James

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I suppose you could try and find a nos Fischer boot with Somatec. Early ones were fairly duckfooted within the boot. I believe they kept decreasing it but kept the name for a few years.

You really need to see someone who's good at this. It might take a bunch of back and forth. Sometimes the answer is opposite logic. What part of the country are you in?
 
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daemon

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I suppose you could try and find a nos Fischer boot with Somatec. Early ones were fairly duckfooted within the boot. I believe they kept decreasing it but kept the name for a few years.

You really need to see someone who's good at this. It might take a bunch of back and forth. Sometimes the answer is opposite logic. What part of the country are you in?
Now that you mention it, I watched a marketing video of Somatec, and it looks like it at least tries to address the issue I'm talking about. Which is a first.

I live in the Portland OR area but I'm currently staying in Tahoe for at least a couple more weeks. In fact I had my current boots done at Olympic Bootworks in Squaw Valley. (And I enjoyed working with them, and I love the fit of these boots (Lange RX 130 LV with Zipfit liners) -- I just wish it were easier to keep my skis parallel.)

EDIT: I also expressed these exact concerns when I had my boots fitted at Olympic Bootworks (and I even walked back and forth a few times so they could watch my gait). Granted, this was before I had the vocabulary to express it as I do now. I guess they just used their standard process to mold a custom orthotic (which they brand as "Heel Loc"), which works wonders for foot comfort but not so much for knee/ankle alignment.
 
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dovski

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Now that you mention it, I watched a marketing video of Somatec, and it looks like it at least tries to address the issue I'm talking about. Which is a first.

I live in the Portland OR area but I'm currently staying in Tahoe for at least a couple more weeks. In fact I had my current boots done at Olympic Bootworks in Squaw Valley. (And I enjoyed working with them, and I love the fit of these boots (Lange RX 130 LV with Zipfit liners) -- I just wish it were easier to keep my skis parallel.)
If you make to Seattle I recommend you go into Sturtevant's in Bellevue and see JR. He only works weekends but is one of the best boot fitters I have every come across. I had foot surgery and few years back and have issues with my other foot. He did some customer work on my boots that is nothing short of amazing he may be able to help you.
 

coops

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I was going to mention Fischer Somatec too - I think it's fairly normal for most of us to be slightly 'toe out, heel in' (whereas 'pigeon toed' is less common)... but not as much an issue as it for you it seems.


I notice that if I deliberately move my feet so they are pigeon toed (when sitting or standing), then it is less uncomfortable if I also move my knees closer together in a knock kneed stance... and moving to a bow legged stance feels worse and worse...so am wondering if cuff alignment and canting may be an option or an issue.

Would be interested to see what an experienced boot fitter has to say from fitting severe duck toed clients...

Maybe check the below.. as it's a diy method you could try (and at least if you do have to change boots after all, at least you can keep those Zipfits in the new ones)
Note - it's more correct to refer to it as cuff alignment rather than canting (in the same way that many Boot brands still refer to the minor cuff alignment adjustment in their boots as 'canting')... but here 'tis
an interesting read - start with this page and follow the link at bottom and the third page will show you the DIY method
http://www.skibootalignment.com/page7.html


If you take a button/Poma drag lift do you look knock kneed from behind? It's also referred to as 'A framed'

cuff_angle_Poma.jpg
 
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daemon

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I was going to mention Fischer Somatec too - I think it's fairly normal for most of us to be slightly 'toe out, heel in' (whereas 'pigeon toed' is less common)... but not as much an issue as it for you it seems.


I notice that if I deliberately move my feet so they are pigeon toed (when sitting or standing), then it is less uncomfortable if I also move my knees closer together in a knock kneed stance... and moving to a bow legged stance feels worse and worse...so am wondering if cuff alignment and canting may be an option or an issue.

Would be interested to see what an experienced boot fitter has to say from fitting severe duck toed clients...

Maybe check the below.. as it's a diy method you could try (and at least if you do have to change boots after all, at least you can keep those Zipfits in the new ones)
Note - it's more correct to refer to it as cuff alignment rather than canting (in the same way that many Boot brands still refer to the minor cuff alignment adjustment in their boots as 'canting')... but here 'tis
an interesting read - start with this page and follow the link at bottom and the third page will show you the DIY method
http://www.skibootalignment.com/page7.html


If you take a button/Poma drag lift do you look bow legged from behind? It's also referred to as 'A framed'

View attachment 69168
Hmm. I feel like I'm A-framed on the few surface lifts I've taken, but I haven't had any videos filmed on them. I definitely ride them with a bit of a wedge, although I thought that was just a normal way to prevent catching an inside edge.

From that page you linked:

"this website is aimed at ambitious sportsmen and women who really do want to become the best that they can be at this exciting pastime; and have even more fun in the mountains. People in this category may be relative beginners or they may be accomplished all-mountain skiers. But they will be aware that the World Cup racers they see on television, and the instructors they ski with when they have lessons, look balanced and relaxed on skis in a way that they struggle to match."

That hits really close to home. :-(
 

coops

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That hits really close to home. :-(

Well, my best friend is very "A framed" on a drag lift... and his instructor was always telling him to get his feet hip width apart... but once I stumbled on this info I realised of course his feet were wider because of his cuff alignment and his natural lower leg angles... from that same page (if my friend did force his feet hip width apart he'd be on his outside edge all the time which would be 'interesting')

"So if your knees are pressed together and your feet are wide apart, does it really matter?
Yes it really does affect your skiing, and not in a good way. That’s why instructors battle to correct the A-framed, the X-framed, and the feet-pressed-together members of their classes. And, because the root problem is almost always incorrectly canted boots, there is rarely if ever much progress made, no matter how many exotic corrective exercises are practised. These skiers are making the best of badly fitted equipment and if they were somehow to force themselves into a correct stance it would be impossible for them to ski at all. Their ‘incorrect’ stance on their ski is the way they are forced to stand by their boots. It is simple geometry."

and don't feel bad because....

"if your boots are not correctly canted you will suffer a significant handicap which will prevent you progressing easily or ever skiing as well as you could. Progress will be blocked and the root cause will not be recognised by the average ski instructor. Indeed, the better the instructor the more certain it is that they are among the fortunate few who have never suffered from serious misalignment of their boots. Never having had to adapt to a bad boot by adopting an awkward stance, they will usually assume that other people’s stance peculiarities are simply the result of poor technique. They are mistaken to hold this view, but it is easy to see why they do."
 

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