How to correct Back Seat skiing?

[KingGrump]

I think heavier snow is better to ski, personally. 1 inch of moisture content is all you need for bottomless snow.

I love cream cheese.

 

[skier]

I think heavier snow is better to ski, personally. 1 inch of moisture content is all you need for bottomless snow.

Neat. I love when people aren't snobs about the conditions. I definitely prefer the lighter stuff, but I won't complain about any snowfall. Tahoe can get some seriously heavy snow. I've seen light stuff there too, but I've also seen a couple feet of stuff heavier than I've ever experienced anywhere else, heavier than anything I've ever seen in the east. I'd be curious to know if you'd still say you prefer it if we absolutely are talking about the same thing. I've never really thought of NE snow as heavy, though on average heavier than the rockies. In my experience I would rank it this way:

1. Tahoe (thus the phrase Sierra Cement).
2. Pacific North West
3. Mid-Atlantic
4. New England
5. Utah
6. CO

Whistler often seems to have a bit of everything depending on where you are on the mountain, haven't been to other regions than listed.

 

[slowrider]

1. Tahoe (thus the phrase Sierra Cement).
2. Pacific North West
3. Mid-Atlantic
4. New England
5. Utah
6. CO

I think pnw has more consistent wet snow. Lol But yeah Tahoe has its days. Skiing it's an outdoor sport,

 

[Andy Mink]

Is it possible to be back on the skis without being "in the back seat"? Meaning there is still pressure on the tongue of the boots even though your butt is back behind the heel piece? I see racers who look way back but are obviously doing something right as they're still on the course.

 

[Josh Matta]

Is it possible to be back on the skis without being "in the back seat"? Meaning there is still pressure on the tongue of the boots even though your butt is back behind the heel piece? I see racers who look way back but are obviously doing something right as they're still on the course.

it typically occurs during transitions, think of it as a short cut to being forward in the Apex of the turn where it actually matter.

You also dont really need to "press" the tongues of yours boots. Its more that that ski/boot are pressing into you.

 

[Mike King]

Is it possible to be back on the skis without being "in the back seat"? Meaning there is still pressure on the tongue of the boots even though your butt is back behind the heel piece? I see racers who look way back but are obviously doing something right as they're still on the course.

It's not about pressure on the tongue of the boot, but that may be the outcome. Where the CoM is in relationship to the BoS depends on the distribution of mass in the body, the length of the upper body, femurs, and lower leg, and the articulation of the ankle, knee, and hip joints. In other words, it does depend on the anatomy of the individual.

That being said, one can have their hips aft of their feet and yet be centered on the skis, but it will usually require a lot of dorsiflexion in the ankles and a lot of flexion in the hip to counteract the flexion in the knee.

Mike

 

[LuliTheYounger]

Is it possible to be back on the skis without being "in the back seat"? Meaning there is still pressure on the tongue of the boots even though your butt is back behind the heel piece? I see racers who look way back but are obviously doing something right as they're still on the course.

IME as long as the upper body stays forward enough, it's not too hard to drop the butt back and still be well over the front of the ski. I think this is more heel lift/less ankle flexion than most ski instructors look for, but I like it just for showing how much drop you can get without actually dropping back.

 

[skier]

Is it possible to be back on the skis without being "in the back seat"? Meaning there is still pressure on the tongue of the boots even though your butt is back behind the heel piece? I see racers who look way back but are obviously doing something right as they're still on the course.

There are lots of pros and cons with different posture which will change the position of the COM, but this is what I think back seat is mostly about. The boot is a lever arm. Through torque it allows more pressure on either the tip or the tail than you could ever do just by standing on your feet and moving the COM back and forth. The ski turns faster pressuring the tip. Skis turn terribly with pressure on the tails. If the shins are pushing against the front of the boot, then that lever arm is applying pressure to the tip. If calves are pushing against the back of the boot, then pressure is applied to the tails.

Lots of performance skiing requires shin pressure to get the maximum performance from the skis. You tend to hear Olympic skiers talking about shin pressure, because they need maximum performance to achieve specific goals. In recreational skiing, where you can often turn wherever you want, being centered and tipping the ski is adequate and in deep powder required, and it seems to me many instructors take this approach. Also, many recreational skis turn very easily and do not do well with forward pressure, where as some other types of high performance skis will do very well with it. I believe these are the reasons you'll hear such different advice about being forward in skiing.

Here's a racer's perspective about fore/aft at 1:22

 

[geepers]

Northern Vermont skiing is better than Australia according to our instructors that work at Perisher during the summer. We for sure get more moisture that falls as snow, heck we probably get more moisture that falls as snow than anywhere in North america. BTW I dont mean snow total, I mean moisture that falls as snow.

I was just going by @jack97 's description. Oz gets more than its fair share of very ordinary conditions but what he's describing sounds horrendous.

These days I do most of my skiing in BC.

 

[Doby Man]

Is it possible to be back on the skis without being "in the back seat"? Meaning there is still pressure on the tongue of the boots even though your butt is back behind the heel piece? I see racers who look way back but are obviously doing something right as they're still on the course.

A good question getting a lot of hits. I almost always find the answer to questions like these through examination of the CoM/BoS relationship. I have a two part answer, both from the CoM/BoS relationship perspective of momentum and direction:

One: The key activating agent to your center of mass is momentum. When we manage or “pilot” our momentum in a directionally steady, vertically stable manner, we can count on it to carry our CoM through moments of weightlessness, most often characterized by being in transition. Upon release of both our CoM and/or BoS (edges), we are to have released it with the power and direction required to carry our CoM forward to the next moment of ground force pressure. This is particularly helpful should we require the upward mobility of our BoS in transition (knees rising from ground force reaction) so our CoM can remain vertically stable (low, flat) which is why a high performance backseat transition happens in the first place. So learn to release your momentum in the stable direction of down the hill, down the fall line and, until …

… Two: your BoS comes back around from a reaching extension and inclination at apex and into a flexed and angulated turn completion which is the second point about the relationship which is the direction each are taking in relation to the other. Especially if you are allowing the ski to garner rotation from your skeleton there will be more opportunity for the directional correction to the fore/aft relationship of the CoM to BoS. It is the relationship between the two and nothing else that will determine whether you are able to “pressure your tongue”. Like the BoS (feet/skis), our CoM is a tool to be wield.

Effortlessness is the key to high performance skiing. When we become savvy with the physics of the ski turn, we find that we can exploit the forces handed to us to do things like using our momentum to give us mobility in transition and static gravity of the CoM to provide the real dorsiflexion of the boot that we need rather than to stiffen our core and tighten our legs to find balance and to force the elements of the turn. Why grunt your way through the turn when you can ride for free?

 

[François Pugh]

Is it possible to be back on the skis without being "in the back seat"? Meaning there is still pressure on the tongue of the boots even though your butt is back behind the heel piece? I see racers who look way back but are obviously doing something right as they're still on the course.

Timing and intent are everything. At the right time, i.e. when no load need be applied to the skis you can be anywhere that allows you to be where you need to be when you need to be there. Typically being aft during a cross-under or flex-to-release transition turn at the moment of edge change is no problem, but being aft in a transition that relies heavily on old inside leg extension at that same point in the turn is not a good idea.

 

[geepers]

On the OP:

...how do we advance to "_________________" from back seat skiing?

Maybe consider these perspectives from Josh Foster:

and


In terms of how to know when we are correctly balanced, Josh mentions feeling the pressure under the heel as a reference. Contact between the shin and the tongue of the boot can also provide a reference point - it is very hard to be back with that contact.

Great idea to listen to Jonathan Ballou's interview (How to take your skiing from good to awesome part 2) posted elsewhere on using shin contact whilst still supporting through the heel. Here's a transcript of the relevant bit:

First part - Foot platform in boot:​

Best way to start with this is the foot/boot interface which allows us to control the ski, manage forces and get the performance we're looking for. To that we need a sound structure.

Static drill: stand up at home and do 2 body weight squats, noting where the weight is and isn't on the feet. The weight will predominantly travel through the heel - the balls of the feet will stay in contact with the ground. Now imagine lifting an extra 50kg or 100kg? Would we transfer that extra weight to the balls of the feet or leave it over the heel, over the place of power? Obviously over the heel as anything else would be weak.
This is why ski racers (who think about these things) do lots of squats from the heel.

So our structure is a tripod: our heel, the ball of the foot and the part under our little toe (the 5th metatarsal-phalanges joint).​

Setting up for transition there's going to be primary pressure on the heel, then it does move forward to the ball of the foot. But not at the expense of the heel. We don't get off the heel and push into the ball. As we move forward weight gets levered forward onto the front of the foot but it still travels through the heel. If it doesn't we lose that base of support that allows us to get the power and manage the forces.

The key here is shin/boot cuff.​

If we are going to put our weight through our heel we are going to have to get forward from somewhere else, as forward is darned important in skiing. How we move forward is more important than that we did it - if we move forward by pushing our toes down and pushing into the ball of the foot a lot it's going to result in us going back. If we stay on the heel and flex the ankle forward by engaging the Tibialis Anterior (TA) it pulls us forward so the shin contacts the boot tongue. The body mass is still supported by the heel but we now have a lever to drive the front of the ski. This is a lot more effective than pushing on the ball of the foot which only pushes into just behind the toe-piece of the binding.If we use the front of the cuff of the boot as a lever, with forward lean and ramp angles it starts to drive the front of the ski downwards which engages the tip.

Note: What about those who say they curl their toes when the going gets challenging? When we start to push the boundaries of our comfort zones (e.g. steep terrain, high speeds) we start to lose some of fine motor skills. It's not the place to gain new skills or refine the skills we have.​

Engaging the TA lifts the front of the toes. But note...it's an exercise, it's not the outcome. It's pretty hard for most people to use the TA to drive their shins forward. Two ways to drive the shin into the cuff of the boot:
1. Use our body weight and lean forward. But if we do this, our heel comes up. So it's not so effective to achieve what we want.
2. The other way is to sink downward, more into the heel and engage the TA to pull the shin forward. But this has to be learnt as it's not a big, powerful muscle. The easiest way to engage the TA is to lift the top of the toes. But as soon as we get good at this, leave the toes flat on the ground for best foot platform.


I'd draw your attention to those last two underlined bits. It doesn't have to hurt.

BTW still trying to figure all this out so I can improve my own skiing...

 

[geepers]

The ice bumps are in the video 3 -- which costs $12. I tried to cut that segment out (1 minute) but the file is too large to upload to this site.

Does JF have anything to say re bump skiing in those vids?

Always good to listen to JF on any type of skiing however I currently have enough material from JF's other vids (Projected Productions) on shorts and longs for several weeks development so I'm looking for more on bumps. He's an impressive bump skier.

 

[Mike King]

Does JF have anything to say re bump skiing in those vids?

Always good to listen to JF on any type of skiing however I currently have enough material from JF's other vids (Projected Productions) on shorts and longs for several weeks development so I'm looking for more on bumps. He's an impressive bump skier.

Unfortunately, I don't believe he really discusses bump technique or tactics. There is a lot of technique discussion and demonstration that is not in any of the Projected Productions films that I recall. Personally, I thought it was worth the coin, but some of that is that instructors/coaches like JF, who share their insights with others and try to elevate the level of skiing while making a living from it, deserve to be supported (IMO).

Mike

 

[JESinstr]

On the OP:

In terms of how to know when we are correctly balanced, Josh mentions feeling the pressure under the heel as a reference. Contact between the shin and the tongue of the boot can also provide a reference point - it is very hard to be back with that contact.

Don't get me wrong, I really like Josh and the way he presents his point of view. But, like in many productions, there are inconsistencies.
In the beginning of the "feelings" video he talks specifically about "the arch just ahead of the heel" NOT The HEEL. But when skiing, he talks about pressing his heels down.

He got it right in his first declaration. He also got it right when (while skiing) that his toes are light.

So stand up and make your toes "light" (lift them) . Where is your base of support? As Josh correctly stated in the beginning, its through the arch (pillared by the balls of the foot and the heel). Now bounce (flex). You should feel tension in the arch as it flattens between the pillars. This is what I seek to feel . And It is no coincidence that under your arch is the center of the ski's shape.

Now the shin contact leverages pressure through the boot to the center of the ski under the friction plate.

So we have two distinct places on the ski to address while skiing and both are critical.

Josh's first video is spot on and does a great job at pointing out that what we use as our bases of support (Toes and heel) when walking is not what we use in skiing. So for those of you who day after day teach beginners, isn't teaching how to create a new BOS priority one?

 

[Tim Hodgson]

JESinstr said:

isn't teaching how to create a new BOS priority one?

Yes.

Is there a difference depending on the type of turn?

Is heal down flat foot shin pressure more suited to pressure edge carving turns where the side cut of the ski is predominantly responsible for making the turn? 1

Is less pressure on the heels more weight over the balls of the feet shin pressure more suited to flatter ski brushed turns where the legs are predominantly responsible for rotating or steering the skis to make the turn? 2


1. Aka the skis turn you a la @LiquidFeet
2. Aka you turn the skis a la @LiquidFeet

 

[Eleeski]

What is wrong with back seat skiing?

The back seat can be slightly faster if you can control the turn. Too much forward is like the toe pick in skating analogies - engaging the brakes in the ski shovel.

From the back seat, you can edge without "bending" and overloading the ski edges. A smooth subtle turn is the result.

The back seat is not toxic!

OK, the reality is that the backseat is uncomfortable, scary and technically challenging. So I try to ski out of it. Maybe it takes a couple turns to get back over the skis but be patient and stay with the line. The skis will work if you don't panic.

Never load the heels or pull up on the toes! It might sound OK for stick figures but the reality is that heel loading is a blocking technique. You block when you are scared of the hill and are trying to force an overturn to slow down. Hockey stop on your heels.

Instead, load the balls of the feet. Load them so much that your boot cuffs prevent any more pressure on your feet. This leads to an attacking mindset. If you need to control the speed, arc the turn a little more. At least it's an aggressive controlled speed management.

(I tried some heel squats. Ridiculous! Use the whole foot to lift with the control coming from the ball of the foot.)

Body position is extremely dynamic - especially in bumps. Always work to get in (or back to) a comfortable balance. Use the turns to help you.

Eric

 

[geepers]

Josh was convener on a 2 day CSIA L2 course I did 2017. (Short vids are not quite the same...) Establishing BoS through lifting toes was the very first thing he went through in the course. I expect you and he would agree although I do have a question - see below.

If I understand correctly, Josh's point in the second vid re "... almost like I'm pressing heels down..." is that feeling when the heels are properly engaged as one of the pillars.

You should feel tension in the arch as it flattens between the pillars. This is what I seek to feel

Will be seeking that feeling next time I'm on skis!


The bit I have the question about is this:

Now the shin contact leverages pressure through the boot to the center of the ski under the friction plate.

I'm trying to visualise this as forces from shin contact (pushing on front of boot as per JB) and I can't get any of the force vectors to act through the ski center. Or do you mean something different?

 

[geepers]

JESinstr said:

Yes.

Is there a difference depending on the type of turn?

Is heal down flat foot shin pressure more suited to pressure edge carving turns where the side cut of the ski is predominantly responsible for making the turn? 1

Is less pressure on the heels more weight over the balls of the feet shin pressure more suited to flatter ski brushed turns where the legs are predominantly responsible for rotating or steering the skis to make the turn? 2


1. Aka the skis turn you a la @LiquidFeet
2. Aka you turn the skis a la @LiquidFeet

Interestingly in the CSIA L2 course I did with Josh he taught us the lifted toes, heels engaged (I'm gonna term that "using heels as one of the pillars supporting the arch") as a means to get correctly balanced on the ski centers in order to pivot the skis for what the CSIA call Intermediate Parallel (IP) turns. I supposed these could be termed brushed turns - ski track will be wider. In these types of turns, at transition, the skis are pivoted to some degree across the direction of travel. If we are balanced over the center of the skis on that point just in front of the arches it is very easy to pivot the skis (by rotating the legs in the hip sockets) when they become flat on the snow.

This fits with the second of the CSIA tech ref points: "Turning is lead by the lower body..." And the pivot also results in separation of upper/lower body allowing angulation.

In CSIA IP it is important not to simply slide the heels. Ideally the pivoting and the ongoing "brushing" is done around the ski center. So the tips go inside the radius of the turn and the tails are outside. The intent is not to pivot/brush around a CG towards the tips - which is what is likely to happen when skiing on the toes.

There's another bit to that 2nd CSIA Tech ref point. ".... and the ski design." More completely the point reads: "Turning is lead by the lower body and the ski design."

The ski design is what's used in what CSIA term Advanced Parallel, a purely carving turn. The turn is made using tipping and ski shape. The aim is not to pivot the skis. And here the fore/aft balance is just as critical. Same use of heels as pillars on foot's BoS applies and used to control the CG through the arc of the turn.


Note: this is my understanding at this point in time and I'm happy to be corrected by more knowledgeable folk - that's not eliminated many people!

 

[LuliTheYounger]

This might be a totally goofy question that someone's already looked at, but - how much is forward lean, especially the factors from the knee down, actually just a matter of controlling tension in the calf muscle?

I had to read a bunch of studies on the behavior of the Achilles tendon for a research paper, and the thing that struck me, coming from a series of "heels down" sports, is that plantar flexion is mechanically the natural state of the AT. The walking gait that we're really designed for relies on the fact that the AT stores a lot of elastic energy & starts pulling back at a certain angle. It made me think a little bit about how much I actually actively dorsiflex, or whether I'm just... not plantar flexing, & letting the AT hang out in that relatively unnatural lengthened position, if that makes any sense.

It just struck me because I feel like we talk a lot about active dorsiflexion coming out of the tibialis anterior, but I almost wonder if passively allowing dorsiflexion is really doing a lot of the work and maybe getting overlooked because it doesn't feel like we're doing anything?