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razie

Sir Shiftsalot
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Pull your toes up. Helps close the ankle.
I've never actually liked that one and it hasn't resonated with me... I don't think its' assumed result is a given: you can pull the toes up while pushing the boot forward...

I prefer to dig my heels back. Seems more useful and functional. That will not only bring the shin forward but also seems to leave the foot free to sometimes pedal and compensate that way, as needed, keeps the skis back so I'm forward etc...
 

Doby Man

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Mostly New England
I am asking because it really is the [and my] elephant in the room that needs to be acknowledged and corrected. So I have revised [in brackets] a quote from @Doby Man to start what could be a very helpful discussion for me and possibly for others and for our students:Oh, and to change it from a corrective perspective/progression to a developmental perspective/progression, how do we advance to "_________________" from back seat skiing?

Tim, while there may be a fine line between a correctional and developmental perspective, because “back seat riding” has never been part of any developmental progression, I think that a correctional approach would be best. What that means is that while many other aspects continue to need programing, they cannot move forward with their programming until current habits of flawed movement patterns associated with the more basic movements are addressed. If more refined movements up the skill pyramid are allowed to develop over flawed fundamentals, everything just gets worse and development becomes deadended. There is just no “schmoozing” over the fundamentals (of anything) on the way to success. While there may be some truth to the efficacy of teaching new patterns over bad ones without too much focus on the bad ones, that is not always possible.

A correctional approach requires taking backward steps that can be difficult to swallow. As an example, if you learn to pole plant in the back seat, guess what? You may have to take a step back by skiing without the poles altogether and then relearning a new pole plant after fundamental corrections are made. Otherwise, due to their association, that pole plant will help to “keep” you in the back seat. That said, many skiers do not pass the intermediate stage of dev because because their CoM is almost always too far behind their BoS resulting in a probable fact that every group lesson ever taught at any level has included discussion over the fore/aft relationship between skier’s CoM and BoS, whatever the language used. It is not only in every first time beginner lesson but also a daily focus of top WC racers, all of whom pride themselves on the fundamentals and this one specifically. The very best racers in the world loose races due to getting caught in the back seat on just one damn turn. Other than memorizing their line, I bet it is the most common pre race focus in the WC starthouse bullpen. The thing about the fundamentals of any discipline is that their concern tends to span all ability levels. They are both the first and the furthest of concerns.

The relationship between the CoM and BoS is latent to anyone who does things like getting up out of a chair, walking, climbing and descending a staircase, etc. It can really be as simple as training a skier to think about what they already know how to do but while skiing. I think that there are a lot of people who simply have trouble maintaining such a focus while they are sliding down a hill and all the distraction that comes with it. I think an intellectual comfort needs to be developed so the mind has freedom to think more clearly. Removing issues such as poor boot fit (especially fore/aft geometry), being over terrained, being over skied by friends, getting too excited, poor visual focus and vision retention while moving in the skiing environment, etc., is very helpful. Also, many people approach the sport of skiing as a recreational, vacation activity without the slightest idea of any conceptual approach and, before they recognize the need, have already ingrained defensive movement habits, almost all of which include being in the back seat.

Every day analogies work best. I like the cutting wood analogy for its carving tool relevance. Are you going to use a saw on a piece of wood while sitting in a recliner? I tried and it is VERY difficult. Or are you going to stand up, put your beer down, get your center of mass over the piece of wood and line the blade up between your CoM and the piece of wood? Most people already know this, if not only on an instinctual basis. Skiing in the back seat is the equivalent of trying to cut that piece of wood while sitting in the recliner and, probably, with beer in hand. After all, they started skiing while on vacation. There is too much talk about how learning skiing is very difficult because it is non intuitive and goes against our instincts. Based on the above logistics, I don’t agree. Teaching people how to ski isn’t about teaching new instincts, it is about teaching them to use the instincts they already have.

That said, for the average expert level skier, the fore/aft position of the CoM over the BoS is always a simple yet critical focus during a change in terrain or while on any challenging terrain. It is good to remember that the faster we are moving and the steeper the slope, the smaller or shorter our conceptual base of support theoretically becomes and, non-theoretically, the finer control that will be required to manage it.
 
Thread Starter
TS
T

Tim Hodgson

PSIA Level II Alpine
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Aug 20, 2016
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688
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Kirkwood, California
Holy crap! You just explained why expert skiing often comes so easy to adults who learned as a child - they independently developed an original CoM/BoS skiing instinct.

While those like me who learned/learn as adults often need to transfer CoM/BoS instincts from other, secondary, activities to achieve proper CoM/BoS balance while skiing.
 

LuliTheYounger

I'm just here to bother my mom
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Sep 1, 2017
Posts
461
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SLC
I've never actually liked that one and it hasn't resonated with me... I don't think its' assumed result is a given: you can pull the toes up while pushing the boot forward...

I prefer to dig my heels back. Seems more useful and functional. That will not only bring the shin forward but also seems to leave the foot free to sometimes pedal and compensate that way, as needed, keeps the skis back so I'm forward etc...

I'm not 100% but I think pulling the toe up mainly works if the heel is already back, otherwise it's too easy to pull the knee angle open and launch yourself into the backseat? I haven't tested it in a bit but I seem to remember being very, uh, inventive with the phrase "toes up" as a kid.
 

Rod9301

Making fresh tracks
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Joined
Jan 11, 2016
Posts
2,474
Tim, while there may be a fine line between a correctional and developmental perspective, because “back seat riding” has never been part of any developmental progression, I think that a correctional approach would be best. What that means is that while many other aspects continue to need programing, they cannot move forward with their programming until current habits of flawed movement patterns associated with the more basic movements are addressed. If more refined movements up the skill pyramid are allowed to develop over flawed fundamentals, everything just gets worse and development becomes deadended. There is just no “schmoozing” over the fundamentals (of anything) on the way to success. While there may be some truth to the efficacy of teaching new patterns over bad ones without too much focus on the bad ones, that is not always possible.

A correctional approach requires taking backward steps that can be difficult to swallow. As an example, if you learn to pole plant in the back seat, guess what? You may have to take a step back by skiing without the poles altogether and then relearning a new pole plant after fundamental corrections are made. Otherwise, due to their association, that pole plant will help to “keep” you in the back seat. That said, many skiers do not pass the intermediate stage of dev because because their CoM is almost always too far behind their BoS resulting in a probable fact that every group lesson ever taught at any level has included discussion over the fore/aft relationship between skier’s CoM and BoS, whatever the language used. It is not only in every first time beginner lesson but also a daily focus of top WC racers, all of whom pride themselves on the fundamentals and this one specifically. The very best racers in the world loose races due to getting caught in the back seat on just one damn turn. Other than memorizing their line, I bet it is the most common pre race focus in the WC starthouse bullpen. The thing about the fundamentals of any discipline is that their concern tends to span all ability levels. They are both the first and the furthest of concerns.

The relationship between the CoM and BoS is latent to anyone who does things like getting up out of a chair, walking, climbing and descending a staircase, etc. It can really be as simple as training a skier to think about what they already know how to do but while skiing. I think that there are a lot of people who simply have trouble maintaining such a focus while they are sliding down a hill and all the distraction that comes with it. I think an intellectual comfort needs to be developed so the mind has freedom to think more clearly. Removing issues such as poor boot fit (especially fore/aft geometry), being over terrained, being over skied by friends, getting too excited, poor visual focus and vision retention while moving in the skiing environment, etc., is very helpful. Also, many people approach the sport of skiing as a recreational, vacation activity without the slightest idea of any conceptual approach and, before they recognize the need, have already ingrained defensive movement habits, almost all of which include being in the back seat.

Every day analogies work best. I like the cutting wood analogy for its carving tool relevance. Are you going to use a saw on a piece of wood while sitting in a recliner? I tried and it is VERY difficult. Or are you going to stand up, put your beer down, get your center of mass over the piece of wood and line the blade up between your CoM and the piece of wood? Most people already know this, if not only on an instinctual basis. Skiing in the back seat is the equivalent of trying to cut that piece of wood while sitting in the recliner and, probably, with beer in hand. After all, they started skiing while on vacation. There is too much talk about how learning skiing is very difficult because it is non intuitive and goes against our instincts. Based on the above logistics, I don’t agree. Teaching people how to ski isn’t about teaching new instincts, it is about teaching them to use the instincts they already have.

That said, for the average expert level skier, the fore/aft position of the CoM over the BoS is always a simple yet critical focus during a change in terrain or while on any challenging terrain. It is good to remember that the faster we are moving and the steeper the slope, the smaller or shorter our conceptual base of support theoretically becomes and, non-theoretically, the finer control that will be required to manage it.
How true
I have to focus on steep terrain, narrow, on pulling my feet back so i can stay forward. That's what i think before i start a run.
 

jack97

Out on the slopes
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Jul 7, 2017
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Classifications of ice:
1. Blue/grey ice like this:

I've never seen actual moguls made of this type of ice probably because it needs deep melting and compaction so the bumpy bits don't survive.

In the East and Northeast, we get freeze and thaw periods, sometime with prolong non crystalline precipitation events. This can cause a run off through the bumps where some get enough accumulation and gets trapped in the troughs. I have seen (and skied) bumps where the troughs have frozen ice wells and they where the greyish type. You either slide across them or you ski a higher line assuming the rest of the bumps has enough granularity to get an edge. .
 

François Pugh

Skiing the powder
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As for eastern skiing: Years ago, when I was only really interested in making (very) high speed turns and trying to get some speed thrills, I recall that once I was feeling tired, perhaps too tired to be risking my life with such antics, I would shut it down, but not stop skiing; I would head over to the moguls. I also only skied weekends, because the hill was about an hour and a half away, and I worked a regular day shift during the week. By the time I got to the moguls, thousands of skiers had hit the moguls. The back of every mogul was glare ice, the troughs were glare ice, but the front of the moguls had snow on them (except for the Saturdays that followed a week of rain and freezing rain - then everything was ice).

Now that I like it all, I have found the moguls are usually in prime shape in the mornings. Who knew?
 

geepers

Skiing the powder
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Wanaka, New Zealand
In the East and Northeast, we get freeze and thaw periods, sometime with prolong non crystalline precipitation events. This can cause a run off through the bumps where some get enough accumulation and gets trapped in the troughs. I have seen (and skied) bumps where the troughs have frozen ice wells and they where the greyish type. You either slide across them or you ski a higher line assuming the rest of the bumps has enough granularity to get an edge. .

I generally suggest North Americans visit Australia in the warmer months for the sun and the surf rather than for a ski holiday. But it seems like you'd generally get much better skiing than that in Australia.

(Actually, visit Oz any time - please spend lots and help improve our balance of payments given all the skiers we export every northern winter...)
 

Josh Matta

Skiing the powder
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Dec 21, 2015
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Northern Vermont skiing is better than Australia according to our instructors that work at Perisher during the summer. We for sure get more moisture that falls as snow, heck we probably get more moisture that falls as snow than anywhere in North america. BTW I dont mean snow total, I mean moisture that falls as snow.
 

skier

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As for eastern skiing: Years ago, when I was only really interested in making (very) high speed turns and trying to get some speed thrills, I recall that once I was feeling tired, perhaps too tired to be risking my life with such antics, I would shut it down, but not stop skiing; I would head over to the moguls. I also only skied weekends, because the hill was about an hour and a half away, and I worked a regular day shift during the week. By the time I got to the moguls, thousands of skiers had hit the moguls. The back of every mogul was glare ice, the troughs were glare ice, but the front of the moguls had snow on them (except for the Saturdays that followed a week of rain and freezing rain - then everything was ice).

Now that I like it all, I have found the moguls are usually in prime shape in the mornings. Who knew?

As we compete to see who's seen the crappiest conditions, I'll say that if the moguls are in prime shape in the mornings, then you have pretty good conditions. Rock hard, refrozen slush is absolutely the toughest conditions until the sun can soften them up. At Squaw they used to close Moseley's run on those mornings, because it was just too dangerous. But, after the sun hits them for a few hours, it's total bliss. It's funny how you can go from the absolute worst skiing to nearly the absolute most enjoyable skiing (without powder) in just a matter of an hour or so. I don't even bother trying to show up too early after cold nights in the spring. I check the temps and cloud cover and plan accordingly. CO doesn't seem to have this refrozen slush problem. As best I can figure, it's too dry, so there's not enough water mixed in with the snow to refreeze into solid clumps.
 

dbostedo

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Northern Vermont skiing is better than Australia according to our instructors that work at Perisher during the summer. We for sure get more moisture that falls as snow, heck we probably get more moisture that falls as snow than anywhere in North america. BTW I dont mean snow total, I mean moisture that falls as snow.
I don't know about that... Mt. Baker is in possibly the snowiest mountain range in the world. And from what I understand it can be pretty heavy snow. A list of highest snow- water equivalent resorts would be interesting.
 

SkierGolferNH

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Here are two good simple drills to try with an instructor. (Be careful, some SS don't allow skiing backwards)

On an easy green with an instructor skiing backwards directly in front of you. Do some easy wedge turns with the instructor holding a ski pole by the basket end and you hold it by the grip end. The point is for you to PUSH the instructor downhill while skiing. You physically can not do it if you are in the back seat. (Do it in your office right now, stand facing a wall and try to push it and see if you can push while leaning back. You will see how much forward you have to be.)

Another drill to get the feeling of being forward is to hold a ball while skiing and throw it via a chest pass to someone downhill.

The nice thing about both these drills is that you actually focus on something other than your skiing so the forward movement comes naturally.
 

KingGrump

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CO doesn't seem to have this refrozen slush problem. As best I can figure, it's too dry, so there's not enough water mixed in with the snow to refreeze into solid clumps.

Sierra cement vs Champagne powder.
 

skier

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I don't know about that... Mt. Baker is in possibly the snowiest mountain range in the world. And from what I understand it can be pretty heavy snow. A list of highest snow- water equivalent resorts would be interesting.

https://snowbrains.com/top-10-snowfall-averages-in-north-america/

http://jandeproductions.com/ski-areas/

Josh, what do you mean by moisture that falls as snow? Do you mean snow making? Dense snow isn't necessarily a great advertisement, though it can give a deep base that lasts. The Pacific has very heavy, dense snow and the most accumulation as well, but still the conditions don't come close to the Rockies, too many thaw-freeze cycles.
 

Josh Matta

Skiing the powder
Pass Pulled
Joined
Dec 21, 2015
Posts
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Here are two good simple drills to try with an instructor. (Be careful, some SS don't allow skiing backwards)

On an easy green with an instructor skiing backwards directly in front of you. Do some easy wedge turns with the instructor holding a ski pole by the basket end and you hold it by the grip end. The point is for you to PUSH the instructor downhill while skiing. You physically can not do it if you are in the back seat. (Do it in your office right now, stand facing a wall and try to push it and see if you can push while leaning back. You will see how much forward you have to be.)

Another drill to get the feeling of being forward is to hold a ball while skiing and throw it via a chest pass to someone downhill.

The nice thing about both these drills is that you actually focus on something other than your skiing so the forward movement comes naturally.


The act of moving down the hill and pushing someone down the hill are not same thing.
 

SkierGolferNH

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The act of moving down the hill and pushing someone down the hill are not same thing.

I didn't say they were the same thing. They are two things. But moving down the hill WHILE you are pushing someone down the hill yields remarkable results.
 

mdf

entering the Big Couloir
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A total side-note:

"like skiing on a coral reef"

Coral reef is the usual name for something else -- melt, sun cupping, refreeze cycles leading to a hard, near-ice surface with random short-period height variations in the four to six inch range. @James and I skied a lot of it last spring at A-Basin when we wanted to try skis in really bad conditions. We also dragged other victims to that region a few times, notably @Lady_Salina . She convinced me of the stability advantage of wide arms in those conditions. (James was doing it too, but why would I believe him? ogsmile)
 

Josh Matta

Skiing the powder
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https://snowbrains.com/top-10-snowfall-averages-in-north-america/

http://jandeproductions.com/ski-areas/

Josh, what do you mean by moisture that falls as snow? Do you mean snow making? Dense snow isn't necessarily a great advertisement, though it can give a deep base that lasts. The Pacific has very heavy, dense snow and the most accumulation as well, but still the conditions don't come close to the Rockies, too many thaw-freeze cycles.

I think heavier snow is better to ski, personally. 1 inch of moisture content is all you need for bottomless snow.
 

dbostedo

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https://snowbrains.com/top-10-snowfall-averages-in-north-america/

http://jandeproductions.com/ski-areas/

Josh, what do you mean by moisture that falls as snow? Do you mean snow making? Dense snow isn't necessarily a great advertisement, though it can give a deep base that lasts. The Pacific has very heavy, dense snow and the most accumulation as well, but still the conditions don't come close to the Rockies, too many thaw-freeze cycles.
He means the most equivalent water... i.e. if you melted down all the snow, where would you have the most water. 1000 inches of very light snow doesn't contain as much water as 500 inches of heavy stuff.
 

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