How to correct Back Seat skiing?

[Tim Hodgson]

I am asking because it really is the [and my] elephant in the room that needs to be acknowledged and corrected. So I have revised [in brackets] a quote from @Doby Man to start what could be a very helpful discussion for me and possibly for others and for our students:

[What] is helpful for people with back seat issues such as the advance intermediate/emerging expert making their first deep retraction turns which, due to a lack of mobility and/or correct timing regarding momentum management, puts them in the back seat during transition and into turn phase one from which they need to recover … repetitively[?]

Oh, and to change it from a corrective perspective/progression to a developmental perspective/progression, how do we advance to "_________________" from back seat skiing?

 

[David Chaus]

As a visual check, my TD suggested/noted he would like to see my femur/upper leg closer to perpendicular to the slope, ohterwise I was flexing my knees more than my ankles and therefore sitting back a bit. When I see a pic or video of myself, I can easily see when I need to work on this.

I think they key is ankle flexion. For dry land, I work with a wobble board to strengthen my ankle flexion, as well as the stretch my ankles around a range of movement, fore/aft and side to side.

When skiing I sometimes like to visualize my knees as moving forward, like headlights illuminating the direction I’m moving. It’s not really about the knees flexing (which they will do) but about the knees moving forward, which is a result of ankle flexion.

Then there is the matter of a strong core, integrated with the fore/aft movements of the ankle/knee system, so that the upper body doesn’t lag behind the lower body.

Shoulder over knees over toes. Or even, Shoulders Over Knees Over Toepiece Of Binding. SOKOTOB. I like acronyms. I should trademark that one. Or simplify it, SKOT.

Admittedly I’m still working on this myself, this is simply how I’ve conceptualized it for myself.

 

[Philpug]

Two terms with trying to get forward are commonly said but don't always translate to positive results.

"Hands forward". Many times that stands the skier up and does not get them forward and can still allow them to get back. "Elbows Forward" will get the hands forward...and the body forward in more of an attack position.

"Bend the knees" (or bend zee knees for the Euros). If someone is very rigid or in a boot too stiff, they can still bend the knees but the butt sinks back, thus getting the weight back. "Bend (or close) the ankles" by closing the ankles, the knee will bend but again will keep you mass forward.

 

[Viking9]

Phil I think we could have a thread , maybe this one to talk about backseat and being ,,back.
In my opinion most slalom racers and advanced skiers start out towards the front of their skis but as soon as the course changes to the steep section or the run starts to get steeper most racers and advanced skiers will start to ski the middle/back of their skis with their knees bent and their butts way over the back of the heel of their binding in the middle of their turn, still photos will usually back up what I’m saying.

 

[skier]

It seems I often have a different take, so here it is. Let's just assume that to be forward you'll have some flex in your boot with some tongue pressure. Lots of good people talk about ankle flexion like Chaus. Here's the thing that hangs me up about that. If you put on your ski boot and hold your foot in the air, then try to flex the boot using ankle flexion, you'll hardly move that tongue at all, so that means that using your muscles to close your ankles isn't what actually closes the ankles on the slope. Next, lots of good coaches will shout "hands forward", but it's also possible to be back even with your hands forward, so that phrase must be more like a mental reminder rather than what it actually takes to get forward. I think it's hard to get forward with straight legs, but you can also be back with bent knees. So, what does a skier really do to get forward? In my humble opinion, it's pulling the feet back, and that's done with the powerful glutes and hamstrings.

 

[Doug Briggs]

Without a video, these are just suggested ways to get out of the backseat. What might work for @Tim Hodgson may be completely different that what has been suggested. He may not be able to do some of these things depending on his equipment setup. For instance, flexing the ankles and/or bending the knees could be impossible because of a too stiff boot.

 

[François Pugh]

Different strokes for different folks. What clicks the light switch for one person is often different from what works for someone else.
Close the ankle.
Move forward.
Pull the feet back.
Knees to skis.

Also, sadly, sometimes success leads to failure; pressuring the front pushes one to the back.

IIRC closing the ankle worked for me, even though the ankle closing required momentum and not hamstring strength, but I could be wrong; it was so long ago.

BTW my boots are very stiff.

 

[slowrider]

Elbows in front of ribs.
Hips aligned with arches.
Keep your upper body erect.
Flex through transition.
YMMV

 

[Fishbowl]

I would be interested to know why the OP thinks he is in the back seat. Did someone tell him so, is it a self diagnosis based on how he feels, or is there something in his skiing that suggests his weight is inappropriately back. It can be very easy to misdiagnose oneself, even with video. Or perhaps the question should be to identify what part of his technique he wants to improve by moving forwards?

Signs and symptoms are easily confused.

 

[CalG]

I'm old school and try to pressure the ski tips (front)

I do this by keeping my hands and head leading the way while bending the knees and keeping my torso rather upright.

If I don't do these things actively, I end up in the back seat.

So the efforts are counter to my tendencies

 

[T-Square]

Pull your toes up. Helps close the ankle.

 

[Tip Nippley]

It could be something like this, OR intent OR boot set up, OR someone tells you you're back because of the "way you look" without any real idea of what you are doing and why you are doing it, OR something like not activating the posterior chain and glutes / hammies OR simply a matter of timing (DIRT) etc. IMHO, probably a mixture of the above.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

If it's my student I am going to start with drills to see if he can balance on his skis or not. I might start with side slipping. Might move on to hockey stops and some form of a pivot slip if it seem possible for them. The sideslip itself is usually enough to find their center. Then on easy terrain, try to ski from that new place. Other drills, on flatter ground, picking up inside ski. Javelin turn. Javelin turn is key because being able to turn the skis separate from the body is a big part of remaining in balance.

 

[Viking9]

To me , in the videos you can see the easier the slope the the more pressure on the tongue of their boots and then the opposite as soon as it gets tougher.

 

[Tip Nippley]

Why doesn't Hirscher's upper body match his lower leg angle? He must be back. hahaha Just kidding, obviously. Although, it does makes a point that things like body shape, strength / posterior chain activation, intent, boot setup, and someone assuming something about your skiing without a clue about the previous possible causes creates dogma.

 

[karlo]

Oh, and to change it from a corrective perspective/progression to a developmental perspective/progression, how do we advance to "_________________" from back seat skiing?

I am learning how to teach. So, as a challenge, I am responding without reading replies.

How do we advance to “bump skiing”. Retract to absorb the bump. Keep skis on snow as we go over the bump. Helpful hint: Point tips down as we enter the backside of the mogul.

 

[Tim Hodgson]

The idea of this thread was not to focus only on me, but on back seat skiing in general.

Maybe my concerns could help others, I can't be the only back seat somewhat all mountain skier.

First I like the idea of bending the ankles to stay forward.

David I will memorize and practice SOKOTOB. If I practice a "Stance" as a goal I can practice to maintain or to return to that Stance in Dynamic skiing. Without a goal I am lost. Perfect practice makes perfect skiing. My practice has been clueless or more accurately too many clues to chase.

skier maybe I couldn't do it or maybe I could do it but saw little effect or it hurt too much to do it enough to get an effect. But lifting my toes just hurts. And I can't bend my boots to close my ankles by bending my toes, so I gave up on that method. Thank you for your "boots in the air try to close the ankle" proof. On the other hand I can close my ankle by moving my CoM over my BoS. Or... (see below).

Tip the video is excellent. But does not apply to me. I am not and have never been an athlete like those guys. But thanks for posting it, because I will follow Reilly's blog.

Doug "it is very possible that flexing the ankles ... could be impossible because of a too stiff boot." I have some Lange Banshee's which I thought were too flexible so I am in old Lange L10 racing boots. The are made on the same last, so I am going to try the Banshee's with my liner and foot bed. See below.

François I have stiff boots. See below.

karlo I can ski pretty much the entire mountain, except ... the bumps. So, this saying applies to me: "You can't ski, and the bumps prove it.." I have been told that my boot is too stiff, and that when I get forward the bump pushes me back and I hobby horse back and forth. Maybe, but I bet if I was balanced forward, I could manage the boots. For Christ's sake I weigh 206 lbs.

skier I think powerfully pulling both feet back is probably allot of what I am lacking. Conceptually It does seem to me that pulling the feet back could put my BoS under my CoM quickly which could allow my 206 lbs. CoM to flex the boot to close the ankle...

What do you see in your back seat skiing students?

How do you deal with your students like me or not like me?

 

[Bolder]

For me, tired = backseat. How do I know? When my toes start hitting my boot in transition. When I'm tired my arms drop and I don't flex knees/hips enough.

My personal remedies are an old drill that helps balance and focus. I hold up both arms, palms up, then balance the poles across them. You have to be in equilibrium or the poles will fall. For some reason it also keeps me headed down the fall line. You can't look at the poles, but if I look ahead and keep the balance by feel it helps to re-center me. Also, and this sounds a bit obvious...I'll stop for a few minutes, have a drink, take off boots and wiggle my toes, flex ankles, stretch achilles tendons, then re-do boots. A lot of it is just getting my head back into a more aggressive mode.

Pulling back feet doesn't work for me.

 

[jack97]

I think they key is ankle flexion. For dry land, I work with a wobble board to strengthen my ankle flexion, as well as the stretch my ankles around a range of movement, fore/aft and side to side.

In my humble opinion, it's pulling the feet back, and that's done with the powerful glutes and hamstrings.

Past several years, I use the balance board below, the turbo starter kit version. Its affordable, (the only) narrow stance with a small fast ball. It helps keep me centered and balanced. Not sure what part it corrected, ankle range, my motor skills or strengthening the glutes and support muscles to keep me in balance. Most likely all three of these.

 

[Paul S.]

Tim, you said, "I have been told my boot is too stiff.."; why ski in boots that are too stiff? If the boots impede ankle flexion, it's time for a change. What are the benefits of the "too stiff" boot?