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James

Out There
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From Fistful of Moguls, mid 1990's Glen Plake:
"Everybody that's ever been to Squaw Valley has counted to three and hurled their bodies off Palisades...Big deal!

What is a big deal is mogul skiing. You don't buy it, you don't fake it. It's real. It's alive. And if you want to find the best skiers on the mountain, you might just want to take a good hard look at who's skiing the bumps."

Go to 4:00 for the segment. 4:35 is the start of Glen's rant on gimmicks.
 

Alexzn

Ski Squaw
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Don't know where to start on this. I skied manky bumps with zentune last weekend. We were both on FIS SL's.... :roflmao:

Alex, don't let the interwebz make you all bombastic and stuff.

:beercheer:

You bet! I’d also venture to take a guess that you and zentune look look great in any terrain on any ski, short, long, fat, or skinny. I didn’t say that everyone who skis short skis in bumps has poor technique, that would be a ridiculous statement.
 

Alexzn

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Alex, this is the kind of comment that makes me a little pissy. The implication is that @tball and those of us who think he has a useful point must have poor technique. Have you skied with us? If not, then maybe just go a little easier on the pronouncements. We've been around a while. We can hold our own. If you're a better bump skier, great; it doesn't mean that everyone else is operating under a heavy dose of the Dunning-Kruger Effect. Video coming when last weekend's videographer gets her act together and uploads the incriminating evidence. ;)

No, that’s just not what I said. What I said was that proper technique is the main determinant of the bumps performance and short ski length is not a substitute for poor technique. Don’t agree with that statement?

Don’t take everything personally, especially what people say on the interwebz.
 

CalG

Out on the slopes
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Feb 5, 2017
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Vt
From my own experience, short skis are transparent. neither here nor there.
I ski 177s daily, and I'm 6 foot and 170#. I call that short, But I don't need any trouble when hauling sleds etc.

When I free ski, I enjoy the bigger (longer) boards. 185-195 cm. (used to be 203s) Especially on steeper terrain, off the groom. It's something about the feel of driving and riding the ski. Suggesting a direction, with authority. I can only like it to horsemanship. The horse and the big ski both have a will. Who is master?
There is something returned in keeping one's seat.
 

surfsnowgirl

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Magic Mountain, Vermont
I took skis with me when I was car shopping.

Me too. Showed up to the Subaru dealership with 4 pairs of skis. Once I realized those fit in diagonally fine with only 1 seat folded down and still room for the cooler behind the drivers seat on the floor and room for 1/2 people or stuff in non folded down back seat I realized I'd found my car.
 

Tony S

I have a confusion to make ...
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No, that’s just not what I said. What I said was that proper technique is the main determinant of the bumps performance and short ski length is not a substitute for poor technique. Don’t agree with that statement?

I agree that technique is the main determinant.

I just think that @tball is totally on the money in pointing out that A) Shorter skis can help people get on top of their bump game, at least in terms of gaining enough confidence and enjoyment to stay in it for the long term, and B) That there is a pervasive cultural tone on these boards and review sites that encourages people - especially guys - to be on skis that are on the long side for the conditions they actually ski day to day. I don't understand why people are pushing back so hard on these ideas.

Shorter skis can be super fun for skiers of any ability, including superb ones. You would never guess this from reading Blister. Weird.

People tend to conflate the idea that for an intermediate a short ski can be a confidence booster in moguls (true) with the idea that short skis are only for intermediates (false). Blister, TGR, etc. perpetuate this mistake, to the detriment of their audiences.
 

Noodler

Sir Turn-a-lot
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Selecting ski sizing is a balancing act between the ski width and the ski length. To that end, there is the ski's surface area that gets little discussion on this forum, however, that's how I actually track my quiver and choose skis for the day (my quiver is ordered by surface area). I wish the manufacturers would publish the actual surface area measurements because it's actually quite complex to calculate this number after-the-fact. Using only the sidecut dimensions and base length provides just a rough approximation of the actual value, but it is still relevant for comparisons across a quiver. Surface area provides a another way to match the ski to the purpose.

Discussions/decisions about ski length and width become more clear for me when I consider the "extremes". Regarding ski length, a very short ski is going to stress my fore/aft balance abilities and will have less float while being more maneuverable. A very long ski will be more forgiving of my fore/aft balance mistakes and smooth out the variations in terrain/conditions (this longer wheelbase on a car), but will be less agile. So once again it comes back to assessing your own skills and where/how you like to ski. Length selection is a personal choice that should be driven by your own experience and skills. Getting advice from others on what's right for you should be viewed as a poor substitute for your own knowledge and experience.
 

Tony S

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Our OP is 6'1" 190lbs, and has been skiing six seasons. He is skiing a Volkl One 166cm, it's a snowblade. It IS a crutch that is masking technique issues, that's why he likes it. Let's not pretend skill/ experience isn't a factor. It absolutely is. Does that mean that shorter skis can't be fun? Of course not. Easy is good, skiing is about fun. Have fun! It's like sex, you don't have to be very skilled to have a really good time.

I forgot there even WAS an OP. Doh! Sorry, @Brock Tice ! (N.B. I skied with Brock a little bit this winter.) My bad.

Now, Markojp choosing one size down from the longest? That's not weird or a 'crutch' or a question of ability. I mean, he's old, right?

LOL
 

Jacques

Workin' It on Skis Best I Can
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I agree that technique is the main determinant.

I just think that @tball is totally on the money in pointing out that A) Shorter skis can help people get on top of their bump game, at least in terms of gaining enough confidence and enjoyment to stay in it for the long term, and B) That there is a pervasive cultural tone on these boards and review sites that encourages people - especially guys - to be on skis that are on the long side for the conditions they actually ski day to day. I don't understand why people are pushing back so hard on these ideas.

Shorter skis can be super fun for skiers of any ability, including superb ones. You would never guess this from reading Blister. Weird.

People tend to conflate the idea that for an intermediate a short ski can be a confidence booster in moguls (true) with the idea that short skis are only for intermediates (false). Blister, TGR, etc. perpetuate this mistake, to the detriment of their audiences.

Yea, I love me some short skis! I ski some 146 and love them. 150- !55 awesome.
 

dbostedo

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Selecting ski sizing is a balancing act between the ski width and the ski length. To that end, there is the ski's surface area that gets little discussion on this forum, however, that's how I actually track my quiver and choose skis for the day (my quiver is ordered by surface area).

Sounds like a good topic for its own thread! You've got me curious.
 

GregK

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Funny how this thread has sidetracked! Lol

The OP tried Rustler 11 in 188cm and loved them(more than his 166cm Volkl one) in his very first post but found them a touch long so his obvious solution was to buy the 180cm Rustler 11 on a deal and call it a day. They were going for $475 US with Griffons locally last month but out of stock now. There hasn’t been posts by the OP in months so who knows if they ended up getting a pair or not. :huh:

Just 4 pages of some people not realizing softer flexing, twin tipped big mountain skis with lots of rocker used in wide open spaces are used in longer lengths than stiff, pure camber groomer skis.

Also, ski flex especially in the tail is usually more important than length in bumps. A more forgiving flex tip/tail will punish mistakes less and will let you get away with using longer lengths in the bumps without issue.
 

Brad J

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Newbury, Ma.
I skied primarily bumps in the 70’s - 90’s on 204 Sl ski’s . Rossi 4S was my favorite, had multiple pairs, The bumps back then where longer ,rounder and bigger, the longer ski with a soft shovel and stiff tall was the norm. Zipper line style was a mid to late 80’s evolution. So I have to agree with Tony S and Greg that the tail flex is more important than length. Now the bad knees are ruling the day bumps are getting challenging period.
 

Alexzn

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I just do t think that this board encourages people to be on longer skis. On the contrary I think people here are very attuned to the concept of proper length and proper mounting point. Same for the Blister guys. They ski the lengths they need, they just happen to rip and can and like driving longer skis. The whole discussion is borderline silly. I don’t see a statement of “ski XYZ skis short, so you can easily go longer” as an encouragement to go “bro”, it’s a sound advice based on how the ski behaves on snow.

What I see a lot more often actually is people using shorter lengths for skiing the skis that a bit above their abilities or physical condition. And again shorter length is not a good substitute for those deficiencies. You are often maybe much better with a longer but softer ski. Again, not everything has to be lumped in one bin, people who rip can still choose a shorter ski because they like how it feels, but that’s a different story.
 
Last edited:

geepers

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From Fistful of Moguls, mid 1990's Glen Plake:
"Everybody that's ever been to Squaw Valley has counted to three and hurled their bodies off Palisades...Big deal!

What is a big deal is mogul skiing. You don't buy it, you don't fake it. It's real. It's alive. And if you want to find the best skiers on the mountain, you might just want to take a good hard look at who's skiing the bumps."

Go to 4:00 for the segment. 4:35 is the start of Glen's rant on gimmicks.

lol...9:40
"Moguls are a product of our sport. It's not something you have to go spend a $1M on building a little playing field."

And then they did.
 

Tony S

I have a confusion to make ...
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Video coming when last weekend's videographer gets her act together and uploads the incriminating evidence. ;)

Okay, I promised this in a moment of idiocy so guess I'll deliver for honor's sake, against my better judgment.

The point, which may have gotten lost by now, if it was ever found, is that many of us who are "just skiing along" may not be models that your coach wants you to emulate. Nevertheless we are also competent enough to have opinions grounded in actual experience and actual fun on actual days with actual friends in actual conditions.

In this case I'm on a ski that's loads of fun in reasonably open bumps like the ones seen here. Conditions were friendly enough but not idiot proof. (Late afternoon corn on ice. Listen.) The springy square tail will bite me in steep troughy moguls if I'm not totally on it with a clean release. Me: old 171cm; ski: young 168cm. Most importantly, note the Pugski vest!

 

James

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lol...9:40
"Moguls are a product of our sport. It's not something you have to go spend a $1M on building a little playing field."

And then they did.
Right?
If we got into half pipe costs... 900,000 gal of water and like 2-3 weeks with a cat, pipe cutter, small excavator. There's a reason pipes are scarce. So go in it damn it when you see one.

Okay, I promised this in a moment of idiocy so guess I'll deliver for honor's sake, against my better judgment.

The point, which may have gotten lost by now, if it was ever found, is that many of us who are "just skiing along" may not be models that your coach wants you to emulate. Nevertheless we are also competent enough to have opinions grounded in actual experience and actual fun on actual days with actual friends in actual conditions.

In this case I'm on a ski that's loads of fun in reasonably open bumps like the ones seen here. Conditions were friendly enough but not idiot proof. (Late afternoon corn on ice. Listen.) The springy square tail will bite me in steep troughy moguls if I'm not totally on it with a clean release. Me: old 171cm; ski: young 168cm. Most importantly, note the Pugski vest!

Looks good!
Why are there dead trees like telephone poles down the middle of the trail? Is that... Land of Oz?
 

James

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The video is titled "Tin Woodsman"... so... yeah, Oz.
I've got to read and watch the video? Plus deal with it wanting to send me somewhere else. Sheesh.
Anyway, the tin woodsman needs oil to swing his axe.
 

Scruffy

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From Fistful of Moguls, mid 1990's Glen Plake:
"Everybody that's ever been to Squaw Valley has counted to three and hurled their bodies off Palisades...Big deal!

What is a big deal is mogul skiing. You don't buy it, you don't fake it. It's real. It's alive. And if you want to find the best skiers on the mountain, you might just want to take a good hard look at who's skiing the bumps."

Go to 4:00 for the segment. 4:35 is the start of Glen's rant on gimmicks.

Love that movie. Moseley had him some fast feet.
 

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