How much base removal is too much?

[Muleski]

So for you who want to give it a shot, see the unused 1.5 degree SVST Final Cut base bevel guide that I have listed in Phil’s Garage.

Just saying.....not entering the debate.

Seen a lot of speed skis set up by a lot of techs. My son had a coach in the Rockies who had been a national team WC Speed HC {and a good one}. His son and our son were good friends. He has procured screaming fast skis for them, and when they needed base work, he shipped them to his preferred guy in New England. 2200 miles for a grind.

His son did go on to have a dozen or so WC starts. So, it probably helped.

Somebody......buy the Final Cut!

 

[smoothrides]

A few things here @chilehed, it could be laziness, but most likely is a lack of ability / knowledge.

First, if a ski tech asks you, the customer, how many passes you want over the stone you need to immediately take your equipment and leave. Depending on stone speed, feed speed, feed pressure, stone pressure, structure depth, structure width, pitch, ski width, torsional rigidity, and radius, there is no straight answer.

In my shop, a race ski that has a 1 degree base bevel and needs to go to .5 usually takes around 12-20 passes in just the flattening stage. A wide all mountain ski with a 2 degree base bevel that needs to go to a 1 usually averages 24-40 passes for just the flattening stage.

In order to properly reduce base bevel the ski base and base edges must be ground flat. If you know how to set pressure correctly this is completely attainable with dissimilar materials.

Relieving the base edge continuously while grinding is unnecessary if you run an appropriate progression during grinding, and an appropriate finish grind. The only reason to relieve edges would be to keep the structure fresh on the stone so that you don't have to dress as often, and thus, buy stones less frequently.

A stone is a consumable, and to properly grind a ski requires a minimum of 3 dressings. When a shop doesn't want to dress their stone, it's because they are penny pinching.

There's also virtually no way to set an accurate base bevel in the .3 - .5 range without finishing the grind progression completely flat edge to edge, meaning the edges and stone are fully in contact with eachother. To get to a 1, you have a bit of margin, but still need to get to .5 to accurately set the 1.

At Smooth Rides, even with the use of automated stone grinding, we still only average 1 complete tune and grind per hour, and on average we use $24 worth of stone to complete that tune. Before automation it took twice as long.

 

[Dakine]

"In order to properly reduce base bevel the ski base and base edges must be ground flat. If you know how to set pressure correctly this is completely attainable with dissimilar materials."
My experience is from toolroom practice not ski tuning.
What is good enough for a ski isn't close for precision work.

 

[Monster]

A few things here @chilehed, it could be laziness, but most likely is a lack of ability / knowledge.

First, if a ski tech asks you, the customer, how many passes you want over the stone you need to immediately take your equipment and leave. Depending on stone speed, feed speed, feed pressure, stone pressure, structure depth, structure width, pitch, ski width, torsional rigidity, and radius, there is no straight answer.

In my shop, a race ski that has a 1 degree base bevel and needs to go to .5 usually takes around 12-20 passes in just the flattening stage. A wide all mountain ski with a 2 degree base bevel that needs to go to a 1 usually averages 24-40 passes for just the flattening stage.

In order to properly reduce base bevel the ski base and base edges must be ground flat. If you know how to set pressure correctly this is completely attainable with dissimilar materials.

Relieving the base edge continuously while grinding is unnecessary if you run an appropriate progression during grinding, and an appropriate finish grind. The only reason to relieve edges would be to keep the structure fresh on the stone so that you don't have to dress as often, and thus, buy stones less frequently.

A stone is a consumable, and to properly grind a ski requires a minimum of 3 dressings. When a shop doesn't want to dress their stone, it's because they are penny pinching.

There's also virtually no way to set an accurate base bevel in the .3 - .5 range without finishing the grind progression completely flat edge to edge, meaning the edges and stone are fully in contact with eachother. To get to a 1, you have a bit of margin, but still need to get to .5 to accurately set the 1.

At Smooth Rides, even with the use of automated stone grinding, we still only average 1 complete tune and grind per hour, and on average we use $24 worth of stone to complete that tune. Before automation it took twice as long.

Spot on. It's how my my shop works up my newly-made skis from scratch. Yes, it's a fancy 100k plus brand new machine that's fully automated and dresses the stone itself on the fly, but it has no trouble bringing sometimes less-than-perfect bases and edges just out of the mold to flat in one action. After the bases and edges are true, either John or I (depending on how lazy I'm feeling . . . ) will set the base and side bevels by hand and finish the tune. We did the same thing on the older grinding stations as well.

 

[CalG]

Monster

Did I get your words right in thinking that a "typical shop" with "very good machines" might require an hours time, and 25 bucks worth of stone consumption to do what "the correct machine" does in a single pass ? (one action)

Of course interest payments on $100K is close to 25 bucks an hour... ;-)

 

[Monster]

Monster

Did I get your words right in thinking that a "typical shop" with "very good machines" might require an hours time, and 25 bucks worth of stone consumption to do what "the correct machine" does in a single pass ? (one action)

Of course interest payments on $100K is close to 25 bucks an hour... ;-)

By "one action", I meant it grinds plastic and metal at the same time. The machine doesn't need edges to be relieved in a different action, by hand or whatever.

Yeah, 100k is a lot, and they only charge $40 per grind, $65 with a tune. It will take a lot of those to pay that machine off. . . I imagine it's really a tax write off for that shop.

 

[James]

These days shops are going well beyond $100k for a tuning machine. It's more like $250-500k.

 

[trailtrimmer]

This. I thought I was pretty clear.

I've used three or four different shops over the years, told them exactly what I want every time, and never get it. I'm finally tired of it enough to do without them long enough to get them done right. I'll have a long talk with the owner of a different shop.

Thanks everyone for your input. Especially you, Doug.

I noticed you are in Michigan, do you ever ski nubs? If yes, bring your skis, you will get exactly what you want. They have a former Wintersteiger tech running the show with a state of the art shuttle at his fingertips.

I'm picky, Pat is the only guy I'll let touch my skis and I'm never disappointed.

 

[chilehed]

I noticed you are in Michigan, do you ever ski nubs? If yes, bring your skis, you will get exactly what you want. They have a former Wintersteiger tech running the show with a state of the art shuttle at his fingertips.

I'm picky, Pat is the only guy I'll let touch my skis and I'm never disappointed.

I love Nubs, but I've only been there a few times. It's quite a ways from me, but I'll certainly remember the tip. Thanks.

I'm just north of Ann Arbor. You?

 

[CalG]

How many shops have machines equipped with stones that will run both plastic and metal without the $25 dressing overhead?

The local in town shop runs everything over a belt (1 degree)

The mountain shop has an "autoMagic" machine but they don't like to mess with the settings to run a base down to zero. Too much time and cost.
I don't blame them, If a shop has 50 pairs of skis due out in the morning, Someone is working late hours.

 

[Dakine]

Well there is always the steel scraper and patience method.
Not many have the skill anymore to pull this off.
Jacques not included...

 

[Jacques]

Well there is always the steel scraper and patience method.
Not many have the skill anymore to pull this off.
Jacques not included...

Ha ha! Yes, I use the steel scraper. It works to flatten a convex base a bit, but I never worry about total flat!
I also don't worry about 1 + degree base bevels.
When I want my skis to turn, I flip them up on edge!
I ski a lot of skis that are a bit convex tip and tail. I don't have a problem skiing them and they are quite fun to ski.

The steel can be a great way to maintain a flatter ski between grinds as well
Check this out from Jim!

 

[trailtrimmer]

I love Nubs, but I've only been there a few times. It's quite a ways from me, but I'll certainly remember the tip. Thanks.

I'm just north of Ann Arbor. You?

I'm lucky enough to live in Traverse City, a nice spot to get to the best places in northern MI in a hurry. Dakine can practically see Nubs from his porch.

FWIW, what you get at Nubs for $70 would have cost you $100 + shipping from Edgewise or another shop. He tailors the structure to the ski type and use, no shop with a belt or wheel can come close.

 

[Dakine]

Nubs is looking so good I can't wait for tomorrow.
They are open today for the season and the skiing is fantastic!

 

[chilehed]

I'm lucky enough to live in Traverse City, a nice spot to get to the best places in northern MI in a hurry.

It's a beautiful area, we camp on Lake Leelanau a couple of times a year. If Sugarloaf goes back into operation I'm certain to go there.

 

[trailtrimmer]

It's a beautiful area, we camp on Lake Leelanau a couple of times a year. If Sugarloaf goes back into operation I'm certain to go there.

Unfortunately the loaf will likely never open for downhill skiing again. While it had awesome terrain and the glorious view, it was in a low snow area, most lake effect falls further inland so the were reliant on system snow and man made. The humidity was also high by the water so they needed lower temps than everyone else to start making snow. The snow making equipment that was abandoned was already antiquated and simply trash at this point. The lifts are now all gone, the state would never re-certify them so they were removed last summer. I heard ballparks were about $30 million to put in lifts, snow making, lights, etc. all to make a go with a resort that's five hours from metro Detroit. An hour further than Boyne, Nubs, Highlands and 1.5 hours further than Shanty Creek.

Yell at Dakine or myself if you ever get up to nubs again, hope you can find a good tune as well!

 

[chilehed]

Unfortunately the loaf will likely never open for downhill skiing again....

Yeah, that's pretty much what I've been thinking as well. Katofsky's been coy about his plans, stringing hope along, but it would certainly take a huge investment.

And I had no idea that that area has that issue with natural snowfall. I'm surprised.

Yell at Dakine or myself if you ever get up to nubs again, hope you can find a good tune as well!

Will do! I had a long talk with the owners at Sun and Snow in Ann Arbor, and they assure me that they can and will do it. We'll see, I'm dropping them off today.

 

[chilehed]

So I picked them up from Sun and Snow this afternoon (I'd told them that I wasn't in a hurry) and they look really good on my straightedge. The bases are dead flat and level with the edges from end to end, and I get clean edge contact on the stones with my Swix ajustable base guide set at 0.9 degrees, so I'm calling it within a reasonable margin of error to 0.5 degree. I'm happy, spent a couple of hours polishing the edges up to my fine India stone and nicked the tip of a finger pretty good at the end. They're gonna be fun.

 

[ScottB]

So I picked them up from Sun and Snow this afternoon (I'd told them that I wasn't in a hurry) and they look really good on my straightedge. The bases are dead flat and level with the edges from end to end, and I get clean edge contact on the stones with my Swix ajustable base guide set at 0.9 degrees, so I'm calling it within a reasonable margin of error to 0.5 degree. I'm happy, spent a couple of hours polishing the edges up to my fine India stone and nicked the tip of a finger pretty good at the end. They're gonna be fun.

Sounds like you got what you wanted and are good to go. I am happy for you. If you ever want a "near perfect" tune and are willing to ship your skis, try SKIMD in Framingham, MA. He is on the web and is probably the best public tuner in the country. Not to say others can't do the same, but he is a sure thing.

I went ski tune shopping and after having similar experiences as you with several shops, I went to SKIMD. I live in MA so I can drive there. I had one shop tell me, "Oh you want me to grind the edges??? That might ruin them, I am only willing to grind the PTEX. I can put whatever structure you want in the PTEX." That explained why after two trips my skis were still at 1.5 deg base bevel, instead of the 0.5 deg I was asking for.

 

[CalG]

Has anyone put a micrometer on a set of skis before and after running through a wintersteiger or equal?

How much comes off the base with each pass?