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How do you train for increased cardio/performance?!?

Plai

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In another thread, @martyg mentioned:
It goes to if you are "training", or "riding".

For example, yesterday I had an easy three hour ride. Today was an hour weight training, two easy hours, followed by 2 x 1 x 7 at max intensity. If I allowed my ego to over ride my training plan and chased someone yesterday, I would not be able to go hard today. Both max intensity and easy days have their place. You need to overload your body for growth to occur. If you always train at a moderate level, you will never be anything but moderate in ability.​
Thought this subject desired a separate thread....

From this statement, when I ride "road", I gather that I "ride" and exhaust myself, taking some days to recover.
I'd like to understand @martyg statements/formula better and maybe reverse the slow performance slide I'm beginning to see.

Typically, I'm on a bike once, weight train 2-3 times, and play tennis (doubles/singles) 2x a week.
My road rides are typically 30+ miles, typically 2/3 flat and 1/3 with 1800 ft climb over 2-3 miles.
If on an adult MTB ride, distances are around 15 miles, with around 45-90 mins climbing (2400 ft) over 4-7 miles (1/3-1/2 the distance).

Talk to me how to structure the bike riding to help increase cardio and/or performance.
 

zircon

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At your current amount of riding, adding volume is going to be the biggest thing. You can't really do any quality training on about 2 hours a week of training. Get on the bike more days a week at an easy conversational pace and build an aerobic base before you do anything. Tennis helps to a degree, but it's much more stop and go and less sustained effort than cycling.

I'm a mediocre cyclist, but a semi-competent age grouper running, so I'm going to use that. General training principles are the same, but keeping in mind there's approximately a 1:4 ratio in mileage from running to road cycling to get the same aerobic benefit. Once you've built your base, what's most useful is polarized training. Keep your easy days easy and hard days hard. On my last major training cycle, I was running 50-70 miles/week (depending on where I was in the build) split over 6 days, e.g.:
Monday: rest
Tuesday: easy miles
Wednesday: easy with 2x 15-20 minute lactate threshold intervals (this is similar to your FTP cycling, the pace you could maintain for an hour racing all-out) early in the cycle, or VO2Max intervals ([#] x 800-1200m on the track, 5k race pace) later in the training cycle. Some coaches like to invert this schedule.
Thursday: medium-long endurance miles
Friday: short recovery miles
Saturday: easy miles, with 10x100m pickups
Sunday: long run — harder and more uptempo than "easy", but nowhere near LT, about 30% of weekly mileage​

Obviously, there's some degree of event-specificity here. If I'd been training for a 5k instead of a half marathon, I'd reduce the endurance mileage and increase the speedwork. During a base or maintenance phase, I'd alternate LT intervals (shorter than while training) or the pickups weekly. Generally you'd want a cutback week every 4th or so.

Right now I'm base building for CX season and it looks kind of like 120ish miles a week (+4 days/week running also base building after a year off for a foot injury +2 days/week lifting) with one day either hammering 20 miles or hill repeats and a weekend easy ride of 80-100km.
 

Rod9301

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I find that i needed 12 hours s week of mountain biking to be in decent aerobic shape

Plus weight training 2-3 times a week
 

martyg

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Paul - In my case I have a complete physiology lab at my disposal and a wife who is a full-time trainer. What you need are: 1. Solid metrics from performance metabolic testing. 2. A goal. 3. A time frame to that goal. 4. How many hours you can dedicate to training per week. From that the physiologist who administered the testing can work with you on developing a plan.

Rod mentioned that he needs 12 hours per week to be in descent "aerobic" shape. But again... we get into definitions. "Aerobic" shape by physiology terms means how efficiently you burn fats verses carbs. And without being in a lab, and your respiratory gases being collected and analyzed, you won't know that. "Aerobically", I suck. Anaerobically, I am one of the most efficient people that the lab has tested, regardless of age. So I train my weakness, race my strength.

If all of this sounds overwhelming, performance metabolic testing runs about $200 - $400, depending on where you live. At Fort Lewis College Performance Center they work with the top cyclists in the world, and the Full-Monte testing is $195. For $195 I know exactly where I stand, and exactly what I need to do to get to my goal. IME, the more granular information that I have, the better I can act on it, the better my chances of success - in any domain from athletics to building a company.

Enjoy.
 

Rod9301

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Paul - In my case I have a complete physiology lab at my disposal and a wife who is a full-time trainer. What you need are: 1. Solid metrics from performance metabolic testing. 2. A goal. 3. A time frame to that goal. 4. How many hours you can dedicate to training per week. From that the physiologist who administered the testing can work with you on developing a plan.

Rod mentioned that he needs 12 hours per week to be in descent "aerobic" shape. But again... we get into definitions. "Aerobic" shape by physiology terms means how efficiently you burn fats verses carbs. And without being in a lab, and your respiratory gases being collected and analyzed, you won't know that. "Aerobically", I suck. Anaerobically, I am one of the most efficient people that the lab has tested, regardless of age. So I train my weakness, race my strength.

If all of this sounds overwhelming, performance metabolic testing runs about $200 - $400, depending on where you live. At Fort Lewis College Performance Center they work with the top cyclists in the world, and the Full-Monte testing is $195. For $195 I know exactly where I stand, and exactly what I need to do to get to my goal. IME, the more granular information that I have, the better I can act on it, the better my chances of success - in any domain from athletics to building a company.

Enjoy.
I said as a shortcut.
Mountain biking you get both.
 

martyg

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I said as a shortcut.
Mountain biking you get both.

What you are riding doesn't matter. Output as measured by HR or watts over time is what matters. I can go just as hard, or easy, mtn biking, road biking, ort something in between.
 

coskigirl

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I agree that you’ll need more volume and frequency to improve your overall fitness. I’m sure everything Marty says is correct but for me at my level and goals I just don’t need or want that much detail. I simply don’t get better at cycling on one day a week of cycling. Can you add shorter rides to your weightlifting days?
 

scott43

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What you are riding doesn't matter. Output as measured by HR or watts over time is what matters. I can go just as hard, or easy, mtn biking, road biking, ort something in between.
I agree completely in principle..however, practically, I find that an MTB ride is somewhat less predictable than a road ride. It's more up and down with effort..road is more constant. I guess, in a way, it's easier to cheat doing MTB. You have to be very diligent to get your MTB workout to be what you want. Road is more obvious.
 

tball

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Typically, I'm on a bike once, weight train 2-3 times, and play tennis (doubles/singles) 2x a week.
My road rides are typically 30+ miles, typically 2/3 flat and 1/3 with 1800 ft climb over 2-3 miles.
If on an adult MTB ride, distances are around 15 miles, with around 45-90 mins climbing (2400 ft) over 4-7 miles (1/3-1/2 the distance).

Talk to me how to structure the bike riding to help increase cardio and/or performance
@martyg's suggestion to get professional advice is the best answer. Here's my unprofessional stab at an easy plan to improve your cycling as well as some references where you can learn this stuff yourself if you like.

A training plan specifies the intensity, frequency, and duration of the exercise, taking into account the critical rest you need to recover from your workouts.

If you are currently taking several days to recover from your one ride per week, you are either going too long or too hard.

As mentioned, the first place to start is to ride more than once a week.

Start with two rides per week. One longer ride like you are currently doing but go much easier. Add a second shorter ride of 45 mins to an hour where you do hard intervals. A spinning class led by a cyclist would be an excellent place to learn interval training.

Eventually, add a third ride per week after you can do the two rides per week without feeling fatigued. Take a day off between rides and cross-train with tennis and weights. On your third ride per week do a "tempo" workout where you are going "comfortably hard" steady state for 45 minutes to an hour.

It's usually good to have one complete rest day each weak, especially if you are feeling tired. Maybe get out for a 30-minute walk on your rest day at most.

Joe Friel is the author of the Cyclist's Training Bible. The book is exactly as it's titled. Here's a good post with his five fundamentals of training on his blog that is worth spending some time reading:
https://www.joefrielsblog.com/2012/12/five-fundamentals-of-training.html

And a good post about duration and intensity:
https://www.joefrielsblog.com/2018/10/duration-and-intensity-in-training.html

The question of what's an easy, moderate, and hard effort (your workout zones) is best answered by testing, but you can also go off RPE (relative perceived exertion). Adding a heart rate monitor or power meter helps, but without some testing, those are just numbers. The Cyclist's Training Bible outlines how you can perform tests to set your training zones:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1937715825
 
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martyg

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I agree completely in principle..however, practically, I find that an MTB ride is somewhat less predictable than a road ride. It's more up and down with effort..road is more constant. I guess, in a way, it's easier to cheat doing MTB. You have to be very diligent to get your MTB workout to be what you want. Road is more obvious.

Agree on the diligent part. But I'd apply it to both road and mtn. I have specific routes / courses around the house. I choose a route / course based on training objective.
 

martyg

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Tball and Zircon give good advise.

You can certainly get a framework going with the resources mentioned. It all depends on how much you want to geek out.

Next year I turn 60. I'm probably in a place where I have more money than time. Seeking and securing great advice, on any topic / any domain, buys me time. Instead of making wrong turns, I start out on the most efficient path for me - with slight tweaks as I go instead of total route corrections.

The thing about great metrics and working with a coach.... There is no bullshit. There is accountability. If you can rise to that level and be held accountable - even when you have a 4 hour ride scheduled and it is raining sideways - it will take you to the next level. It is mentally fatiguing though.
 

Rod9301

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I agree completely in principle..however, practically, I find that an MTB ride is somewhat less predictable than a road ride. It's more up and down with effort..road is more constant. I guess, in a way, it's easier to cheat doing MTB. You have to be very diligent to get your MTB workout to be what you want. Road is more obvious.
I don't see this. At least in Tahoe, I'm forced to get my heart rate really high on the uphill
 

Rod9301

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And the op is riding one day a week.

At this point, any increased riding will pay big benefits, without worrying too much about the just scientific way to improve. Once he gets to ride 8+hours a week, it's time to add structure. The problem with adding intervals, tempo, whatever is that you need a lot of motivation. The better shape you're in, the easier is to find the motivation to stick to a program.

A really important part of being fast uphill, which is what i believe he wants, us technique.

Riding more will improve the technique, which will make him faster and much more efficient.
 

scott43

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I don't see this. At least in Tahoe, I'm forced to get my heart rate really high on the uphill
Yeah I get that..but..depending on what you're trying to do, you can mess up your training goals. Sometimes you're going too high in HR..sometimes you're coasting when you should be doing harder work. To me, your road bike workout is more consistent and limited by your ability to pedal. In MTB you can end up limited by terrain or ability. Like, if you're going up a dirt road for 5k, yeah, what kind of bike you're on is irrelevant. But if you're doing single-track and you're not 100% on the track you're riding, you can end up blowing through your HR ceiling or dropping below. Obviously both are work..it's just more structuring the work appropriately.
 

Wilhelmson

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It seems that time and other interests are the limiting factors. It's boring but any cardio you can do at home might be more efficient. Running always helps too.
 
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Plai

Plai

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It seems that time and other interests are the limiting factors. It's boring but any cardio you can do at home might be more efficient. Running always helps too.

@Wilhelmson is the winner. I do find doing just cardio boring: running, road and MTB, and swimming. If there's a skill or chase involved, much more fun. That said, MTB probably is the answer with all the technical distractions. Now to get rid of the job and family.... The other half of the blockers.

More seriously, I asked the question more for curiosity of what am improvement program would look like.
Thanks for the above responses.

As for multi-day recovery needed... I usually make the mistake of doing heavy lower body workouts too.
Cutting those to a third of the intensity has helped with biking recovery. I do think I have some deep thigh/leg muscles that aren't getting stretched well. Yes I stretch and am very familiar with roller balls and other self massage tools.

My goals are relatively sane... Just avoid needing doctors and pills, and to keep things fun.
 

Wilhelmson

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Well it sounds like most of you would win the race before I did. My excuses for the day: mow the lawn before work because it's going to be hot as hell this weekend. Kid's got a baseball game at 5:30. I'll drop him off at 4:45 and ride the woods behind the fields for 45 minutes. It's 90 and humid so I'll try to go fast. Once we get home from the game he'll be tired and hungry, but I might ride some more. 2 more games in the 100 degree humidity tomorrow - the exercise bike looks better and better than getting up at 5 tomorrow. But I've got a 4 pack over a 22 ounce so not bad for 42 maybe I'll just chill and have some brews.
 

Tom K.

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@Plai, martyg is probably already at a level where he is seeking small-ish incremental gains -- the difference between first and fifth in a highly competitive race.

You are not, and I don't get the feeling that you're looking for a super complicated and rigorous training plan using multiple metrics, etc.

So....just ride twice a week, if you can.

You'll be amazed!
 

NZRob

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If you've got a hill nearby just ditch one of your weight sessions and go and do hill repeats for an hour on the road bike for your 2nd weekly bike session. No impact on time, increase in cardio.
 

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