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How do you manage your budget?

KevinF

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Here's a sanitized version of it:

Let me know if you have any questions ... I create a new tab for each month.

What is typically changing on a month-to-month basis?

But it's recently been driven home to me, more than ever, how much early investing impacts retirement.

I invested in a Roth IRA from the time I was financially able to do so until the IRS said my income was too high to contribute to a Roth IRA anymore. At which point I switched over to a traditional IRA.

Anyway, the Roth IRA just sits there and grows based on how "the market" is performing. My traditional IRA gets regular contributions. If the market does "welll" -- like it has been for the past couple years -- my Roth account gains more value from me doing nothing then the IRS allows me to contribute to my traditional account.

Basically, to your point -- time. Early investing. Compounding growth. It's nearly impossible for my traditional account -- with regular contributions -- to ever surpass the value of my Roth account, which the IRS forbids me to touch. And by the time I retire, I'll have contributed to the traditional account for many more years than I contributed to the Roth account.

All of this is because the Roth account has existed for longer and it has a head start in compounding growth. It takes a while for investing returns to amount to any "real" sums, but -- once that train is up to speed --- wowzers. :D It's like having the key to the vault.
 

noncrazycanuck

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one other thing to consider is most western countries try to maintain inflation around 2% so eventually you may be paying less for the house monthly than you may need to for rent.

If that inflation rate is achieved most LAND assets historically have increased by the same amount or more.
They aren't making anymore and we tend to multiply.

you can make more in other investments minus your tax bracket, but investing needs to match your risk tolerance. That will change over time, but it's never wise investing to have too much on any one thing.
 
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Monique

Monique

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As an example, in 1970 my parents bought a house in suburban Washington DC (Fairfax County, VA) for $50,000. In 2003, they sold it for $505,000 in a peak inflated sellers market. This sounds excellent, but over 33 years only represents about 7% growth, about 2% of which was due to the major uptick in housing prices in the 2 years right before sale. But the value of that asset didn’t come from saving anything - 90% of it came from appreciation of the asset, which has nothing to do with buying the original equity.

In practical terms, the original “forced savings” of $50K in 1970 dollars had been devalued from a suburban family home to a reasonably nice car. This is the “money under the mattress” problem - cash loses value day by day as inflation raises prices.

Had they been able to pay interest only over that time and invested the difference at an 8% return, they would have had a second asset worth ~$770K - more than the house itself, because over time houses generally appreciate at the rate of inflation, except when there are financial sector driven housing bubbles.

Good points. I can't change what I did ... others could, of course.

Your story about your parents grabbed my attention. My parents bought a house in Burke, VA - then way out past the suburbs - in the late 1970s. They sold when dad retired, I think in 99 or 2000. It turns out if they'd sold a year later, they would have gotten $100k more. Ah well. Vagaries of the market.

What is typically changing on a month-to-month basis?

My actual individual expenses. The stuff on the right. That's where I'm tracking what I actually spend money on. So ... I guess I don't understand the question. The whole point of this spreadsheet is to figure out if my actual spending exceeded my monthly budget.

(Food, clothes, lift tickets, bike repairs, car maintenance, plane tickets, dog food ... all the things that I can't anticipate to an exact number)

I invested in a Roth IRA from the time I was financially able to do so until the IRS said my income was too high to contribute to a Roth IRA anymore. At which point I switched over to a traditional IRA.

Apparently, even past the income threshold, you can max out a traditional IRA and then roll those assets over into a Roth.
 
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surfsnowgirl

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I keep a spreadsheet for about 6 months in advance. It includes my regular bills and a rough estimate of what my play money is each paycheck. I also budget in if I'm planning on buying any skis, bindings, etc. I use available discounts when buying things new, hit the ski swaps in the fall, use ebay regularly. I rarely buy anything spontaneously so it's usually budgeted out. I'm a deal hunter and never pay full price for anything. I'm grateful for my job as they buy us lunch every day so that eliminates one budget component. I have a joint account with my SO for household expenses and he "bills me" each month after he pays the bills and I transfer $$ into our account. I have a bad habit of cutting myself too close to the wire so I often don't have a lot of a buffer. This is gotten me into trouble in the past. This is the one glitch in my budget I'm working on remedying. I"m also in the process of paying off my credit cards and I have plans to have one bigger balanced credit card, use that and pay it off each month. Always a work in progress.
 
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Monique

Monique

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I have a joint account with my SO for household expenses and he "bills me" each month after he pays the bills and I transfer $$ into our account.

Yeah, I may need to figure out some sort of similar plan in the future ... do you go 50/50, or proportional to income, or ..?

I"m also in the process of paying off my credit cards and I have plans to have one bigger balanced credit card, use that and pay it off each month. Always a work in progress.

It will feel *so* good when you don't carry a balance. When I was fresh out of college, I had a pretty bad bout of depression - that plus lack of skills led to ever-increasing credit card debt. I am a smart cookie, good at math, but I managed never to really pay attention to the interest rate or the balance - because I couldn't deal.

Eventually, I managed to pull myself out of the depression (with professional help), then got a consolidation loan, then managed to pay off what I think was $16k of "where the hell did it all go?" debt. It sucked, but it was such a relief to be done with it. I don't think I've carried a balance since.

In terms of credit scores, conventional wisdom is to keep your oldest credit card active ... you don't have to use it, but don't cancel it. I am not really sure why modern algorithms can't do better, but that's my understanding.
 

surfsnowgirl

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Yeah, I may need to figure out some sort of similar plan in the future ... do you go 50/50, or proportional to income, or ..?

It will feel *so* good when you don't carry a balance. When I was fresh out of college, I had a pretty bad bout of depression - that plus lack of skills led to ever-increasing credit card debt. I am a smart cookie, good at math, but I managed never to really pay attention to the interest rate or the balance - because I couldn't deal.

Eventually, I managed to pull myself out of the depression (with professional help), then got a consolidation loan, then managed to pay off what I think was $16k of "where the hell did it all go?" debt. It sucked, but it was such a relief to be done with it. I don't think I've carried a balance since.

In terms of credit scores, conventional wisdom is to keep your oldest credit card active ... you don't have to use it, but don't cancel it. I am not really sure why modern algorithms can't do better, but that's my understanding.

We go 50/50 with bills. I pay half the rent and household expenses but we don't nitpick. During ski season I hit grocery stores on monday since we aren't around weekends all winter and I pay for that. Usually in summer on weekends when we are around and go to BJ's warehouse he'll pick up that for the off season. I fully pay for the 3 cats since they are "mine" and he lived alone he wouldn't have them, etc. There are things he pays for that he doesn't bill me for but generally speaking it all evens out.

I'm grateful my credit card debt is probably under $4,000. I had a cat suddenly get sick and pass year year and another one this year plus he was on special food for 4 years so credit cards definitely took a hit. so I'm on it now so should be paid off by the end of the year. Makes sense to keep the oldest card active. I have a capital one card that earns points so I'll likely keep that one and get rid of the others. Michael has a CITI card he uses for EVERYTHING and pays it off monthly. I'm looking forward to that 0 balance feel good feeling.

Michael is a very good budgeter and has savings, etc so he could lose his job tomorrow and he'd be fine for a while. He's so good with money he doesn't understand that others aren't or have troubles sometimes. I try to make him understand that sometimes it's a learning curve for people and not everyone is perfect like him ;)

I've recently made an adjustment to my budget. I love the woman who does my hair but I've come to realize that I'm not digging paying $250 every 3 months. I'll put anything ski related for that price but it kills me to spend that on hair. My sister Pammy is very good with that stuff so she does my hair and eyebrows now and my wallet says thank you. More ski money :)
 

RachelV

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Paying off your house can be thought of as “buying your equity”. Financially, this is a terrible idea. ...

How does retirement play into this for you? Are you aiming to pay off the house by the time you retire to save the monthly expense? If you wanted to retire early, would the accelerated payoff still be a terrible idea?

Funny, this exact stuff (accelerated mortgage payoff, and the idea of the equity you'd put down on a mountain place being better used in other ways) is all coming up as we have some consultations with financial advisors. This thread has been good input & food for thought.
 

cantunamunch

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Funny, this exact stuff (accelerated mortgage payoff, and the idea of the equity you'd put down on a mountain place being better used in other ways) is all coming up as we have some consultations with financial advisors. This thread has been good input & food for thought.

On a note (in a chord really) of twisted bathos and slight irony, we also all appear to have better and more rewarding things to do than be financial advisors.

:roflmao:
 
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Monique

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On a note (in a chord really) of twisted bathos and slight irony, we also all appear to have better and more rewarding things to do than be financial advisors.

:roflmao:

Yeah. I'm reminded of that fallacy where because you think you're good at one thing, you think you're good at other things. Silicon Valley people are a great example. I do think there's benefit to having someone *good* who does this full time, lives and breathes it. But - it's hard to evaluate good, at least in the short term.

BUT also I like seeing what other people think. Although more in the realm of BUDGETING (how do you spend your monthly income?) than in INVESTMENT (which is where this thread keeps veering).

But to keep addressing the investment side, because in our post-pension world, we all need to be investors -

I am very happy with a financial advisor who figures all this stuff out for me. And you know, I DO believe that he will do better for me than managing myself, even shaving a percentage off the top. So there. He actually referenced a recent paper - by Vanguard, no less, kind of surprising - saying that FAs do 3% better than ... maybe retirement date funds? Tracking funds? The market? I don't recall specifically. Which is less than his fees. That's aside from actual practical advice, and being able to run projections based on my particulars. And saying, "Hey, this is a thing we probably want to do, but you should check with your CPA about for the tax implications ..." In my case, there is a personal connection that makes me 100% confident he's trying to help ME, not just himself. And not just financially - he can roll with my priorities.

But, yeah, his firm + he are making a good chunk of money off of that. Obviously, I'll keep an eye on that vs how much my assets are growing.

Could it be that cognitive bias where you look for confirmation after you've already committed to a decision? It could. There was that thing about financial experts doing no better than throwing a dart.

The FA we saw a few years ago, who we paid by the hour, had some good suggestions - but we had to actually follow them, and we didn't. And in retrospect - she also wasn't as definitive about an actual number to stick to for a particular retirement goal - sure, she showed us Monte Carlo simulation results, but she was overly focused on "When do you plan to buy your next car?" type questions vs "This is how much money you can spend to get to where you want to be." It could be that we didn't frame our questions correctly. We had a talk, and then she went off and ran some numbers. I think because she charged by the hour, I was hesitant to go back and ask open ended questions, to explore.
 

Uncle-A

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I am one of those people that have a pension (I did pay into it BTW) but a few years back the company that I worked for offered to buy it out with a lump sum payment. The amount they offered was based on some government actuary chart. At the time I talked to two different FA's and they both said with the lump sum amount offered that they could not match through investing the monthly payout that I was getting from my pension. So I did not take the buyout and I continued with my pension. When talking to the FA's they both asked if I was taking Social Security and at the time I was not. Both said good and the thinking of today compared to several years back is wait as long as you can before taking your SS and the thinking in the past was take SS at 62 because it would take till you are about 78 till you make up the loss due to penalty of taking it early. They said now that a lot of their clients are older they need the higher amount the waiting longer would have paid. So what the FA's gave as expert advice several years ago is not the same as expert advice they would give today. Just a little something to think about when listening to the FA's expert advise may change.
 
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Monique

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As for the budget, we do like a couple of others have mentioned. Main income covers all bills, HSA/401k/Roth contributions, secondary income goes into separate account for emergencies and planned big expenses (vehicle, insurance, roof, vacations etc.). We also keep that account at a base level that allows for unplanned big expenses.

Huh, weird, I thought I'd quoted this earlier. If not - what do "main income" and "secondary income" mean?

They said now that a lot of their clients are older they need the higher amount the waiting longer would have paid.

I think more people are enjoying extended years of activity and fun, too.

Good point about advice changing over time.
 

Jenny

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Huh, weird, I thought I'd quoted this earlier. If not - what do "main income" and "secondary income" mean?



I think more people are enjoying extended years of activity and fun, too.

Good point about advice changing over time.
Main income is the higher one, secondary is lower. (Without checking actual numbers, I think about half. They used to be a lot closer and 401ks available for both but company changes affected that.)
 

nay

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How does retirement play into this for you? Are you aiming to pay off the house by the time you retire to save the monthly expense? If you wanted to retire early, would the accelerated payoff still be a terrible idea?

Funny, this exact stuff (accelerated mortgage payoff, and the idea of the equity you'd put down on a mountain place being better used in other ways) is all coming up as we have some consultations with financial advisors. This thread has been good input & food for thought.

It all depends on cash and cashflow. Another saying is that cash is king and cashflow is queen. If I have assets generating cashflow well above my mortgage payment, then those assets are paying my liabilities instead of my labor hours.

Accelerated payoff (e.g. 15 year vs. 30 year) relies on the idea that you pay far less interest in the shorter loan, but it costs you cashflow that could be invested in liquid assets that are generating a return. It’s mostly a question of financial discipline - as I had quoted before, people buy payments not house price, and longer term mortgages are usually leveraged to buy more expensive houses - we all qualify on payments not purchase price. If one could afford the 15 year mortgage payment from a cashflow perspective but say chose a 40 year with an automatic deduction of the difference into a diversified investment fund, that diversified fund would be worth a lot more than the early buyout of equity over time. But nobody does this, and that’s the challenge.

I think that one of the best ways to think about this issue at a macro level is in the popularity, or better said necessity, of reverse mortgages.

Buying equity when cashflow is tight throughout the earning years can easily lead to being house rich and cash poor. Being cash poor means needing to increase cashflow, and the reverse mortgage is having your equity disbursed back to you in exchange for your house. Here you are using old dollars earned In the past against current prices with resulting drastically reduced purchasing power. It’s using say 2003 dollars to buy price inflated 2030 goods and services - the same thing as cash under the mattress. From an investment time value of money perspective, this is the inverse of what we should be doing.

U.S. homeowner rates are artificially high in part due to the mortgage interest deduction and heavily subsidized energy production to enable us to live far away from work and certain resources (aka the American Dream). Another housing crisis is inevitable because of the over-reliance on houses for asset appreciation and savings plus the relative equality of a mortgage vs. renting due to the tax subsidy. And that younger generations don’t have real wage (wage growth vs. inflation) growth certainty to make the leap that income will sufficiently outgrow the liability commitment as other costs increase drastically. This is smart as an economic reality, but it is going to expose the lack of economic fundamentals in house prices, unless of course the fed keeps printing free money to prop up the house of cards.

The latest tax bill should somewhat hasten the cliff, because it punishes larger families with bigger houses with the changes in personal and dependent exemptions.

Anyway, we are all going to live off cashflow from assets if we intend to retire, and a house is negative cashflow independent of its financing and can only provide cash through borrowing against equity, which further increases negative cashflow. That’s a downward spiral that should not be at the centerpiece of anybody’s retirement strategy.

Cash is king and cashflow is queen. A house produces neither, unless it has positive investment cashflow from rental income.

I wonder how many people’s retirement strategy will include the word “Airbnb” because the only large potential asset has to produce cashflow?
 
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nay

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BUT also I like seeing what other people think. Although more in the realm of BUDGETING (how do you spend your monthly income?) than in INVESTMENT (which is where this thread keeps veering).

Budgeting is the process of setting artificial monthly spending category limits, looking away as extra purchases are justified case by case, and then running monthly reports to show that you are the reason you have no money.

I use Quicken for this process of self-denial. I download all of my transactions, categorize them, and realize that there is no job that I am going to have anytime soon that is going to remotely increase my cashflow enough to have to worry about “investing” beyond a 401(k), at least while I still have four kids, two dogs, two cats, and a lizard on the payroll. It’s nothing but survival.

I also buy lotto tickets and intend to continue to work for startups for the potential for the right kind of equity. In which case I might buy my house, but probably not.

Here’s another saying:

When you owe a bank $5,000, you have a problem. When you owe a bank $5,000,000, they have a problem.

We only even know who our current President is because of the fundamental truth of that quote.
 

Magi

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How does retirement play into this for you? Are you aiming to pay off the house by the time you retire to save the monthly expense? If you wanted to retire early, would the accelerated payoff still be a terrible idea?

Funny, this exact stuff (accelerated mortgage payoff, and the idea of the equity you'd put down on a mountain place being better used in other ways) is all coming up as we have some consultations with financial advisors. This thread has been good input & food for thought.

The short answer is "do the math", possibly by using the NYT rent vs own calculator.
 
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Monique

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Anyway, we are all going to live off cashflow from assets if we intend to retire, and a house is negative cashflow independent of its financing and can only provide cash through borrowing against equity, which further increases negative cashflow. That’s a downward spiral that should not be at the centerpiece of anybody’s retirement strategy.

It can provide cash if you sell it and move to a place with a cheaper cost of living, or downsize to a smaller place, right?

Granted, that tends to be late in the game.
 

RachelV

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It all depends on cash and cashflow. Another saying is that cash is king and cashflow is queen. If I have assets generating cashflow well above my mortgage payment, then those assets are paying my liabilities instead of my labor hours.

Accelerated payoff (e.g. 15 year vs. 30 year) relies on the idea that you pay far less interest in the shorter loan, but it costs you cashflow that could be invested in liquid assets that are generating a return. It’s mostly a question of financial discipline - as I had quoted before, people buy payments not house price, and longer term mortgages are usually leveraged to buy more expensive houses - we all qualify on payments not purchase price. If one could afford the 15 year mortgage payment from a cashflow perspective but say chose a 40 year with an automatic deduction of the difference into a diversified investment fund, that diversified fund would be worth a lot more than the early buyout of equity over time. But nobody does this, and that’s the challenge.

...

Thanks for the thorough answer, really helpful.

I think the thing I struggle with with money is that I totally understand & appreciate the point that over a long enough timeframe, letting low-interest debt ride and saving the different is always the right choice - as long as you define "right" as "resulting in the biggest pile of money". But once you're past the point where you can support your basic needs, money is just a tool that you use to buy things you want. So the question is really - what are you buying with the money you use to pay off your mortgage early? Lifestyle flexibility? Peace of mind? Both valid choices, as you long as you understand the choice you're making.
 

WheatKing

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Here's a blog that might help.. it has certainly put things into a bit of a perspective for me. Allowing me to prioritize where I put money based on what goals I want to attain. I budget with a simple spreadsheet.. income / hard costs / expenses / debt / savings

www.mrmoneymustache.com

There are tons of opinions on how to manage money / investments / retirement etc.. only one matters however.. yours. As much as i want to "retire" i can't see it happening.. one, my savings have been wiped out a few times due to job loss etc.. and two.. I love what I do.. Eventually I hope to be a part-time consultant and do what I want to do, rather than what I have to do. Live where I want to live, and not where I have to live.. This whole giving up work at 55/65/68/70.. whatever.. can't see me doing that. I've been in IT for 26 years.. and I've got another 18 years before "retirement age", and i'm enjoying my farming at the moment as well.. Given my family history.. i should be good until my 80's/90's.. hell maybe longer.. and as much as a "comfortable retirement" where i'm a multimllionaire sounds great.. i need to enjoy what I have of my youth before it's gone
 

Plai

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Thanks for the thorough answer, really helpful.

So the question is really - what are you buying with the money you use to pay off your mortgage early? Lifestyle flexibility? Peace of mind? Both valid choices, as you long as you understand the choice you're making.

I don't see the end goal of either as bigger piles of money, or peace of mind. I see it as more opportunity. Having the money provides opportunity to (lifestyle) have the job I want rather than need, invest in someone/something that might need help, more freedom/flexibility in the future.

It's a tentent of being frugal. That's why I get multi-taskers for the kitchen.
 
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I think the thing I struggle with with money is that I totally understand & appreciate the point that over a long enough timeframe, letting low-interest debt ride and saving the different is always the right choice

Quibble: "saving the difference" is unlikely to be an improvement. "Investing the difference" is an improvement, assuming the stock market continues to do well, on average. My expectation is that over a 10 or especially 20 year time horizon, the stock market will improve on average, and I can ride out lows. My further assumption is that if the stock market nose dives and NEVER comes back, we're in the territory where dollars are useless and negotiation is at gunpoint. And as the US, we're taking the rest of the world with us. But I find that scenario so unlikely that I'll invest.

I wish I'd understood all this when we decided to pay off the house. I mean, I sort of did, but it took my FA - and being in a situation where I started really worrying about my budget and retirement - to care enough to really process its meaning to me.
 

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