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How do you handle the bottom of the turn?

Rod9301

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I'm thinking of what I have to do in order to get my skis' edges to release the old turn so that I can start a new turn.

Back off the edge angle, push the old outside ski forward, retract the legs... There's a lot going on.
Actually, pull the old outside ski back
 

geepers

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I think we need something new to argue about. The "Transitions" thread has lost energy since people are now agreeing with each other.

:)

winding-you-up-easy-it-is.jpg



Basically into and below the fall line, the consistent thing I'm looking for across turn type is for is grip. Fore/aft balance is big part of that so keeping the feet coming through, especially the outside foot, is key to staying in the "middle of the ski", making sure the tails are holding. Correct platform angle is of no help if too forward. There's more time for managing this on wide radius turns and less on shorts and in the bumps. Counter-torquing or winding up for tension between upper and lower body to assist entry into the new turn also more critical on shorts/bumps.

In regards to feet coming through, currently back on snow for the last visit of the season. It is the mother of all slush - we're not getting spring melt/freeze- just melt/melt. Snow is super draggy. The best time to start moving aft heading into the fall line is on the chairlift on the way up.

There's good snow and snow that is good for you. Just wish the snow gods weren't wanting it to be so good for us.... :rolleyes: Hopefully a freeze tonight so may get some firmer snow for a short time tomorrow....:crossfingers:



I've always enjoyed monitoring Richie Berger's knees when he's making short turns. There's a decisive up move just after apex.

That's part of what I mean by keeping the feet coming through. Through and up in Richie's case. He's working the tails of those skis for grip. It's not backseat and it's not pushing. He's pulling the feet through and up with his hip flexors and core. Toes moving closer to nose. after which he he flexes for transition.
 

Skitechniek

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Interesting topic! In my opinion the second half of the turn is the most important part. It's the part of the turn where forces are the biggest, so this is where really good skiers/athletes seperate themselves from the others. But I think what you do in that part of the turn depends on what you want to achieve.

If I'm freeskiing flats, or skiing gates I try to release the pressure as close to the fall line as possible to maintain speed.

If it becomes steeper and/or hardly make a gate I try to continue increasing edge angle, I move my CoM forward by increasing tip lead and I stay on the edges longer, all to decrease/control speed. In that case I want to feel a lot of cuff pressure in this part of the turn.
 

Rod9301

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Interesting topic! In my opinion the second half of the turn is the most important part. It's the part of the turn where forces are the biggest, so this is where really good skiers/athletes seperate themselves from the others. But I think what you do in that part of the turn depends on what you want to achieve.

If I'm freeskiing flats, or skiing gates I try to release the pressure as close to the fall line as possible to maintain speed.

If it becomes steeper and/or hardly make a gate I try to continue increasing edge angle, I move my CoM forward by increasing tip lead and I stay on the edges longer, all to decrease/control speed. In that case I want to feel a lot of cuff pressure in this part of the turn.
What do you mean by increasing tip lead?
 

Skitechniek

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What do you mean by increasing tip lead?

Increasing the the distance between inside and outside by pushing the inside forward and/or outside backward.

^This basically. In turns with a lot of offset there is huge tip lead, in turns with little offset there is hardly any to no tip lead.
 
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LiquidFeet

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...If it becomes steeper and/or hardly make a gate I try to continue increasing edge angle, I move my CoM forward by increasing tip lead and I stay on the edges longer, all to decrease/control speed. In that case I want to feel a lot of cuff pressure in this part of the turn.
....Increasing the the distance between inside and outside by pushing the inside forward and/or outside backward.

@Skitechniek, you sometimes push the inside foot/ski forward. I have some questions.

1. How far forward does that inside foot actually go when you do this?
2. You indicate you want your CoM farther forward in the bottom of the turn. What benefit does that deliver?
3. Does tip lead by itself get your CoM farther forward?
 
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Skitechniek

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@Skitechniek, you push the inside foot/ski forward? It doesn't end up there by default because of inside leg flexion?

Do you want your CoM farther forward in the bottom of the turn? Why? And Is increasing tip lead the way you accomplish this? Does tip lead get your CoM farther forward?

No, if you don't push it forward or move forward on the outside ski, it won't end up there. Inside leg flexion will hardly cause any tip lead. If you are skiing properly you are always centered on your ski's. Increasing tip lead causes you CoM to be forward relative to the outside ski, but seen over two ski's you are still centered, cause you are back on the inside ski. Which isn't a problem if your weight is on the outside ski.

If you move your CoM forward relative to the outside ski, the ski will bend at a different point. A ski will bend the most under where your CoM is. Tip lead allows you to manipulate that point. It will cause the ski to bend a bit more to front of the ski, cause that is where the snow will be pushing on it. Which means it will bend more. And if most your weight is on the outside, it doesn't matter that you are relatively back on the inside. The inside is not the ski that decides turning radius anyway.

Whether you want your CoM forward late in the turn is a matter of intent. Do you want to tighten the turn yes or no? If yes, then you want your CoM forward. If no, then no. Skiing is a game of applying and removing resistance to your ski, in order to facilitate circular travel and speed control. Edging by far has the most influence on that, but things like the position of your CoM, your speed, the snow conditions, timing all play a role on turning radius as well.
 

Rod9301

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No, if you don't push it forward or move forward on the outside ski, it won't end up there. Inside leg flexion will hardly cause any tip lead. If you are skiing properly you are always centered on your ski's. Increasing tip lead causes you CoM to be forward relative to the outside ski, but seen over two ski's you are still centered, cause you are back on the inside ski. Which isn't a problem if your weight is on the outside ski.

If you move your CoM forward relative to the outside ski, the ski will bend at a different point. A ski will bend the most under where your CoM is. Tip lead allows you to manipulate that point. It will cause the ski to bend a bit more to front of the ski, cause that is where the snow will be pushing on it. Which means it will bend more. And if most your weight is on the outside, it doesn't matter that you are relatively back on the inside. The inside is not the ski that decides turning radius anyway.

Whether you want your CoM forward late in the turn is a matter of intent. Do you want to tighten the turn yes or no? If yes, then you want your CoM forward. If no, then no. Skiing is a game of applying and removing resistance to your ski, in order to facilitate circular travel and speed control. Edging by far has the most influence on that, but things like the position of your CoM, your speed, the snow conditions, timing all play a role on turning radius as well.
Increasing tip lead is contrary to what every good skier is doing, which is pulling back the inside ski throughout the turn

This allows you to be centered on the new downhill ski from the beginning of the turn.
 

Skitechniek

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Increasing tip lead is contrary to what every good skier is doing, which is pulling back the inside ski throughout the turn

This allows you to be centered on the new downhill ski from the beginning of the turn.

Agree to disagree.
1) You can use a pull back move and still have massive tip lead. I use my inside tibia for pull back and my outside ankle, hips and inside and outside leg for tip lead. For me pull back is about maintaining cuff pressure, not about avoiding tip lead.
2) I wouldn't call Hirscher a bad skier and he often displays very big tip lead. And generally I see plenty of tip lead in WC skiing.
 

S.H.

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Increasing tip lead is contrary to what every good skier is doing, which is pulling back the inside ski throughout the turn

This allows you to be centered on the new downhill ski from the beginning of the turn.
I dunno, watch the top end world cup men on really turny, steep, GS.

It definitely happens.

Should it be coached? Probably depends on the athlete - to many, it probably comes naturally to make the skis do what they need to.
Is it relevant to 99.9% of skiers? Probably not.
 

Rod9301

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Agree to disagree.
1) You can use a pull back move and still have massive tip lead. I use my inside tibia for pull back and my outside ankle, hips and inside and outside leg for tip lead. For me pull back is about maintaining cuff pressure, not about avoiding tip lead.
2) I wouldn't call Hirscher a bad skier and he often displays very big tip lead. And generally I see plenty of tip lead in WC skiing.
Yeah, you see the tip lead because of the extreme edge angles they achieve.
But they pull their inside foot very strongly and they never create tip lead voluntarily.
 
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LiquidFeet

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@Skitechniek, your words in black, mine in red.

...if you don't push it forward or move forward on the outside ski, it won't end up there. Disagree. See next response below.

...Inside leg flexion will hardly cause any tip lead. Beg to disagree. Stand on stairs in ski boots with no skis; the uphill leg will be more flexed than the downhill leg. The uphill foot will naturally end up forward of the "downhill" foot (ITL) because the uphill boot cuff will keep that ankle from flexing deep enough to keep that foot back even with the downhill foot. No problem keeping the feet lined up with each other in sneakers.

....Increasing tip lead causes you CoM to be forward relative to the outside ski, but seen over two ski's you are still centered, cause you are back on the inside ski. Which isn't a problem if your weight is on the outside ski. This sounds so weird. If your weight is on the outside ski and it's centered on that ski, why does moving the inside ski forward affect what part of the outside ski is weighted the most? You can dorsiflex both ankles more to send the CoM forward more, or slide both feet back relative to the CoM above, or slide the outside ski back all by itself (which you did mention), in order to move the body weight forward over the outside ski. None of those involve moving the inside foot forward.

If you move your CoM forward relative to the outside ski, the ski will bend at a different point. Agree.

if most your weight is on the outside, it doesn't matter that you are relatively back on the inside. I think you just said that being farther back on the inside ski, once it's moved forward, moves your CoM forward on the outside ski, which is a thing you want. So being back on the inside ski does matter to you. It's a thing you sound like you do to get yourself forward on the outside ski. Again, this is weird logic. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you. I am taking you seriously because your avatar looks like you know what you are talking about, however I don't see tip lead in that image of you. The pic was taken at the bottom of a turn. How come there's no inside tip lead?

Whether you want your CoM forward late in the turn is a matter of intent. Do you want to tighten the turn yes or no? If yes, then you want your CoM forward. I am assuming you are talking about arc-to-arc carves. Are you a ball-of-foot guy? Or do you focus your underfoot pressure elsewhere? I'm just trying to figure this shovel pressure at end of turn thing out.

[/QUOTE]
 
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razie

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If it becomes steeper and/or hardly make a gate I try to continue increasing edge angle, I move my CoM forward by increasing tip lead and I stay on the edges longer, all to decrease/control speed. In that case I want to feel a lot of cuff pressure in this part of the turn.

:huh: if I push my new outside ski forward, doesn't that open the ankle, eliminate shin pressure and put me back? Asking for a friend.
 

Skitechniek

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I'll try to reply this weekend, don't have time atm. Hopefully I can muster up some pics to explain how I see it.
 

geepers

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Increasing the the distance between inside and outside by pushing the inside forward and/or outside backward.

^This basically. In turns with a lot of offset there is huge tip lead, in turns with little offset there is hardly any to no tip lead.

Can you let us know a couple of the turns in that vid where you see this happening. (e.g. turn to right at xx seconds...)
 

François Pugh

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:huh: if I push my new outside ski forward, doesn't that open the ankle, eliminate shin pressure and put me back? Asking for a friend.
It's complicated. ogwink
There are two MAIN parts to this. First if you have your outside leg almost straight and your inside leg bent so your femur is at an angle of 90 degrees at your hip, the length of your femur moves the inside foot ahead. The second part is mental, and it works for some people. When you are in a turn you have tip lead (see the first point); enabling that tip lead encourages the entire movement. It's sorta, kinda like when your physiotherapist tells you to move your tailbone back to get you to start a squat.
Oh also, it's all relative, and when you push one side foreward the natural tendancy is to pull the other backwards. And that's just for simple carved turns, leaving the pivoting out the mix.
 

bmoose21

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Hello! Seems like as good a time as any to jump in with a new topic.

As I sit here and ponder it, I am realizing that the bottom of the turn is really the entire problem with skiing. Whether or not the top of the turn and the middle of the turn have gone well for you, if you do a reasonable job with the bottom of the turn your body will be 'inside' the turn, and the ski will be at some ever increasing edge angle-- hopefully carving-- as you have to resist the forces of the turn and gravity building up on your body. That all puts you in the worst possible position to be in if you want to start going the other way. The contortions required to switch directions are almost as ridiculous as racing a motocross bike with a sidecar: (ok I admit that looks pretty fun).

With that in mind I think a good turn finish involves using those forces that exist at the turn finish efficiently because a lot needs to happen very quickly in transition. The real trick is to begin to put yourself in a position to be able to switch edges quickly while maintaining the old turn, especially for short turns. So the idea is to prepare, then commit to edge change to make it happen as quickly as possible. For short turns there is a kind of weird bending of the knees while simultaneously tipping the skis movement that is sometimes described to help in doing this, but sometimes if I just focus on continuing to build edge angle while simultaneously moving my hip towards the new turn center it helps too.
 

Rod9301

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Hello! Seems like as good a time as any to jump in with a new topic.

As I sit here and ponder it, I am realizing that the bottom of the turn is really the entire problem with skiing. Whether or not the top of the turn and the middle of the turn have gone well for you, if you do a reasonable job with the bottom of the turn your body will be 'inside' the turn, and the ski will be at some ever increasing edge angle-- hopefully carving-- as you have to resist the forces of the turn and gravity building up on your body. That all puts you in the worst possible position to be in if you want to start going the other way. The contortions required to switch directions are almost as ridiculous as racing a motocross bike with a sidecar: (ok I admit that looks pretty fun).

With that in mind I think a good turn finish involves using those forces that exist at the turn finish efficiently because a lot needs to happen very quickly in transition. The real trick is to begin to put yourself in a position to be able to switch edges quickly while maintaining the old turn, especially for short turns. So the idea is to prepare, then commit to edge change to make it happen as quickly as possible. For short turns there is a kind of weird bending of the knees while simultaneously tipping the skis movement that is sometimes described to help in doing this, but sometimes if I just focus on continuing to build edge angle while simultaneously moving my hip towards the new turn center it helps too.
Don't move your hips.
All you need is tried the old downhill leg, this will effortlessly move you into the new turn.

And tip also.
 

4ster

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I think that this fits into a discussion of the bottom half of a turn, because that's where we're most resisting the forces coming up through our feet. Consider the kind of short turn (focus on the groomed run turns) that Richard Berger is making in the first half of this segment:

Question: We often talk about achieving dynamic balance of the COM over the BOS, given the forces being experienced. Do you think that there is any phase of these short turns in which Berger maintains dynamic balance? Or is his COM throughout the second half of the turn falling progressively across his skis due to a deliberate IMBALANCE? To put it another way, is he only PARTIALLY resisting the forces coming up through his feet, just enough to propel himself across the hill the desired amount, and keep himself from falling over?

Compare what's happening in these short turns with what's happening in the medium radius turns starting about halfway through the segment.
Reminding me of what an amazing, athletic bump skier Richie Berger is! Exclamation point the bottom of the turn!!!
:geek:
 

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