How do you handle the bottom of the turn?

[LiquidFeet]

I think we need something new to argue about. The "Transitions" thread has lost energy since people are now agreeing with each other.

"Bottom of the turn" for the purpose of this thread means:
-- the part of a turn from the fall line onwards
-- the part of the turn where the skis are pointed in the new direction
-- the bottom half of the turn, if you use the fall line to divide a turn into two parts

What do you do, what's your focus, what is your intent? Do you think of this part of the turn as havinga specific function different from the top part of the turn?

Do you think there ONE best way to handle the bottom of a turn, even though there might be exceptions?

Or do you employ a variety of equally valid ways to manage what's going on at that point in a turn? If yes to this, are the differences dependent on terrain, conditions, or some other factor?

 

[green26]

I'm just a recreational skier, but the following has been pretty major for me -

Bottom of turn, from my last ski week in Taos, early March:

1. No tip lead. Tips stay lined up, one doesn't get out ahead of the other.
2. No sequential actions - skis do the same things at the same time.

Working with these in the short time remaining after that week when areas were still open: More control, more joy, more connection with the snow and mountain.

All kinds of other things to think about and employ, but these two are the newest and perhaps most impactful for me so far, and answered some thorny questions I had about my skiing.

Terrain: all-pupose. These are great for me in bumps, chutes, steeps, trees. I didn't have these concepts before, despite lots of Taos ski weeks and always felt there was something missing. I'm a pretty analytic skier, almost every turn I want to understand the mechanics in each instant, how each instant contributes to the whole.

 

[crgildart]

For me the pole plant ends last turn and kicks off the execution of the next turn.

 

[KevinF]

I'm thinking of what I have to do in order to get my skis' edges to release the old turn so that I can start a new turn.

Back off the edge angle, push the old outside ski forward, retract the legs... There's a lot going on.

 

[Bad Bob]

The 'bottom of the turn' is determined by: intent, terrain, conditions, surroundings, and feel. It is the build up for the next initiation and, and styled by the transition.
The top middle and bottom are totally connected and determined by each other. They can be broken apart from each other, but not without totally altering each other. In the top of the turn you commit yourself with the transition, in the bottom you are rewarded for the commitment (or maybe you fall down).

 

[François Pugh]

Whatever I want at the time. It depends on my mood. One game I sometimes play is to release my body from the turn early while continuing to crank my skis over and get them across as quick as I can without tripping myself. If I am racing to bottom there is no second or bottom part of the turn. If I want to keep speed down while making clean carved tracks, I hang on to the turn as long and tight as I can. I used to ski full circles, but gave that up after two many close calls avoiding head-on collisions with skiers following me.

 

[Chris V.]

Sure, every turn is different--and some good points by green26--but some more go-to objectives would be:

o Maintain the degree of grip established before the fall line. That means if I'm doing edge-locked turns, keep them edge-locked. If I'm doing brushed turns, maintain the same amount of brushing, that is to say a constant deviation of the paths of the tails from the paths of the tips.

o Continue to intensify the foot-tipping movement, and counterbalance that as needed with the upper body.

o Continue to increase upper-lower body separation. This is the part of the turn where this should really develop strongly.

o Aim for the amount of propulsion across the hill needed to complete the radius and size of turn that I'm aiming for--no more, no less. When I've done what's needed to generate that amount of propulsion, it's time to start setting up for the next turn.

o As I approach the transition, that's where the paths of my COM and skis should start to deviate most strongly. Allow the COM to start moving across the skis (not necessarily as a result of "crossover," could be "crossunder") while maintaining sufficient edge angle and outside ski commitment to make the skis continue to turn and start to move uphill of me. In this phase, guard against pivoting the skis away from the center of the turn that I'm finishing.

o Make a progressive adjustment to fore-aft balance to promote the foregoing happening--but at the same time hold onto dorsiflexion at the ankles.

<< Do you think of this part of the turn as having a specific function different from the top part of the turn? >>

In a nutshell, this is where we reap the rewards of having established edge angles and contact with the snow in the top part of the turn.

 

[oldschoolskier]

Bottom of the turn, is the start of the transition.

See transition thread.

 

[mister moose]

If I want to keep speed down while making clean carved tracks, I hang on to the turn as long and tight as I can. I used to ski full circles, ...

<Slaps forehead> So we can turn left with a 270 to the right! With no edge change!

Bottom of the turn, is the start of the transition.

I'm always in transition.

OK, not always. Sometimes I'm in transition to transition.

 

[David Chaus]

I think we need something new to argue about.

No, we don’t.

 

[crgildart]

Plant/tap-shift-turn

Plant/tap-shift-turn

Plant/tap-shift-turn

Plant/tap-shift-turn

 

[Jim McDonald]

At the bottom of the turn?
More often than not I just pick myself up, dust myself off, and start all over again!

 

[rustypouch]

The 'bottom of the turn' is determined by: intent, terrain, conditions, surroundings, and feel. It is the build up for the next initiation and, and styled by the transition.
The top middle and bottom are totally connected and determined by each other. They can be broken apart from each other, but not without totally altering each other. In the top of the turn you commit yourself with the transition, in the bottom you are rewarded for the commitment (or maybe you fall down).

Exactly. I sometimes tend to think of turns as from fall line to fall line, or apex to apex, rather than top and bottom. But that might change depending on how I'm feeling that day. What you do at the top of the turn affects the bottom. What you do at the bottom affects the top of the next.

But at the bottom of the turn, I'm reducing edge angle and pressure on the ski. Using impulse and energy from unloading the ski to help me start the transition into the next.

 

[Coach13]

I think for me at this point it’s about relaxing the new inside knee and allowing my COM to project down the hill towards my new turn.

 

[4ster]

Bottom of the turn, is the start of the transition.

See transition thread.

QFT

But at the bottom of the turn, I'm reducing edge angle and pressure on the ski. Using impulse and energy from unloading the ski to help me start the transition into the next.

or to get me where I want/need to be.


Lots of different ways to get there but I am not at the bottom of the turn until...
My speed is back to where I began the turn or at least reached a place where I am comfortable.
(Many lower-level skiers need to traverse between turns to reach their comfort zone.)

I am in the exact spot that I want to begin the next turn.
(this is where some tend to shop for their next turn)

I am in a stable, balanced relationship to the slope & that allows me to deal with any obstacles that may present themselves.
(This is where many find difficulties if they are in conditions or slopes that are over their head)

I feel these turns have a solid bottom, where I could stop on a dime if need be...

One could make the argument that the top, middle or bottom are the most important parts of the turn but in my mind they are all codependent.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Summary of what people are saying as of a couple of hours ago:

1. There is some discussion of what the "bottom of the turn" means, including mention of the seamlessness of top, middle, and bottom of turns.
2. Two people identify different types of turns and how they handle the part after the fall line in each of those those. One type of turn mentioned has no bottom.
3. Most people sound as if there is primarily one way they handle the bottom of all turns.
4. Two people talk about starting to release the skis by flattening them.
5. Others talk about starting to release/transition by other means, or without an explanation of how they do it.
6. Two people mention maintaining the edging in order to get the skis to head back uphill of the body, which in turn releases the CoM so it crosses the skis.
7. Other odds and ends are mentioned, including holding onto and/or increasing counter and/or angulation, moving outside ski forward, pole planting, attending to tip lead, relaxing the outside leg, consistency and fore/aft balance, and reducing pressure on the outside ski. No one has mentioned extending the new outside leg.

I don't think anyone has addressed bump turns, but I could be wrong.

There is notable variety in the responses, with at least one set of seemingly mutually exclusive approaches having to do with edging after the fall line (implied in #4 and 6).

 

[4ster]

The "Transitions" thread has lost energy since people are now agreeing with each other.

that may be a first, I will have to take a look.

I don't think anyone has addressed bump turns, but I could be wrong.

When skiing bumps, I think the bottom of the turn becomes more of a priority. Whether it is the bottom of the trough, the crest, between the bump or somewhere else, your aim needs to be pretty accurate & your reactions precise to make it a fluid run.

Mixing it up in natural bumps or riding the troughs In the course, the bottom can be jarring if you’re not ready for it.

(PC: C. Morgan)

 

[Steve]

To me the bottom of the turn involves:

Continuing to turn the skis in the old turn direction while starting to soften up the pressure on the outside ski while starting to release the edges.

This is also where angulation begins to increase, at first to keep pressure on the outside ski, and than starting to move the upper body towards crossing over (or the legs to crossing under.)

Finally there is hand and arm discipline needed, the outside arm staying somewhat over the outside ski (not falling back) and preparing for the pole plant, while the inside hand also doesn't fall back. Both elbows in front of the torso.

 

[Chris V.]

I think that this fits into a discussion of the bottom half of a turn, because that's where we're most resisting the forces coming up through our feet. Consider the kind of short turn (focus on the groomed run turns) that Richard Berger is making in the first half of this segment:

Question: We often talk about achieving dynamic balance of the COM over the BOS, given the forces being experienced. Do you think that there is any phase of these short turns in which Berger maintains dynamic balance? Or is his COM throughout the second half of the turn falling progressively across his skis due to a deliberate IMBALANCE? To put it another way, is he only PARTIALLY resisting the forces coming up through his feet, just enough to propel himself across the hill the desired amount, and keep himself from falling over?

Compare what's happening in these short turns with what's happening in the medium radius turns starting about halfway through the segment.

 

[LiquidFeet]

I've always enjoyed monitoring Richie Berger's knees when he's making short turns. There's a decisive up move just after apex.