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How can the individual detect when they are on "Too Much Ski"?

CalG

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This comes from comments made on another thread regarding the percentage of skiers who are on the wrong ski.

Thinking objectively, how can the skier determine for themselves if the the ski on their feet is above their skiing ability to such a degree that skill development is hampered?

It was much easier when there were only Head Standards and Hart Javelins to choose from. ;-)
 

Ogg

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If you’re having trouble turning them when and where you want or feel they’re running away from you.
 

Ken_R

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Also of note, sometimes too little a boot (or too large a boot fit) can make a ski feel like too much ski, like the ski has a life of its own and is driving you rather than you driving it. Over the past 2 seasons I have found that it helps if the boots and skis match well with each other in purpose and stiffness.

A stiff ski (relative to the height/weight and ability/aggressiveness of the skier) and heavy ski with a softer and lighter boot (again, relative to the height/weight and ability/aggressiveness of the skier) just doesnt feel right. And a heavy stiff boot just doesnt match well with lighter and softer skis. Its a balancing act but either way boot fit is paramount.

My touring boots (Atomic Hawx Ultra XTD 120) match perfectly with my touring skis (Black Crows Navis Freebird 185cm) but when I use the same boots on my much heavier, stiffer and just burlier Moment 112mm wide 190cm long powder skis sometimes the boots can feel a tad too soft and light. The heavier skis buck them around more in harder or denser snow at high speeds. If I use my Lange RS130's (MUCH heavier boot overall and just a tad stiffer) this is no longer the case.

I hope this makes sense.
 

Tony S

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At the risk of being simplistic, skis are designed to be bent to turn. If you're not bending the ski with relative ease in every turn, or if it bends a little but then rebounds before you're really done with the turn, they're too stiff or too long. Whether it's because of skier size or technique or boots or whatever, doesn't matter. Been there.

As far as "too much ski" in terms of width ... I don't have the energy to try to go there now, but someone will, I'm sure.
 

Philpug

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This is true, but only if you have possession of the technical skill to know what "better" is. To often I see people run out and spend $1,200 on a new kit, when what they is need is $1,200 of coaching.
But but but....I know what I am doing..I have been skiing for 60 years!!! (said to me yesterday when someone who is much shorter than me wanting to buy poles too long...because thats the size he has skied with for 60 years) I simply asked if he was the same height as he was even 10 years ago? Silence.
 

martyg

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But but but....I know what I am doing..I have been skiing for 60 years!!! (said to me yesterday when someone who is much shorter than me wanting to buy poles too long...because thats the size he has skied with for 60 years) I simply asked if he was the same height as he was even 10 years ago? Silence.

:).

We all like to banter about equipment... And it drives sales and funds ads in magazines which we enjoy reading.... And we like shiny new things... But this sport is so not about the equipment. Everyone makes great equipment. There are a handful of ski factories of consequence in the world making 90% of the skis. Granted equipment wears out and every two decades or so a breakthrough in materials availability (like when the Wall came down) or manufacturing technology will come along that will make legit leaps.

End result - most brands are reduced to being marketing entities - and promising you a better day if you purchase their gear. Start with a great pair ofg properly fitted boots, skis about 80 underfoot and invest in your skill set. Invest in yourself will never go out of fashion, and it will never wear out. The more you use it the stronger and more polished it becomes.

Enjoy.
 

martyg

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This comes from comments made on another thread regarding the percentage of skiers who are on the wrong ski.

Thinking objectively, how can the skier determine for themselves if the the ski on their feet is above their skiing ability to such a degree that skill development is hampered?

It was much easier when there were only Head Standards and Hart Javelins to choose from. ;-)

How many days of coaching and video analysis have you had this year? Is it the ski or could a tweak in movement patterns result in a profound improvement in efficiencies?
 

mdf

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I'm wondering how much you weigh @martyg . I weigh about 50% more than @Tony S so it is much less likely for me to find myself on too stiff a ski to handle, though I prefer moderate stiffness in what most people would consider too long a length.

Years ago I demoed a ski that was too stiff to bend, and it was very frustrating. I would be curious to see what I could do with them now. Several years after that, I demoed a different pair of huge skis (Cham 127 in the only length 190) and they were a lot of fun, but I had to ski them differently and faster than usual.

This most recent trip, I had a different problem -- too much in a different dimension -- with the Stockli Laser AX I bought used. I was skiing boot-top cut up powder near the bookends at Snowbird, and they kept overr-turning on me. Made me very nervous. I also found that when they hooked up on groomers they were hard on my knee. I think with a little more prep time on my knee, some mileage to get used to them, and some technique adjustment, I will be able to make them perform the way they are supposed to. But last week for one snapshot in time they were "too much ski."
 

martyg

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I'm wondering how much you weigh @martyg . I weigh about 50% more than @Tony S so it is much less likely for me to find myself on too stiff a ski to handle, though I prefer moderate stiffness in what most people would consider too long a length.

Years ago I demoed a ski that was too stiff to bend, and it was very frustrating. I would be curious to see what I could do with them now. Several years after that, I demoed a different pair of huge skis (Cham 127 in the only length 190) and they were a lot of fun, but I had to ski them differently and faster than usual.

This most recent trip, I had a different problem -- too much in a different dimension -- with the Stockli Laser AX I bought used. I was skiing boot-top cut up powder near the bookends at Snowbird, and they kept overr-turning on me. Made me very nervous. I also found that when they hooked up on groomers they were hard on my knee. I think with a little more prep time on my knee, some mileage to get used to them, and some technique adjustment, I will be able to make them perform the way they are supposed to. But last week for one snapshot in time they were "too much ski."

Tony - 168. 5' 9ish. 58 years old. Retired. Lots of cross-fit based workouts. 15 - 18 hours of road / mtn bike in summer. Laser AX's in 175. Lazer SC in 168. I tend to stay in the 165 - 175 range.

Reading into what you wrote... and I am only basing it on your words so the input is limited... I suspect that you may be initiating by creating tension in your core to rotate the skis. When you do that you have to do something to stop that rotation - you limit the tactical options available to you.

The Lazer AX's are my most compliant ski. I can teach all day in the beginner area and not have to work them to turn them, or I can ski bumps, crud, powder on the mtn with a hard charger. I recommend them to any of my private clients who are getting their parallel on. It is a ski that will always be in their quiver. Good on you for purchasing them. I often teach with my Dynastar Speed Zone 10's because the top skins are already trashed.

I key for you may be to "let go of control to gain control". It a core philosophy of mine in instruction and my own skiing. Release the new inside ski before seeking the security of the new outside ski. I tend to not engage in technique discussions on-line, because the medium is way too limiting.

Keep in mind... longer skis = less edge engagement due to fewer pounds per square inch of pressure.

Enjoy brother. Look me up if you get to SW CO.
 

mdf

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Just FYI, my other skis are a similar length but with a longer sidecut radius -- Atomic Automatic 109's. I felt completely comfortable on them in the same conditions. Atomics are 189, radius in the mid 20's I think, Stocklis are 183, radius 17.5.

I'm coming off of knee surgery, and when I engaged the tips agressively on groomers, I felt the torque in my knee. I may have been trying too hard since the skis were new. A few days later, I was able to make agressive (but maybe longer radius?) carved turns on the DPS demos.

I am 61 years old, used to be 5'10", about 205 pounds.

20180318_125141.jpg


@Tony S is a "finesse" skier with beautiful form even in difficult conditions. He likes to make shorter radius turns, so he may be experiencing a mismatch between his preferred turn shape and the ski's preferred turn shape.
 

François Pugh

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A lot of "depends" here. If your preferred method of turning/skiing is carving shorter arc-2-arc turns, it's pretty easy: get an ordinary rental and carve some turns. They will be so easy and effortless to bend into a tighter turn, but they won't hold the edge in a hard turn. There's your compromise - ease of making them turn arc-2-arc tight turns versus edge hold in a hard (high g) arc-2-arc turn.

Another issue you may or may not encounter is that every ski has a range of turn speeds and radii it was designed to perform best at. If you are used to making longish high g turns, it could be that the ski you're testing wants (was designed to) to make smaller turns than you want to make once you get them tipped on edge far enough to hold the turns you want to make, e.g. if you are used to making high-g high speed turns on a ski with a very long radius and you try them on a ski with an 18 m radius you won't like the result. That's not a question of too much ski or not enough ski, just not the ski for what you're trying to do with it.
 

mdf

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. if you are used to making high-g high speed turns on a ski with a very long radius and you try them on a ski with an 18 m radius you won't like the result

Agreed. That's why I am hopeful that some time to get used to them will do the trick. (I also have a pair of real slalom skis, radius something like 13.5, but I have not been on them this year.)
 

Lauren

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Much of the time a skier can’t tell theyre on “too much of a ski” until something goes wrong. I ski that is way stiffer and/or longer will be unwieldy an hard to control; most people can tell right away that this is not the ski for them. However, a ski only slightly stiffer and/or longer than appropriate will normally give a sense of stability and therefore create an illusion of control. It’s not until this skier gets into tight situations in bumps, trees or chutes, or needs to stop on a dime to avoid something that they realize they don’t actually have control.
 

oldschoolskier

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Once you are above beginner and well into the intermediate stage it is hard to be over skied (unless sized wrong or get extremely advance skis as ski designs have very large ranges in ability), it far easier to underbooted (too soft) or too loosely fitted (big box store solution for comfort).

Beginner boots or loose fit do not transmit input to the ski, so a ski feels to be too much of a ski.

As you upgrade boots first (match ability, etc) plus allow for growth in development so a little extra is ok here. Skis then become less the issue.
 
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Wilhelmson

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If you can't turn them quickly on the upper level of terrain you intend on using them for they might be too long, stiff, heavy, or just not your style.

Kids usually have to grow into their new skis a bit. Hopefully my kid's new 148s with attack 11s slow him down enough for me to beat him on a few mogul runs.
 

DonC

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I'm trying to reconcile two ideas that I might not have straight: first that a stiffer medium radius ski will naturally require more speed to load and bend into turn, second that speed masks flaws in technique. So when I'm skiing fast on hard snow I often consciously slow down and try to make sure I'm making rounder turns, and find that especially on very steep terrain the ski isn't doing what I want it to do, and assume its my technique/ fore aft balance. In addition, when I do this, I find I'm putting so much pressure through my foot that the ball of the foot and/or arch starts to ache like crazy (but I can ski soft snow all day with no foot discomfort). But maybe I'm really on a ski too stiff/boots that are too soft?
 

AmyPJ

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Much of the time a skier can’t tell theyre on “too much of a ski” until something goes wrong. I ski that is way stiffer and/or longer will be unwieldy an hard to control; most people can tell right away that this is not the ski for them. However, a ski only slightly stiffer and/or longer than appropriate will normally give a sense of stability and therefore create an illusion of control. It’s not until this skier gets into tight situations in bumps, trees or chutes, or needs to stop on a dime to avoid something that they realize they don’t actually have control.

Ding ding ding ding ding! This was me--it created a park and ride skier in me. Not a fun bunch of habits to fix. Went to shorter skis this season (ski lengths that are very appropriate for my height/weight/skill set) and suddenly, I'm a lot happier in crud and bumps. It's not easy to go to a shorter ski at first, but once you get used to it, it's magical.
 

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