Hop turns?

[HeluvaSkier]

Helluva,
Nice turns. I'm curious... what skis are you on in those clips?

Thanks LF,
I'm on a bunch of stuff in those clips... Ugly boots are Fischer 150s. Black boots are Dobie 150s.

Clip 1: Blossom Snoras 180
Clip 2: Blossom Snoras 180
Clip 3: Fischer WC SL 165
Clip 4: Blossom Snoras 180
Clip 5: Fischer WC GS 188/27
Clip 6: Salomon Sentinel 184

 

[Crank]

We both know you could have left it at "skiers trying to execute perfect technique," instead of taking a shot at the source. Not really a value-add since an actual expert at said technique can ski those kinds of conditions with ease. From the sounds of it neither practitioner was particularly good at executing what they had been taught and were probably learning, so why call them out? If our paths cross someday, do you want me to hop the internet skiing forum of your choice and list off how I measured my wait time with a calendar, and how it reflects upon the instruction source of your choice [or lack of one]? I don't think either really fosters a civil discussion, do you?

Doesn't really matter to me what instruction philosophy is applied.. I just thought they should have applied a technique that worked. Both were capable enough. And I doubt they had been taught hop turns... except maybe by me had they but tried.

 

[KevinF]

I am fairly sure that if you know how to release your edges that hop turns become something that are needed much less of the time, sure are fun though.

I'm not sure I've ever thought of hop turns as being "fun". I suck at them though. They do come in handy in tight spots though (that stupid little rocky exit chute from Bypass comes to mind...).

 

[Josh Matta]

IF they are not fun you are not using ski performance ! You can get a ton of hop from the tail as well .... or just from decambering the ski in the mid section.

the reality is though as I have become better with releasing the old outside ski, they have become less necessary.

keep a Rhythm, keep the separation happening at the hip joint and you can keep hop turns going for basically for ever going down a steep slope.


that is Long Trail Chute a lot narrower than when you came to ski it with us, hop turns for the first 3/4 quarter was the only viable tactic for the skis and condition that day. what else I want to mention is you still have to release your edges in a hop turn, a lot of people do not and end up looking awkward or like they are actually trying.

 

[Danny]

Hop turns are a good tactic for skiing heavy crud. I recall a day skiing untracked snow on a 55 degree day in Vail's China Bowl. Fairly low angle stuff. I took off first, told my 11-year old son to jump up out of the glop and turn like I was. He followed me in and did just fine. We were with 2 Epic Bears we met up with out there. One was an advanced skier the other a solid intermediate...both had come off 3 days of instruction at a place that is much reviled on Epic (rhymes with barb). My son and I waited a good 5 minutes for them to make their way down that easy pitch.

Used to call them airplane turns back in the day.

Hi Crank, I hope I see you in VT soon!
I've found that getting really low also works in heavy crud, and while it can be hard on the legs, its way easier than hopping out of the snow. Also, if its low angle (and there are no trees in the way or anything, you can just be patient and let the turn happen slowly.
I think of airplane turns as something different—when you hop off a bolder or a small cliff and turn in midair—like when you ski up to the edge of something. set your edge and plant your pole, and then turn your skis as you take off and land facing the other way.

 

[Danny]

Best discussion of hop turns I've seen is by the DesLauriers, who describe a pedal hop turn (you get the air by standing up on your uphill foot) and distinguish 3 levels of aggressiveness depending on whether you try to come all the way around in the air and land facing in the opposite direction or whether you only come part way around and land in the fall line, ready to carve the second half of the turn. Their main point is that for most situations getting to the fall line in the air does enough to minimize the time you spend in the fall line that you don't lose control of your speed. Old style Scot Schmidt style hop turns are a lot more work. Their explanation (with pictures) is here: https://books.google.ca/books?id=90ofumWiAncC&pg=PA60&dq=deslauriers+pedal+hop+vs+pedal+carve+turn&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-XJeVKHeHOX1iQLDvIDwCA&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=deslauriers pedal hop vs pedal carve turn&f=false

Josh, correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks to me like some of what you are doing on long trail chute is what they call "pedal-to-carve" (and a lot of the time you look like your just taking advantage of the terrain & momentum to bring the skis around quickly).

 

[Danny]

Here's a clip of me skiing some cut up windblown powder on roughly a 35-40 degree pitch [starting at 0:50, maybe 6-8 inches deep]. Notice the skis come up out of the snow during transition but I am retracting... this is similar to what I am describing.

Heluva, That's sweet skiing, and I know its steeper than it looks, but it doesn't look anywhere close to 35-40 degrees, which would make it some of the steepest skiing in the east. Not really the sort of terrain in which hop turns would come into play.

 

[Danny]

A great demonstration of what looks a pedal hop carve

 

[James]

Hop turns are like eating pork or mixing meat and dairy. Not kosher in some religions. Extremely unpure and forbidden. Some of the religion follow kosher practices, some don't.

Look for the religion to change it's theology in the coming years. A lost scroll will be found in which it's discovered the high priest actually invented the move. Yet it couldn't be revealed to the minions until they were properly indoctrinated and proven to be stought of faith lest they be confused and sullied. It will have a different name and be superior to the Neanderthal grub picking move Cometjo deployed in a Vail bowl.

 

[Monique]

Hop turns are like eating pork or mixing meat and dairy. Not kosher in some religions. Extremely unpure and forbidden. Some of the religion follow kosher practices, some don't.

Are they? Every instructor I've ever had, even the most by-the-book of PSIA instructors, has been very clear on one point - every technique and tactic has its place.

 

[tball]

The last few times out i have found my self doing some hop turns in steepish (30*+) spots where it is a bit concave and the snow is inconsistent catchy crud. Usually I am just hopping in transition and finishing the turn normally. I have never done these before this year and the first few have been by accident. Is this a reasonable approach for the situation?

One thing I'll add for our OP is to use terrain variations where available to minimize how much you need to hop to initiate your turn. If you turn on a bump or pile of snow then your skis are naturally unweighted and it doesn't take much effort to have the same effect.

I agree with others hop turns are a very useful tool in the toolkit, especially in steep and narrow and/or crummy snow. There are lots of places and conditions where carving a turn isn't possible but for the best and bravest skiers like, say, Candide.

 

[HeluvaSkier]

Heluva, That's sweet skiing, and I know its steeper than it looks, but it doesn't look anywhere close to 35-40 degrees, which would make it some of the steepest skiing in the east. Not really the sort of terrain in which hop turns would come into play.

That run isn't in the east... And allegedly it has been measured in the range I provided. Hardly mandatory hop turn territory I agree, but really the point here is easier alternatives to hop turns in challenging snow, but on terrain that doesn't require them.

 

[Doug Briggs]

Hop turns have their place. If a carved or slarved turn will take up too much horizontal space (the terrain is too narrow), then hop. If a carved or slarved turn would generate too much speed, hop.

[The following discussion is presented in the context of dealing primarily with deep or heavy snow on terrain of moderate to high pitch. It can also be applied to narrow (couloirs or chutes) or restricted terrain (trees)]

Hopping can be very tiring. Too many put their effort in going up when going out is easier and more effective. By going up, you are lifting your body higher than necessary when by going out you take advantage of the pitch to gain distance between your skis and the snow AS WELL AS you get further down the slope necessitating fewer turns to cover the same amount of vertical pitch. The only need to go up is to have your skis clear the snow they are in to prevent twisting out of the bindings.

Consider, also, that the steeper the terrain, the more likely your twisting skis' tails are to hit the snow behind you. This is another reason for projecting horizontally away from the slope rather than vertically; you gain more room for your skis to swing around.

I'll agree with @Josh Matta to say that you can use the skis to empower your hop turns by not stopping between each hop. Let the reverse camber of the ski help you pop back up and out by doing continuous turns, akin to not traversing, but linking your turns. Also, many revert to hop turns before needed. Control your speed with complete turns and let the ski develop a big bend to carve through manky snow rather than revert to hops. Most times if you control your speed, you'll find you can turn your way down treacherous terrain rather than resort to hops.

I use hop turns primarily when the path is less than a ski width for an extended distance. Otherwise I let the ski carve and fly/pop out of the snow during transition so, as @Kneale Brownson points out, I'm making an edge change out of the snow. This can look like 'old school' powder technique, but they did it for the same reasons that you'll want to try it. To get the skis to change edge AND direction without yanking them off your feet by applying strong rotary movements while the skis are IN the snow.

 

[cantunamunch]

Hopping can be very tiring. Too many put their effort in going up when going out is easier and more effective. By going up, you are lifting your body higher than necessary when by going out you take advantage of the pitch to gain distance between your skis and the snow AS WELL AS you get further down the slope necessitating fewer turns to cover the same amount of vertical pitch. The only need to go up is to have your skis clear the snow they are in to prevent twisting out of the bindings.

Consider, also, that the steeper the terrain, the more likely your twisting skis' tails are to hit the snow behind you. This is another reason for projecting horizontally away from the slope rather than vertically; you gain more room for your skis to swing around.

Have we started talking about the pole plants yet?

 

[Doug Briggs]

No. I didn't contemplate discussing it until you mentioned it.

Basically pole plants with hop turns are similar to when you pole plant with regular turns. They mark the end of the turn and lead to (but aren't necessarily) the beginning of the next turn. I try to avoid double pole plants when hop turning as the pole can get caught up in the snow and block the turn. I find that as I work my way down the pitch, the pole plant helps maintain rhythm (continuous hops are easier than hop, stop, hop, stop), provides an anchor to pivot around (and can be used in a blocking manner) and aids in balance.

 

[crgildart]

I really love hop turns and wish I still had the stamina to link them down something significant these days...

Hop Turns=Side Slipping with Style! (and not much slippage)..

Too narrow to ski, including wedge?
Too steep and long (or too chicken?) to straighline?
Hop turns or side slipping are the only real alternatives once you're committed... or walking back up..

 

[cantunamunch]

No. I didn't contemplate discussing it until you mentioned it.

Given you were already talking of projecting out instead of jumping up, separation at the hip, and getting to the fall line in the air, it seemed a natural segue.

Using the pole plant as a cue for the projection, as it were.

 

[Doug Briggs]

I was taking the bottom up approach. Let the hands (poles) take care of themselves.

In all seriousness, I generally try to present a single aspect of change when I'm coaching. Talk about changing how the feet work and what to do with the poles at the same time may lead to over-saturation and confusion.

 

[crgildart]

I learned hop turns top down, start with the hands and the body follows them around..
Plant
Hop/turn
Plant
Hop/turn
Plant
Hop/turn
etc..

It's really almost simultaneous though with the hop happening as you are reaching sometimes..

 

[tball]

@tromano, my husband does those in Lone Tree, I believe! He just skied it today. I look up there and shudder.

I shuddered a bit when I fell and rolled over in Lone Tree last year.

Here are non-POV and POV shots of me skiing two different steep chutes, Gunsight at Alta and Lone Tree at Snowbasin, hopping as deemed necessary for survival. Lone Tree is the third and fourth clips.