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skipress

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The manufactures usually buy their plastics unpigmented and add color masterbatch to obtain the color required.

vlcsnap-2018-02-18-11h49m22s990.jpg


These can alter the properties of the plastic, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masterbatch White masterbatch contains titanium dioxide which is known to catalyze the UV degradation of plastics, which is why the Raptors turn yellow. Black masterbatch contains carbon black which inhibits UV degradation.

Many of the brands past and present didn’t / don’t make their own ski boots, there has always been a massive amount of sub-contracting. Atomic / Salomon have all their boots manufactured by a sub-contractor in Romania https://www.plastor.ro/en/products-and-technology/finished-goods-subcontracting/

That's really interesting, is that the case with all of the boots. As with skis it's always been the case that you'd see brand factory X making for brand y... I know Roxa do quite a lot, and someone recently told me who makes Fischer boots [and I am stuffed if i can recall] but...

Do the Romanian guys make all, or pretty much all of the Salomons and Atomics - it's usually been the case that the mfgrs try to keep the top/innovative stuff in house? Not doubting your information - if they make the lot as opposed to just [say] the bottom and middle models it's a really interesting story.

On the colours - bear in mind my Lange meeting was a number of years ago. At that point they had 'bought in' coloured pellets - I saw drums of blue ones and dipped my hands in 'em [and they came up with the 'blue is stiffer' line]. However things have probably moved on since them.
 

Uncle-A

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The manufactures usually buy their plastics unpigmented and add color masterbatch to obtain the color required.

vlcsnap-2018-02-18-11h49m22s990.jpg


These can alter the properties of the plastic, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masterbatch White masterbatch contains titanium dioxide which is known to catalyze the UV degradation of plastics, which is why the Raptors turn yellow. Black masterbatch contains carbon black which inhibits UV degradation.

Many of the brands past and present didn’t / don’t make their own ski boots, there has always been a massive amount of sub-contracting. Atomic / Salomon have all their boots manufactured by a sub-contractor in Romania https://www.plastor.ro/en/products-and-technology/finished-goods-subcontracting/
This is something I have heard before, back in the 70's & 80's the tech reps would talk about three plastic factories in Italy that pumped out most of the boots that said made in Italy, regardless of the boot manufacturers name. That may have been as many as ten different boot names of that era.
 
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Noodler

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The manufactures usually buy their plastics unpigmented and add color masterbatch to obtain the color required.

vlcsnap-2018-02-18-11h49m22s990.jpg


These can alter the properties of the plastic, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masterbatch White masterbatch contains titanium dioxide which is known to catalyze the UV degradation of plastics, which is why the Raptors turn yellow. Black masterbatch contains carbon black which inhibits UV degradation.

Many of the brands past and present didn’t / don’t make their own ski boots, there has always been a massive amount of sub-contracting. Atomic / Salomon have all their boots manufactured by a sub-contractor in Romania https://www.plastor.ro/en/products-and-technology/finished-goods-subcontracting/

Very interesting.
 

Uncle-A

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Just a thought about the plastic that they mix and it is not about color. If they can blend the plastic for different stiffness (100 - 130) don't you think they could blend the plastic so they know when it will brake down? Pre determined obsolescence is just a chemical formula away.
 
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Noodler

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Just a thought about the plastic that they mix and it is not about color. If they can blend the plastic for different stiffness (100 - 130) don't you think they could blend the plastic so they know when it will brake down? Pre determined obsolescence is just a chemical formula away.

My understanding is that different plastics have different flex characteristics, but that the adjustment of boot flex stiffness across a model line is done by changing the thickness of the plastic, not through a "blending" process of different plastics. We do now have Lange Dual Core technology, but that's not plastic blending the way I think you're describing it. Maybe I'm wrong, but if I was engineering a solution, it would seem that plastic blending would be more complex/costly.
 

cantunamunch

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My understanding is that different plastics have different flex characteristics, but that the adjustment of boot flex stiffness across a model line is done by changing the thickness of the plastic, not through a "blending" process of different plastics. We do now have Lange Dual Core technology, but that's not plastic blending the way I think you're describing it. Maybe I'm wrong, but if I was engineering a solution, it would seem that plastic blending would be more complex/costly.

I don't really buy into deliberately engineered obsolescence in ski boots. There are so many different quantities that need to be controlled for - things like bubble forming in the mould, ambient water adsorption by pigments and additives , pigment dispersion into the plasticiser - that controlling for product durability independently of all those other factors is a pipe dream. Nothing in the process is independent of all the other things, and taken as a whole the process will obviously be optimised for product uniformity, reliability and cost - with product lifetime significantly down the list because those other qualities are critical to getting any product out the door in the first place.
 
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Noodler

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I don't really buy into deliberately engineered obsolescence in ski boots. There are so many different quantities that need to be controlled for - things like bubble forming in the mould, ambient water adsorption by pigments and additives , pigment dispersion into the plasticiser - that controlling for product durability independently of all those other factors is a pipe dream. Nothing in the process is independent of all the other things, and taken as a whole the process will obviously be optimised for product uniformity, reliability and cost - with product lifetime significantly down the list because those other qualities are critical to getting any product out the door in the first place.

I think you were actually responding to @Uncle-A.
 

Sethmasia

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Jumping in here very late but I can provide some context for the discussion above:

Raichle: Wikipedia article is largely accurate but the company was founded in 1909 and has some history. See https://skiinghistory.org/history/glance-switzerlands-skiing-history

Missing from the discussion is Henke, another Swiss company best known for introducing buckles to replace laces, in 1955-56. See https://skiinghistory.org/history/buckle-boot-invention-1955 Henke was also an early adopter of external-tongue or "cabriolet" design. around 1970. See https://www.skiinghistory.org/history/origin-three-piece-ski-boot

Also missing is Kastinger, another old-line family-owned Austrian factory. Herman Kastinger invested a ton of cash to make injection-molded plastic hiking boots. Aside from the Austrian army, no one wanted to buy them. The company went bankrupt and closed in 1980.

Dynafit began life in 1950 as the Humanic Shoe Company of Graz, Austria, and I fitted a lot of Humanic boots around 1970-71. The name was changed after Fischer acquired the factory in 1972.

For the relationship between Lange and Rossignol, see https://skiinghistory.org/history/100-years-rossignol Very briefly, in 1976 Lange was bought by Laurent Boix-Vive, who also controlled Rossignol. Lange was the only ski boot in the Rossi empire until 1994 when the company bought Caber and rebranded it as Rossignol boots. At the time the boots were made in different factories (Lange in Bolzano, Caber/Rossignol in Montebelluna) and the designs remained very different for many years.

Back in 1982 I visited Montebelluna in Italy. At the time the town manufactured 70 or 80% of the world's alpine ski boots. Much has changed since then but you may be amused to read "The Italian Connection."

When Salomon entered the boot business in 1980 it designed and made all its own components, at the French factory. Eventually it became clear that using more standard techniques and components mass-produced elsewhere was a lot cheaper and therefore more profitable when competing with the Italian brands. So Salomon acquired the San Giorgio factory and moved production there. Someone suggested that Hans Heierling was involved in Salomon design -- not so. When plastic molding came in, Heierling outsourced production to factories in Slovenia, Italy and Germany. Later they licensed the Salomon SNS cross-country patent (1980), and the slider-in-slot flex control mechanism for alpine boots, invented for the Salomon SX92 (1989) See https://www.skiinghistory.org/news/whatever-happened-heierling

For an overview of ski boot history see https://www.skiinghistory.org/history/history-ski-boots

Cheers!
 

Uncle-A

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Jumping in here very late but I can provide some context for the discussion above:

Raichle: Wikipedia article is largely accurate but the company was founded in 1909 and has some history. See https://skiinghistory.org/history/glance-switzerlands-skiing-history

Missing from the discussion is Henke, another Swiss company best known for introducing buckles to replace laces, in 1955-56. See https://skiinghistory.org/history/buckle-boot-invention-1955 Henke was also an early adopter of external-tongue or "cabriolet" design. around 1970. See https://www.skiinghistory.org/history/origin-three-piece-ski-boot

Also missing is Kastinger, another old-line family-owned Austrian factory. Herman Kastinger invested a ton of cash to make injection-molded plastic hiking boots. Aside from the Austrian army, no one wanted to buy them. The company went bankrupt and closed in 1980.

Dynafit began life in 1950 as the Humanic Shoe Company of Graz, Austria, and I fitted a lot of Humanic boots around 1970-71. The name was changed after Fischer acquired the factory in 1972.

For the relationship between Lange and Rossignol, see https://skiinghistory.org/history/100-years-rossignol Very briefly, in 1976 Lange was bought by Laurent Boix-Vive, who also controlled Rossignol. Lange was the only ski boot in the Rossi empire until 1994 when the company bought Caber and rebranded it as Rossignol boots. At the time the boots were made in different factories (Lange in Bolzano, Caber/Rossignol in Montebelluna) and the designs remained very different for many years.

Back in 1982 I visited Montebelluna in Italy. At the time the town manufactured 70 or 80% of the world's alpine ski boots. Much has changed since then but you may be amused to read "The Italian Connection."

When Salomon entered the boot business in 1980 it designed and made all its own components, at the French factory. Eventually it became clear that using more standard techniques and components mass-produced elsewhere was a lot cheaper and therefore more profitable when competing with the Italian brands. So Salomon acquired the San Giorgio factory and moved production there. Someone suggested that Hans Heierling was involved in Salomon design -- not so. When plastic molding came in, Heierling outsourced production to factories in Slovenia, Italy and Germany. Later they licensed the Salomon SNS cross-country patent (1980), and the slider-in-slot flex control mechanism for alpine boots, invented for the Salomon SX92 (1989) See https://www.skiinghistory.org/news/whatever-happened-heierling

For an overview of ski boot history see https://www.skiinghistory.org/history/history-ski-boots

Cheers!
I am glad you jumped in with your background in the ski business history. I thought it interesting that you said the Wikipedia article was largely correct, I have found more than a few errors in Wikipedia, not ski related but other subject. It is unfortunate because todays students use it as a totally accurate source. Thanks for your input, always enjoy your work.
 

Swiss Toni

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Munari did a good job replicating Nordica.

As well as making the first injection molded plastic boot Nordica, along with their industrial partners developed the means to make them. Industrie Meccaniche Lorenzin S.p.A. developed a special injection molding machine and API (Applicazioni Plastiche Industriali) S.p.A. the plastic (Apilon 52 TPU). So, if you wanted to make plastic ski boots you had to use the Nordica process, lots of the other companies also copied their designs.

In 1982 Brixa bought the Munari trademark and patents and acquired San Marco in 1989. In 1990 Brixia joined the HTM Group (Head, Tyrolia, Mares), which was subsequently bought by the Austrian state-owned tobacco company Austria Tabak in 1993. In 1995 Austria Tabak sold HTM to Johan Eliasch, who marketed the boots under the Head brand. Head boots are currently made in the Czech Republic by the Head subsidiary HTM Sport s.r.o., which also makes some of the Fischer boots.

@Sethmasia, in your article "The Italian Connection" you state that ski boot molds are made from steel. This is a common misconception, ski boot molds along with most other footwear molds are made from aluminum.

When Salomon entered the boot business in 1980 it designed and made all its own components, at the French factory.

The first Salomon rear entry boot was based on a Swiss design. Salomon acquired the patent and refined the design, see DE2907163 (A1) ― 1980-08-28 “Ski-boot with swiveling opening section - fitted with locking devices to lock swivel section when closed and capable of being released against spring tension”. It was designed by Ulrich Gertsch who also designed some binding toe pieces for Salomon, the Gertsch plate binding and the original Fritschi ski touring binding.

The Heierling family sold their boot manufacturing business to Salomon in 1994 who sold Heierling branded Salomon boots from then until 1997.

The Heierling H1 is made from Riteflex TPC-ET, a polyester elastomer, the shells are molded by Alpina and the liners are made inhouse. Heierling also supplies boot boards to the Japanese boot company Aviriva.
 

skipress

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As well as making the first injection molded plastic boot Nordica, along with their industrial partners developed the means to make them. Industrie Meccaniche Lorenzin S.p.A. developed a special injection molding machine and API (Applicazioni Plastiche Industriali) S.p.A. the plastic (Apilon 52 TPU). So, if you wanted to make plastic ski boots you had to use the Nordica process, lots of the other companies also copied their designs.

In 1982 Brixa bought the Munari trademark and patents and acquired San Marco in 1989. In 1990 Brixia joined the HTM Group (Head, Tyrolia, Mares), which was subsequently bought by the Austrian state-owned tobacco company Austria Tabak in 1993. In 1995 Austria Tabak sold HTM to Johan Eliasch, who marketed the boots under the Head brand. Head boots are currently made in the Czech Republic by the Head subsidiary HTM Sport s.r.o., which also makes some of the Fischer boots.

@Sethmasia, in your article "The Italian Connection" you state that ski boot molds are made from steel. This is a common misconception, ski boot molds along with most other footwear molds are made from aluminum.

The first Salomon rear entry boot was based on a Swiss design. Salomon acquired the patent and refined the design, see DE2907163 (A1) ― 1980-08-28 “Ski-boot with swiveling opening section - fitted with locking devices to lock swivel section when closed and capable of being released against spring tension”. It was designed by Ulrich Gertsch who also designed some binding toe pieces for Salomon, the Gertsch plate binding and the original Fritschi ski touring binding.

The Heierling family sold their boot manufacturing business to Salomon in 1994 who sold Heierling branded Salomon boots from then until 1997.

The Heierling H1 is made from Riteflex TPC-ET, a polyester elastomer, the shells are molded by Alpina and the liners are made inhouse. Heierling also supplies boot boards to the Japanese boot company Aviriva.

Ah well you ve answered my Fischer question.

Are you are about that patent as it seems to reference a connection with Daiwa, who subsequently bought Hanson and made boots that look a bit like the sketches under the Hanson brand. The patents seem to relate more closely to the Gen2 salomon boots, the SX91 onwards, the SX90 was as I remember launched in 1979 and that's before the patent.

Heierling were also available on this side of the pond under San Giorgio. They held some of the patents for the SX91/2 flex adjuster.
 

skipress

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Jumping in here very late but I can provide some context for the discussion above:

Raichle: Wikipedia article is largely accurate but the company was founded in 1909 and has some history. See https://skiinghistory.org/history/glance-switzerlands-skiing-history

Missing from the discussion is Henke, another Swiss company best known for introducing buckles to replace laces, in 1955-56. See https://skiinghistory.org/history/buckle-boot-invention-1955 Henke was also an early adopter of external-tongue or "cabriolet" design. around 1970. See https://www.skiinghistory.org/history/origin-three-piece-ski-boot

Also missing is Kastinger, another old-line family-owned Austrian factory. Herman Kastinger invested a ton of cash to make injection-molded plastic hiking boots. Aside from the Austrian army, no one wanted to buy them. The company went bankrupt and closed in 1980.

Dynafit began life in 1950 as the Humanic Shoe Company of Graz, Austria, and I fitted a lot of Humanic boots around 1970-71. The name was changed after Fischer acquired the factory in 1972.

For the relationship between Lange and Rossignol, see https://skiinghistory.org/history/100-years-rossignol Very briefly, in 1976 Lange was bought by Laurent Boix-Vive, who also controlled Rossignol. Lange was the only ski boot in the Rossi empire until 1994 when the company bought Caber and rebranded it as Rossignol boots. At the time the boots were made in different factories (Lange in Bolzano, Caber/Rossignol in Montebelluna) and the designs remained very different for many years.

Back in 1982 I visited Montebelluna in Italy. At the time the town manufactured 70 or 80% of the world's alpine ski boots. Much has changed since then but you may be amused to read "The Italian Connection."

When Salomon entered the boot business in 1980 it designed and made all its own components, at the French factory. Eventually it became clear that using more standard techniques and components mass-produced elsewhere was a lot cheaper and therefore more profitable when competing with the Italian brands. So Salomon acquired the San Giorgio factory and moved production there. Someone suggested that Hans Heierling was involved in Salomon design -- not so. When plastic molding came in, Heierling outsourced production to factories in Slovenia, Italy and Germany. Later they licensed the Salomon SNS cross-country patent (1980), and the slider-in-slot flex control mechanism for alpine boots, invented for the Salomon SX92 (1989) See https://www.skiinghistory.org/news/whatever-happened-heierling

For an overview of ski boot history see https://www.skiinghistory.org/history/history-ski-boots

Cheers!

My understanding is that Seth is right here [and he's in a position to know]. I briefly did a bit of work with Heierling in the 80s when they were looking at expanding their european markets.

One addition, the Lange Rossi comments are correct, however they bought Trappeur at the same time. I have a feeling Kerma might also have been connected to that deal but I stand to be corrected.

They bought Caber from the Caberlotto family but the family kept the Lotto sports brand. I seem to remember the factories were next to each other in Montebelluna.
 

Uncle-A

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My understanding is that Seth is right here [and he's in a position to know]. I briefly did a bit of work with Heierling in the 80s when they were looking at expanding their european markets.

One addition, the Lange Rossi comments are correct, however they bought Trappeur at the same time. I have a feeling Kerma might also have been connected to that deal but I stand to be corrected.

They bought Caber from the Caberlotto family but the family kept the Lotto sports brand. I seem to remember the factories were next to each other in Montebelluna.
One of the shops that I worked for sold both the Caber ski boots and the Lotto after ski boots. The after ski boots were made with good quality but they didn't have a good fashion design that a lot of our customers wanted. Also it was around the same time after ski boots became less popular.
 

Swiss Toni

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Fischer boots are also by Monteco, a subcontractor that also makes boots for Dynafit, La Sportiva, and Scott.

I’m pretty sure, but you would have to speak to Ulrich (Ulo) Gertsch or gain access to Salomon’s archives to be certain. If you look at the drawing in the patent it closely resembles the SX90.

SX-90.jpg


1980-08-28 was the publication date, the application date was 1979-02-23. One of the patents cited in DE2907163 is DE2317408 (A1) ― 1973-10-31, another Gertsch patent that covered the cable path.

SX90a.jpg


The SX91 flex adjuster was designed in-house by Roland Petrini, Serge Pradier and Michel Mabboux.

San Giorgio started making cross-country ski boots for Salomon in 1983, so it was no surprise when Salomon bought them in 1993. When the rear entry design proved to be a dead-end Salomon desperately needed 4-clip design and production expertise, San Giorgio was the obvious target. After Adidas took over Salomon in 1997 production was moved to eastern europe and the far east, but some R&D remained in Maser until 2008.

In 1974, the Caberlotto family sold Caber to the American multinational Spalding, part of the Questor group. Giovanni Caberlotto continued to manage the company until 1979. In 1981 Questor sold Caber and Spalding skis to the Canadian company Warrington Inc. Warrington also bought Kerma and Trappeur around the same time, after incurring heavy losses Warrington sold Caber to Lange in 1986, Kerma and Trappeur were sold to Rossignol and Spalding was bought by Elio Pedrotti.

Lotto was setup using the money that the Caberlotto family obtained from the sale of Caber, initially it was run by Alberto and Sergio Caberlotto and concentrated on the Italian market. There was a “non-competition” clause in the sale agreement with Questor that prevented them from making ski boots. Giovanni Caberlotto joined the company in 1980 after which they began to sell and produce footwear outside Italy. They are still in business https://www.lotto.it/eng/
 

James

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I’m pretty sure, but you would have to speak to Ulrich (Ulo) Gertsch or gain access to Salomon’s archives to be certain. If you look at the drawing in the patent it closely resembles the SX90.
IMG_6572.JPG

Interesting in that top of the foot hold down is one of the keys in Daved McPhail's studies. I'd say this one might be a little too close to the ankle and interfere with the glide path of the ankle.
 

skipress

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Fischer boots are also by Monteco, a subcontractor that also makes boots for Dynafit, La Sportiva, and Scott.

I’m pretty sure, but you would have to speak to Ulrich (Ulo) Gertsch or gain access to Salomon’s archives to be certain. If you look at the drawing in the patent it closely resembles the SX90.

SX-90.jpg


1980-08-28 was the publication date, the application date was 1979-02-23. One of the patents cited in DE2907163 is DE2317408 (A1) ― 1973-10-31, another Gertsch patent that covered the cable path.

SX90a.jpg


The SX91 flex adjuster was designed in-house by Roland Petrini, Serge Pradier and Michel Mabboux.

San Giorgio started making cross-country ski boots for Salomon in 1983, so it was no surprise when Salomon bought them in 1993. When the rear entry design proved to be a dead-end Salomon desperately needed 4-clip design and production expertise, San Giorgio was the obvious target. After Adidas took over Salomon in 1997 production was moved to eastern europe and the far east, but some R&D remained in Maser until 2008.

In 1974, the Caberlotto family sold Caber to the American multinational Spalding, part of the Questor group. Giovanni Caberlotto continued to manage the company until 1979. In 1981 Questor sold Caber and Spalding skis to the Canadian company Warrington Inc. Warrington also bought Kerma and Trappeur around the same time, after incurring heavy losses Warrington sold Caber to Lange in 1986, Kerma and Trappeur were sold to Rossignol and Spalding was bought by Elio Pedrotti.

Lotto was setup using the money that the Caberlotto family obtained from the sale of Caber, initially it was run by Alberto and Sergio Caberlotto and concentrated on the Italian market. There was a “non-competition” clause in the sale agreement with Questor that prevented them from making ski boots. Giovanni Caberlotto joined the company in 1980 after which they began to sell and produce footwear outside Italy. They are still in business https://www.lotto.it/eng/

You re quite right on the Caber-Lotto-Questor thing.

I'm not totally sure on the Gertsch patent. The sketch doesn't seem to show a 'lever' to close the heel>instep cable, it looks more as if the cable is adjusted with a screw and then the closure of the spoiler tensions it.

The other thing is the date of the later patent that looks to be 1979 applied for. Now the Salomon 727 was launched in 1978 and they give a hint of the boot to follow by using early models in the ads. This one from Oct 78, you can see 90%+ of the SX90 there.


salomon 727 ad
by newcastle pubs, on Flickr

I also remember seeing prototypes in the mid-late 70s so it wouldn't quite fit with the patent being applied for in 79 when the design of the SX90 was already public. That's not to say that they were not also looking over each other's shoulders and less relevant here Montebelluna used to be famous for being 'leaky'. There was a mold maker [name escapes me] who was always pretty keen to show off his work, perhaps earlier than the clients hoped for :)
 

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