Help me identify this type of turn

[Bruno Schull]

Hi. I'm hoping you can help me identify what type of turn my wife makes, and perhaps offer some suggestions about how to progress.

My wife is 47, and has been skiing since she was a teenager. She has a smooth, fluid, elegant, low-speed, controlled style, and she can ski on all types of pistes and snow conditions, and off piste on moderate terrain in good conditions. The thing is, she does not carve. All of her turns are some kind of parallel or "parallelish" turn. Lately, she decided that she wanted to learn how to carve, and as a first step, she wants to know what she is doing now, and what she might do to progress toward a true carved turn.

So, when my wife makes a turn on a piste, her outside ski describes a smooth rounded curve. If anything, the curve tightens up a little, with a sharper bend in the direction of the turn at about the apex. At this same point in the turn--at about the apex--she picks up her inside ski, and brings it around quickly, so that it is pointing in the new direction parallel to the outside ski. This gives her turn a snappy "lifting and dropping" effect that I have always admired, as she "steps into place" with her inside ski.

At first I thought this sort of turn was some kind of stem turn or wedge turn or stem christie (spelling?) but a quick look at some videos convinced me that she is doing something very different. She definitely does not initiate turns with a wedge or snowplow, and she definitely does not lift and move her outside ski. Instead, she lifts her inside ski. Also, her turns are really controlled and fluid and smooth--she is not at all a beginner (although she may have stopped somewhere in a beginner to intermediate turn progression, and then refined her turn, if that makes sense).

As I said, it's a great, smooth, elegant turn. She just wants to try to ski more continuously parallel, and start to carve.

I suggested that she just keep her skis parallel through a more rounded turn, and concentrate on unweighting her inside ski, and drawing her inside foot back through the apex. She ended up making turns where her skis stay more consistently parallel, and the turn shape is maybe more rounded, but it's going to take some adjustment for it to feel smooth and natural. But I really don't know that was good advice at all, and if this is the right direction to go.

So:

1) Is there a name for the turn she is making now, where she lifts her inside ski?

2) What would be some simple steps or things for her to concentrate on as she moves toward carving?

OK, thanks,

Bruno

 

[RuleMiHa]

Google videos of Harald Harb's Phantom Move. Is it that? If not video would be helpful.

 

[Bruno Schull]

Hi--thanks for the reply. I looked at some videos of the Phantom Move. I would say that is essentially what she is doing but...she is not tilting the inside ski on edge, and she lifts the inside ski WAAAYYY more than in the videos. When she makes a turn at moderate speed, she will visibly lift up the inside ski, the tip perhaps 3-6 inches, the reach perhaps 10-12 inches or a little more. The inside ski is pointed tip-down, that is, she almost "swivels" the inside ski around an imaginary contact point near the front of the ski, but she usually lifts both ends off the snow. This seems much more exaggerated than the Phantom Move.

Maybe she could try "just doing what she is doing" but concentrate on keeping the inside ski closer to the ground?

 

[oldschoolskier]

My guess is that she started on straight skis. You are right on your assessment of what she’s doing. This was a step towards carving back then to get the skis carving. Most stopped at this point because it got difficult yet these skills let you ski just about anything so the incentive to progress further diminished.

Now (I hope) she’s on shaped skis, she needs to learn a few simple skills, in un-learn a few don’ts of straight skis, and adjust the timing a little on a few actions. While forgetting that step action.

The best solution find an old instructor that has skied both, they’ll likely be the best for this transition.

The second option (instructor not available) is roll on to the edge and let the skis carve, roll on, roll off. Shift balance fore and aft feel the results. More over she already has most of the skills needed, it’s just timing and feel.

Figure a solid 16 to 24hrs of focused work, spread over a week or season or two.

Carving in no time .

 

[Bruno Schull]

You are absolutely right--she did learn on straight skis, or, at least, much straighter skis. And because she never felt the need to ski really fast, or, at the time when she learned, off piste, she probably just stopped progressing when she had a smooth and effective turn.

I really like you advice...pick a wide, gentle piste with good snow conditions, roll the skis on edge, and let them carve. That's how I learned. That hard part is really rolling them on edge--I remember that at first it felt like I was on ice skates, and it was unstable. I feel like maybe you have to get the skis high up on edge, too high for a low/moderate speed, just to start the process, and then learn how to make the movement with more subtlety and control.

 

[RuleMiHa]

As someone who learned a stem christie on straight skis and is still trying to get rid of the remnants, "just roll them on edge and let them carve" can be a lot easier said than done.

 

[Mendieta]

@Bruno Schull

You are absolutely right--she did learn on straight skis, or, at least, much straighter skis. And because she never felt the need to ski really fast, or, at the time when she learned, off piste, she probably just stopped progressing when she had a smooth and effective turn.

I really like you advice...pick a wide, gentle piste with good snow conditions, roll the skis on edge, and let them carve. That's how I learned. That hard part is really rolling them on edge--I remember that at first it felt like I was on ice skates, and it was unstable. I feel like maybe you have to get the skis high up on edge, too high for a low/moderate speed, just to start the process, and then learn how to make the movement with more subtlety and control.

I believe, though, that the most relevant suggestion from @oldschoolskier was to taking a lesson IMHO. It is very easy to lose perspective with this kind of thing. Trying to learn how to "look like Mikaela". I don't think Mikaela gives a crap how she looks like. She wants to beat the clock, period.

When it comes down to your description above, it seems like your wife wants to access more terrain in more conditions. So, personally, I would first clear my mind as to what exactly I am looking for, as an outcome. Safer fast skier in groomers? Better speed control in ice? Offpiste in crappy conditions? Crud? Trees? All of the above? Then take at least a one hour lesson with a good instructor, and get an assessment of where she is, on what skis she can improve in her good skiing, in order to improve in that direction.

At least, that's the approach I take on my own (crappy) skiing It's not about looking good, it's not about doing tricks for video, it's about going places. How can I go to more places, safer, more efficiently, with a bigger smile. Cheers!

 

[oldschoolskier]

Well it all depend on how motivated you are. My mom (@ 69) several years back (about 09/10) went skiing with sister and family in BC, last time she skied was about 10 years earlier on straight skis.

I insisted she use my wife’s a women’s specific SL cut ski.

She used skied parallel with stem Christie’s, so we said, these will carve, just slightly wider stance and roll them on edge, she loved them and had a blast.

Depending on what I’m skiing I may still stem, it is part of a skill set that a lot of newer skiers don’t have (though need to learn to become better).

@RuleMiHa My suspicion if your still stemming you are a little back and not letting the skis do the work, get a shade further forward on your skis at the initiation. The second thing is you are too much on the outside ski and not sharing the load with the inside ski.

 

[mister moose]

You are describing the outside ski initially turning faster than the inside ski, so the need to later "step into place" presents itself. While there is no uphill stem, a wedge shape ensues until the inside ski is stepped to parallel.

What you have here is a wedge Christie, garden variety, with a step instead of a slide.

It is a lack of a simultaneous edge change. It may very well be a pushing off from the old downhill ski to steer the uphill ski into the next turn, leaving the old downhill ski lagging. Yes, take a lesson, Yes, go back to basics and a confidence inspiring slope. She needs to learn, or re-learn how to steer both feet simultaneously, and then gradually take it to more challenging terrain. There is no magic forum post for this.

 

[RuleMiHa]

@RuleMiHa My suspicion if your still stemming you are a little back and not letting the skis do the work, get a shade further forward on your skis at the initiation. The second thing is you are too much on the outside ski and not sharing the load with the inside ski.

These things are complicated. Every person has different challenges and it's impossible to diagnose on the internet from a quickie sentence. I have an instructor I work with and video is a regular part of the process. I've made boot adjustments and am working on technique regularly.

But for all that, unlearning old ingrained habitual movement patterns is more difficult for me than most. So be careful about assuming that just because something would work for you, it would work for anyone. That is often not the case.

 

[JohnnyG]

The lifting the inside ski thing reminded me of this, you may need a VPN if you're not in Canada to watch it. Does she do it like the older gent who raced on straight skis?

https://www.cbc.ca/natureofthings/episodes/champions-vs-legends

 

[oldschoolskier]

These things are complicated. Every person has different challenges and it's impossible to diagnose on the internet from a quickie sentence. I have an instructor I work with and video is a regular part of the process. I've made boot adjustments and am working on technique regularly.

But for all that, unlearning old ingrained habitual movement patterns is more difficult for me than most. So be careful about assuming that just because something would work for you, it would work for anyone. That is often not the case.

Never said it was easy, just an observation for my own transition (and of others still struggling with a simple transition). I skied straights up to 2011’ish. When I switched I had to opportunity to chase a couple of good skiers down the hill on a couple of occasions to see and mimic the differences.

The best advice I can give you is you are making too many changes at once (relatively speaking, ie boots, technique etc). Stick with the most important ones. Timing.

Technique is likely fine, the timing is not. Shapes skis need a little more input at the beginning and proper finish at the end to pop. As to how and exactly when these occur is where it makes a difference.

Seriously, don’t over think this, you likely skied well, remember that feeling and roll onto the edges, if they respond right and easy it’s correct, if not adjust slightly and repeat. Once you get there pick up the pace. The old skills will fill in what you need, just don’t push to hard to get the old (bad) ingrained habits to show. Progress slowly and have fun.

Really it’s that easy.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

What I am picturing is called Rotary Push-off.

 

[Bruno Schull]

Hi--thanks for all the replies.

1) oldschoolskier--I really like your advice (and my wife does too!)

2) We are totally onboard with taking lessons. I posted on here once for advice about good instructors in Europe. I got many names. It did not happen this year, because both of us (!) are recovering from knee injuries, but next year for sure.

3) I like mendieta's point--what's the overall goal here? My wife wants to learn a more parallel turn and how to carve for several reasons. First, to keep up with our 9 year old daughter, who is quickly advancing through the Swiss ski school program and is amazing. Second, to learn something knew, and "make piste skiing interesting again." Third, just to have more turns and skills in her library, and to feel more capable and confident whatever the terrain or conditions. And fourth, to improve her off piste skills. We have slowly learned that it is much more effective and efficient in many conditions backcountry skiing to keep your weight more equal between skis, and to ski with a more gentle parallel turn style.

Last, here's some rough video I shot of my wife. Despite the poor quality, you can see what I describe, especially starting at about 24 seconds. She slightly lifts up each inside ski at the apex of the turn. Bear in mind, this is a wide, gentle, piste, so these are really more side-to-side movements, and not true turns. When the terrain is steeper, and my wife is skiing somewhat faster, the style you see here is maintained, it's just a little more exaggerated (she has a more athletic stance, she lifts the inside ski more, etc.). Also, these are literally THE FIRST TURNS since my wife came back from tearing her ACL last year! To my mind, she looks pretty stable and solid considering how hard it is to come back! When she is skiing "normally" her style is more confident and smooth.


Thanks again for all the input.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

Yup, that's rotary push-off. It's sort of the anti-carve. You know when people on here say you'd have to start from ground zero and rebuild everything? Yeah... carving would be a big change.

 

[Steve]

What I see as the most significant issue that should be addressed first is that her turns start with a strong turning of the shoulders and upper body. In order to learn to ski well she should focus on turning her legs. Turning her femurs in the hip sockets. Practice in front of a mirror, spend a lot of time developing awareness for what rotation of the leg feels like while the pelvis doesn't rotate. As long as movements come from the top it is going to be very hard to develop other skills.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Rotary Push-Off turn.

 

[AmyPJ]

As someone who learned a stem christie on straight skis and is still trying to get rid of the remnants, "just roll them on edge and let them carve" can be a lot easier said than done.

Oh, AMEN to that! Are we Stem Sisters?! Mine is FINALLY diminishing. For me, the cue that has been working is the bicycle visual. Shorten the outside leg like I am pedaling up on a bike. It has the same effect (I THINK) as tipping the knee (right knee turn right, that stuff.) But for whatever reason, where I am in the progression, it works better. It also really keeps the shoulders in the correct position (not as big an issue for me) allowing the legs to work beneath me.

 

[Steve]

Amy, yes that's key. But remember that you are using 3 joints when you shorten (and lengthen) a leg. The obvious one to most people is the knee, which shortens the leg, but moves the body backwards. The ankles are constantly talked about, flex them and you move forward. Don't forget about the hip joint. As the knee flexes moving the COM back, the hips flex moving the COM forward (along with the ankles.)

Get that feeling (like my icon) of articulating all the joints together and you'll find yourself moving more forward in the balance zone and loving it!

 

[AmyPJ]

Amy, yes that's key. But remember that you are using 3 joints when you shorten (and lengthen) a leg. The obvious one to most people is the knee, which shortens the leg, but moves the body backwards. The ankles are constantly talked about, flex them and you move forward. Don't forget about the hip joint. As the knee flexes moving the COM back, the hips flex moving the COM forward (along with the ankles.)

Get that feeling (like my icon) of articulating all the joints together and you'll find yourself moving more forward in the balance zone and loving it!

Yes, thankfully I can REALLY feel it when I'm aft, and immediately tell myself to "stand up!" It's such a long process, and my progression is to slowly integrate all of the cues I've been given (right knee turn right, tip the knee and turn, pivot slips, etc.) The knee is NEVER a cue other than to tip it. Man friend loathes the "bend the knee" cue.

I got Boot Doc foamed tongues 3 weeks ago, and they have had miraculous effects. Suddenly, the skis are responding much faster.