Help me decide, wider all-mountain or powder ski? ON3P

[David Chaus]

I’m in the market to expand my quiver...but not all at once. So, wider all mountain that can work in powder, or a powder ski?
I’ve got my eyes on ON3P Woodsman 108, probably in 182 and ON3P Billy Goat (116) in 184.

I’m 5-10”, maybe 150lbs, part time instructor. I like to think I’m advanced, but I’m still working towards PSIA L2. I ski at Stevens Pass and Crystal Mt (PNW maritime snow). I am fine with whatever conditions are present, enjoy bumps and off-piste more than strictly groomers.

I acquired my Renoun Z 90’s last year, and they became my one-ski quiver, and I love them as a teaching ski. I didn’t use my Head Rev 85’s at all and took my Rev 105’s out for one run last season before realizing the Renouns were better, even in 5” of new snow, especially on top of refrozen crud. So I’ve pretty much skied them everywhere.

That said, they’re not ideal for powder, and I’d like a ski with a tail that releases easier for mixed conditions.

I’m focused on the ON3P skis because when I’ve demoed, they were my favorite skis for PNW off-piste conditions. I was actually leaning towards the Billy Goat, because I’ve taken them in the crud and bumps and they were pretty freaking amazing. I could see them as a wider ski in a 2-quiver, along with the Z90’s.

And then, gosh darn it, ON3P now has the Woodsman, which they are calling “all-mountain,” kind of between the directional charger Wrenegade and the more playful/jibby/center-mounted Jeffrey (formerly Kartel). I’ve demoed both of those, and could easily own either one, but still prefered the Billy Goat. I haven’t demoed the Woodsman and am not sure when I woudl be able to to.

I’ve read and re-read Blister reviews, even posted on their Woodsman 108 review and got a great reply from Jonathan Ellsworth:

“Couple thoughts:

I generally believe pretty strongly that if there's a ski out there that you have been on and that you already know you really click with ... get that exact ski. That said...

I think it really comes down to how many big pow days you will realistically be getting. For me, the Z90 is primarily a groomer ski (and a very very good one). So I would opt for a 2-ski quiver of the Z90 and the Woodsman 108, and I'd be out on the Woodsman 108 every day that I wasn't just ripping groomers.

But if you are comfortable on the Z90 as more of an all-mountain ski ... then the question is how many pow days -- and big pow days -- you expect to get. There's no question that the Billy Goat will handle deep snow better than the Woodsman 108, and be more fun. But that difference will get more noticeable the deeper things get -- in 6" either will be fine. In 12", it will depend if you like a looser tail (Billy Goat). In 18", the Woodsman will still be fine, I think, but we're now in the territory where the Billy Goat will offer that surfier ride. And the more you tend to see 24"+ pow days, the more I'd want to have a Billy Goat in my quiver.

Does that all make sense?”

Emailing with ON3P gets me similar feedback:

“Re: Woodsman vs BG - the discussion is essentially versatility vs soft snow.

If you want a soft snow specific ski, the BG is the way to go - especially for skiing powder days in WA. But it would be a soft day specific ski - and you would want to be on the Z90 in an everyday capacity.

If you want some improved hard snow performance and edge hold, while keeping good float, the Woodsman 108 is going to be the ski i would lean towards as a do it all PNW ski.

Vs the older Wren that you tried - do you know what year? If one of the newer ones (with increased rocker) the flex is going to be comparable, but the radius, balance, and rocker of the Woodsman adds an element of playfulness the Wrens just didn't have, so they are a lot more fun when you are not driving down the fall line.

With the Z90, I think you can skip the Woodsman 96. Too much overlap.

So I would lean Woodsman 108 for a real PNW everyday ski, or Billy Goat for a soft day/powder ski.

Hope that helps.”

So, Pugski brain trust, the issue is really how many deep days I expect to get. I can’t really count on seeing that many 24”+ pow days, so maybe the Woodsman makes more sense. But, as Jonathan notes, if you’ve been on a ski that I know I click with, get that ski.

Let’s assume for the moment I won’t just “get both.” That’d be nice, but these skis are not cheap, whereas I am. Kinda.

So, it’s kind of typical Pugski question: Is a 108 that is more versatile and can handle powder a better options vs a powder ski that I know can be pretty versatile, when I’ve got a front-side oriented ski that I’ve pretty used everywhere (because I’m that good)?

What are your experiences with this type of dilemna and what if anything would you do differently?

thanks

 

[peterm]

I vote Billy Goat. Sounds like it's the one that's going to make those memorable days even more memorable.

 

[Analisa]

I've been over-the-moon pleased with a 108 as a W. WA daily driver. That being said, I'm 5-2, and I don't have a skinny ski option.

I'd go goats. They really nail the construction to match the classic PNW morning pow/afternoon concrete conditions. You know you like them, and know you like them more than either ski that informed the Woodsman. The rocker profile, sidecut, and asymmetrical tip taper are pretty unique to the Billy Goats, if you're looking for some sort of skinny goat.

They tout the Woodsman as an all mountain ski. Based on how you've been using the Z-90, you already own one. 116 is far from impractical in the PNW. The one place I could see swapping to the Woodsman is if you find the goats to be work in the trees & tight spots.

 

[jmeb]

The 108 doesn't have the RES tip -- which IMHO is what makes the Billy Goat so magical in 3D (and especially crappy 3D) snow. I say go Goat.

 

[BC.]

Where u live/ski?.....Goat...the ski is exactly designed for what u are looking for.

 

[GregK]

Another BG recommendation!

You already have a great all mountain ski that punches above it’s weight in soft snow as you saw when comparing to the Rev 105.

Think you are getting to fixated on the “24 of new snow” thing. What were the conditions when you tried the BG and loved them?
You will have fun on them with ANY snowfall as they will handle fresh or tracked out powder better than your Renoun or a 108 ski would.

I’d use the Renoun skis for days with no new snow and the BG whenever it snows. I’m in the East Coast and love my 116mm skis in any new snow and they are a blast for Spring skiing.

 

[David Chaus]

Another BG recommendation!

What were the conditions when you tried the BG and loved them?
You will have fun on them with ANY snowfall as they will handle fresh or tracked out powder better than your Renoun or a 108 ski would.
.

Well, both demo days weren’t powder days, actually mixed conditions, cut up crud, spring bumps, groomers, crud, crud and more crud.
All good.

Good feedback everyone, thanks.

 

[GregK]

Well, both demo days weren’t powder days, actually mixed conditions, cut up crud, spring bumps, groomers, crud, crud and more crud.
All good.

Good feedback everyone, thanks.

There you go! You had fun on them even without a big snowfall. Send us a pics of your new BG when you get them.

 

[Tricia]

At your size I'm not sure I'd go much over the 106.

 

[AngryAnalyst]

Bigger skiers than you (myself included) would always opt for the Billy Goat. I suspect that if you found the Head didn't offer enough float the Woodsman probably wouldn't either.

 

[David Chaus]

Well, the issue with the Rev 105 isn’t so much the width (the tip is 144), is the sidecut and tail. It’s got a 16m turning radius and minimal tip rise and a tail that wants to finish a turn, so it ends up being harder to release in crud and soft snow that I now want, and it doesn’t really plane up in powder. It’s a wider all-mountain ski, and a great carver for it’s width, but it doesn’t float anywhere like a powder ski.

@Tricia I hear you about not needing a wider ski for my size. I’d be plenty happy with a 105-108 powder ski. That’s exactly why I’ve been considering the powder capabilities of the Woodsman. Nonetheless I’ve been amazed and pleased at how versatile and easy the Billy Goat was to ski, even at 116 wide. First time I tried the BG, the 184/189 seemed like a tank to me and the179 was like dancing down the slope. A couple years later, they had changed the tip a bit and the 184 danced for me, though I could still see getting the 179.

The rocker profile, sidecut, and asymmetrical tip taper are pretty unique to the Billy Goats, if you're looking for some sort of skinny goat.

A skinny goat, I like that. Well put. Yup, that was my Pegacorn (mashup of Pegasus and Unicorn). With Unobtanium, Vibranium, and HDT.

 

[jmeb]

Someone needs to link @Philpug 's old article about "waist width isn't everything." The shape and rocker differences are much more the difference here than 108mm vs 116mm. Maybe your weight doesn't need a 116mm ski most the time, but at your height, getting that ski on edge shouldn't be that difficult. Might sing a different tune if you were 5'4".

If you're only planning on skiing these skis when it is fresh snow or deep leftovers -- and your plan is to mostly be skiing off-piste -- the BG shape is focused on that. The woodsman gives up some of that for versatility on harder snow.

 

[ski otter 2]

I'm the same height and weight as you, 150 lbs. and 5"10". (I like to charge, but not always.)
Since I've never tried the Woodsman 108, I can't really say. I sure like the BG though.

Since you like and could own both the 10x Wren and Jeffrey, it seems like you can't lose here: both the 108 and 116 skis would add to your quiver in a great way.

But for best results this means assuming that the Woodsman, which you haven't yet tried, turns out to be dialed in for you. I'd sure feel better about this choice if you could try it.

As far as which to get first, it might depend on what sort of season we get:
Here in Colo. we had a lot of 6" to 24" heavy snow days last season, and I found myself wishing for the BG (which I've demoed almost every year and love).
You've got the hard snow/old snow/groomer snow ski already, and that's the relative weakness of the BG. So a great pairing.

The season before, we got a lot of under-performing days, when forecast depths on powder days fell short to way short: lots of 2" to 5" days, light not heavy snow.
On such days I found myself wanting a 105 to 108 ski, and got the K2 Pinnacle 105 for here in Colo. For PNW, since the snow is routinely heavier, the ON3P Woodsman 108 might well be dialed in (though I've only tried the 108 Wren and Kartel, neither of which were favs for me here in Colorado - I've preferred the BG and both the older 110 & 114 Jeffreys by a lot).

One thing, though: in less deep snow, I prefer a ski that can both float/slarve and carve, right on through the snow on such under-performing days. How about you?
Can the Woodsman do both things in ways you like?

So I'll vote a bird in the hand over one in the bush: BG. If you get to demo before buying, then maybe this problem choice will solve itself.

 

[David Chaus]

Hmmm...before I started this thread, I had been thinking Woodsman 108. The input I’ve received has allowed me to reconsider. The advantage of the BG is it would be an easier decision of what to use on a given day.

Of course, I can keep evaluating if I really need something in between the Z90 and a BG. Because I’m not opposed to saving some shekels and buying a middle quiver ski later.

 

[jmeb]

If you buy a W108, I think you'll be wondering "what if" on big days.

Do you want to say what if on the special days, or what if on the middling days?

 

[jmeb]

Also, you'll be the cool instructor who sends it on billy goats on their off days.

 

[Brian Finch]

Hmmm...before I started this thread, I had been thinking Woodsman 108. The input I’ve received has allowed me to reconsider. The advantage of the BG is it would be an easier decision of what to use on a given day.

Of course, I can keep evaluating if I really need something in between the Z90 and a BG. Because I’m not opposed to saving some shekels and buying a middle quiver ski later.

Better question, what bindings? Stack height matters at your weight.

 

[David Chaus]

Better question, what bindings? Stack height matters at your weight.

Good question. I’m planning on Attack 13 demo’s. That’s what I mounted on my Z90’s, with the idea of being able to save weight and space in a double ski bag and bring 3 pair (GF’s pair and my quiver of two), or to more easily schlep both pair of skis from the parking lot to the slopes and switch off as desired. Plus I can play with mount points if needed. It’s also come in handy when someone wants to try my Z90’s (and I suppose, BG’s or whatever I end up with).

And again, with the BG I’ll consider the 179 vs the 184. With Woodsman it’s 177 or 182.

 

[Marty McSly]

A skinny goat, I like that. Well put. Yup, that was my Pegacorn (mashup of Pegasus and Unicorn). With Unobtanium, Vibranium, and HDT.

Exactly the right ski for MacGregor the bar builder.

 

[Alexzn]

Gee, here is a typical PugSki customer agonizing over a decision of which ski number X to get... you got answers from Blister AND the company. AND ON3P makes the skis in the region where you ski... .

Point one, quiver overlap. Today’s skis are so good that you can ski any of them on any day. So try not to overlap too much. Point 2, consider marketing, companies need to sell more skis, so they are coming with new skis that are “ ideal” for a given set of conditions, slicing and dicing their line. Almost no new ski offers a significant benefit over an "old" ski n the lineup, unless it is a totally new line. Point 3, instead of agonizing over skis, I would rethink the binding strategy. Attack demos are great for a demo binding, and the keyword is demo. On a powder ski every ounce of weight near your feet is loss of enjoyment and no contribution to stability. And the idea of swapping demo binding on skis during the day is a pipe dream. On a good day you don’t have time to go down to swap. I regularly bring two pairs and I only swap when I use a race pair in the morning to run gates (badly by the way, but that’s still fun). And I cannot think of a day good for a powder ski in the morning and then calling for a Z90 in the afternoon. And I prefer any regular binding over any demo any day. Point 4, you are in the Pacific Northwest, you surf over the snow, not in the snow like they do in Colorado or Utah, so wider will always be better.