Help me correct A-Frame

[Wendy]

Wendy I've been following this thread and didn't want to post until now, but I want to reiterate what skier said. Although perfect alignment is helpful and important, it is the icing on the cake. Believe me I've been getting alignment done for many years with many of the top bootfitters in the country. The major flaws in my skiing were never corrected by it. Technique trumps alignment. I have scoliosis, a pelvic tilt, for years thought I had a leg length discrepancy, pronation, you name it.

It took years of training and focused practice to correct the problems I'd hoped that equipment and adjustments could correct.

It's OK to blame your equipment, but at the end of the day it's about movements.

Steve,

Thanks for your insight. I hope readers don’t think I am blaming my equipment. I know there’s no special ski or boot (outside of a well fitted boot) that will help correct this. I too have a pelvic tilt (partially corrected by core work) as well as curved tibia (a birth defect...genu recurvatum) that causes my knee joints to wear down asymmetrically, and my legs to appear bow legged when they’re not. That said, I’ve been examined by bootfitter Jim Lindsay, who has fitted World Cup racers, who says my body geometry is not dissimilar to racers he’s fitted. So, those things might make it a bit harder for me to improve, but not impossible.

I had no idea I was using my inside ski as an “outrigger.” Now, I have something to focus on when the season starts next year.

What’s interesting (and frustrating) is that no local (to me) instructors have pointed out any of the items discussed in the above posts when I’ve skied with them.

I am mostly a weekend skier (due to job responsibilities). So, I need to find a way to do drills and technique work while still having fun skiing varied terrain in a short amount of time.

You guys will see some video next season to comment on.

 

[skier]

I think the Weinbrecht video is really interesting. It raises the question, this is for you Wendy, what do you want from your skiing?

I remember the PR around that workshop (I'm local) - it was advertised as for women seeking more confidence on skis through technique.

A few observations - Donna's a bump skier and what you see there is bump skiing on flat terrain in minimally skied up slushy snow. It's a really narrowly-defined style. None of them are going faster than about 10 mph - it's slow. Don't get me wrong, for speed control and confidence, what you see there is a solid recommendation of technique; however, Donna's completely upright and her boots are glued to each other all the time. So to your request of this thread, of course she's not going to display any a-frame - it's impossible to a-frame with your feet locked together. For that style, she looks great from the front or back, but when you get a side view, you can see her weight center is aft - in the back seat. It's old school zipper-line mogul skiing in slow-mo but on a flat slope. That's fine, that's what she does, and she's brilliant at it, no doubt.

One highlight in the side view, despite the aft weight center, is the subtle extension of outside leg and flexion of inside leg with simultaneous uphill ski lead, or, if you will, outside ski extension aft, take your pick. Either way, as others here have pointed out, that's positive and dynamic. Notice also her hand and arm position - though they could be lower, that's good all the time, especially the outside hand coming in toward the center line of the body with the turn: the steering hand.

To the overall mechanics of the style however, because she's completely vertical, there's virtually no dynamic of edge angles/ski flexion happening. She's using the aft weight center to slide the tails of the skis across the snow in a developing curve. That generates friction and acts as a break to control speed - confidence inspiring for sure, especially for skiers with issues related to balance and speed. To be fair, at that pace, it's really difficult to get a ski to de-camber and cut an arc ("carve"); in fact, if you did, you'd probably need to use an a-frame to manufacture the angle and edge pressure needed to bend the ski (that's one time it's really useful). The problem with her technique is that at higher speeds and more intense conditions, the more friction you produce between edges and snow, the faster your large muscle groups will burn out. Steering a cleanly arcing ski and using the physics modern equipment put at your disposal is way more efficient, and simply joyful - pleasure, not work. So if you aren't afraid of even moderate speed and want greater satisfaction from you ski experience, Donna's model may not be your best choice.

It's not necessary for Wendy to adopt Donna's style. That's not the point. The point is to demonstrate initiating a turn with just the lower body and letting the skis do all the work. This type of mogul skier is a great way to see that motion isolated, because there aren't any other extraneous movements. This probably shouldn't turn into a mogul thread, but I've noticed in general over the years that mogul style is poorly understood. The core of a good turn is in Donna's skiing as well as other styles. She's carving some sweet turns, but it's actually done with more forward pressure not less. Other differences include a narrow stance, little hip angulation, and an upright posture. These style differences are more suited for the bumps and less suited for gates, however the core foundation is very similar with weight shifting, angulation, and carving. Once you can initiate a turn like that, then you can widen your stance width, separate your knees, add in more hip angulation, apply less forward pressure, turn wider, hunch over, hold out your arms like you're pretending to be a gorilla airplane, and you'll be very similar to some other styles. Her goal is to go fast in the moguls, not fast on the groomed. However, there really isn't anything limiting her speed on the groomed either. Less forward pressure and not turning as sharply are all that's needed, and it doesn't take any extra energy. With the exception of running gates, mogul style is very versatile around the mountain. If speed is your biggest concern, I guarantee that she can keep up with you on the groomed, at least until someone pulls your pass. But, I'll also guarantee that you've got no chance of keeping up with her in the bumps.

 

[Wendy]

It's not necessary for Wendy to adopt Donna's style. That's not the point. The point is to demonstrate initiating a turn with just the lower body and letting the skis do all the work. This type of mogul skier is a great way to see that motion isolated, because there aren't any other extraneous movements. This probably shouldn't turn into a mogul thread, but I've noticed in general over the years that mogul style is poorly understood. The core of a good turn is in Donna's skiing as well as other styles. She's carving some sweet turns, but it's actually done with more forward pressure not less. Other differences include a narrow stance, little hip angulation, and an upright posture. These style differences are more suited for the bumps and less suited for gates, however the core foundation is very similar with weight shifting, angulation, and carving. Once you can initiate a turn like that, then you can widen your stance width, separate your knees, add in more hip angulation, apply less forward pressure, turn wider, hunch over, hold out your arms like you're pretending to be a gorilla airplane, and you'll be very similar to some other styles. Her goal is to go fast in the moguls, not fast on the groomed. However, there really isn't anything limiting her speed on the groomed either. Less forward pressure and not turning as sharply are all that's needed, and it doesn't take any extra energy. With the exception of running gates, mogul style is very versatile around the mountain. If speed is your biggest concern, I guarantee that she can keep up with you on the groomed, at least until someone pulls your pass. But, I'll also guarantee that you've got no chance of keeping up with her in the bumps.

I *know* I need to initiate turns with my lower body and keep my upper body quiet (interestingly, that is the key to good cycling....I was always told by my cycling coaches that I was great at that)...but obviously this is still a problem for me in skiing.

I do recall instructors telling me to “ move out over my skis” or “ move with my skis” which, intuitively, for me, results in more upper body motion. So I don’t know how reconcile that, either.

 

[Steve]

Steve,

Thanks for your insight. I hope readers don’t think I am blaming my equipment.

Hey Wendy, that's just a saying, and I love to blame my equipment. Why do you think people keep buying new skis as intermediates? It's because of the hope that it will make them ski better!

I don't think anyone thinks you're trying to blame things on your alignment (equipment) you're doing what we all do, trying to fix as many things as possible.

As to why haven't instructors pointed these things out? Ha! Same thing has happened to me, when I finally found the fatal flaw(s) in my skiing (mostly on my own with the help of video) I wondered the same thing. First off a great eye is not common amongst instructors, and secondly, video - and slow motion (or stop frame) makes it much easier to see things. Speed hides flaws. Skiing slowly is harder than skiing fast (cleanly that is.)

Ski a lot. Ski slowly. Ski on easy terrain trying to make the transition from one turn to the next as smooth as possible. Ski under a lift first thing in the morning and try to get back up on the lift fast enough to look at your tracks. It's a long journey. Took me more than 20 years to clean up my skiing (I started as an adult.)

 

[Monster]

"But, I'll also guarantee that you've got no chance of keeping up with her in the bumps." - absolutely true, and my knees and hips are cool with that.

"I guarantee that she can keep up with you on the groomed, at least until someone pulls your pass." - this I doubt very much.

"The core of a good turn is in Donna's skiing as well as other styles." - true.

"She's carving some sweet turns, but it's actually done with more forward pressure not less." - completely disagree. There is zero carving whatsoever in her turns in the clip. She puts very little pressure on the fronts of her skis - after the gentle up-unweight, the initiation is all done with her aft-center, effectively her butt, transferring dropping weight down through her heels to the tails of her skis, which because they're only slightly angulated, slide laterally to her direction of travel. It's sit-back skid skiing. Nothing wrong with that if it serves in the moment.

View media item 2652
. . ."however the core foundation is very similar with weight shifting, angulation, and carving." - 1 yes, 2 (there's very little) and 3 no.

"Once you can initiate a turn like that, then you can widen your stance width, separate your knees, add in more hip angulation, apply less forward pressure" - no; that last bit is exactly backwards. It becomes about increased forward pressure.

. . ."hold out your arms like you're pretending to be a gorilla airplane" - sorry; this is the worst thing ever for good hand/arm position. I see so many semi-carvers doing it, I think it must be actually taught somewhere. It freezes important sets of muscles in the upper torso and arms in such a way that kills any possibility of independent, dynamic arm/hand use, and inhibits spinal and lower body flexibility in the process.

I didn't say it was bad skiing, it's not. She's an elegant, highly balanced skier. It's just what it is. There are lots of ways to ski, and some differ in fundamental ways.

I might have been wrong about a-framing with that style:

View media item 2653

 

[Monster]

"I hope readers don’t think I am blaming my equipment.".

Gear can't give you technique but it sure can limit it and/or open up new possibilities if it was in the way and you get it sorted.

 

[Steve]

I *know* I need to initiate turns with my lower body and keep my upper body quiet (interestingly, that is the key to good cycling....I was always told by my cycling coaches that I was great at that)...but obviously this is still a problem for me in skiing.

I do recall instructors telling me to “ move out over my skis” or “ move with my skis” which, intuitively, for me, results in more upper body motion. So I don’t know how reconcile that, either.

Yeah, word salad sometimes. I've always found the "quiet upper body" part hard to put into action. Hmm. Action. How do you keep something from moving after all? What started developing that elusive quiet upper body for me was moving my lower body. Turning my legs. Separating the lower body. Once I started turning my legs (or allowing them to turn independently) the upper body suddenly was quiet. To me there's even a component of actively keeping the upper body passive (how's that for a paradox?)

 

[skier]

I *know* I need to initiate turns with my lower body and keep my upper body quiet (interestingly, that is the key to good cycling....I was always told by my cycling coaches that I was great at that)...but obviously this is still a problem for me in skiing.

I do recall instructors telling me to “ move out over my skis” or “ move with my skis” which, intuitively, for me, results in more upper body motion. So I don’t know how reconcile that, either.

It seems like keeping a quiet upper body is such an easy thing to do, but if you challenge some people to do it, you'll find that they can't. At first I couldn't understand why it's so hard for them. Then finally I figured out that if they keep their upper body still, they can't turn, because the twist is how they turn.

Sometimes it can be very hard to twist a ski. My answer was to carve, and I learned to carve. But there's another path that leads to an intermediate plateau, and that's the upper body twist. I never developed that pattern, so I couldn't understand it at first. But, I figured out that if you stand up, bend over, and twist, you can apply tremendous torque to twist your feet. Now go watch lots of intermediate skiers, and you'll see that pattern is the way most of them turn. They actually can become quite proficient with it, and it seems very difficult to break. You just have a touch of it, kind of a mix.

I think this twisting method relies allot on having weight on both skis. For example, if you stand up and twist while standing on both feet you'll find it's a completely different ballgame than trying to twist while standing on one foot. The only way to twist while standing on one foot is to first get some momentum going (unless the floor is super slippery), whereas on two feet you can slowly and powerfully twist your feet. Therefore, just learning to ski on one ski should go a long way to develop a turning method that is carving and not twisting.

 

[skier]

"She's carving some sweet turns, but it's actually done with more forward pressure not less." - completely disagree. There is zero carving whatsoever in her turns in the clip. She puts very little pressure on the fronts of her skis - after the gentle up-unweight, the initiation is all done with her aft-center, effectively her butt, transferring dropping weight down through her heels to the tails of her skis, which because they're only slightly angulated, slide laterally to her direction of travel. It's sit-back skid skiing. Nothing wrong with that if it serves in the moment.

Way off. I completely disagree. Sometimes there's a little washout from the cuff pressure she applies which is good for controlling speed in the moguls, but other than that it's sweet carving. She's shifting weight, applying cuff pressure to the outside ski, using knee angulation, and letting the ski do everything else. It's as simple as that. If you're really curious, try to duplicate what you think she's doing, then film it, and when you see it looks nothing like what she's actually doing, you'll figure it out.

I've spent lots of time duplicating turns like that. I know exactly what it takes. It's clear you've never made a turn like that in your life, but yet you think you know more about it than people who have been practicing those turns for more than a decade. I'll tell you that's a frustrating experience to find in a forum, which is probably why I sound a bit annoyed, but I suppose posts like that are inevitable.

 

[Tim Hodgson]

Sometimes it can be very hard to twist a ski. My answer was to carve, and I learned to carve. But there's another path that leads to an intermediate plateau, and that's the upper body twist. I never developed that pattern, so I couldn't understand it at first. But, I figured out that if you stand up, bend over, and twist, you can apply tremendous torque to twist your feet. ...

I think this twisting method relies allot on having weight on both skis. For example, if you stand up and twist while standing on both feet you'll find it's a completely different ballgame than trying to twist while standing on one foot. The only way to twist while standing on one foot is to first get some momentum going (unless the floor is super slippery), whereas on two feet you can slowly and powerfully twist your feet. Therefore, just learning to ski on one ski should go a long way to develop a turning method that is carving and not twisting.

This is what I think I see in the up-unweighting total body extension part of Donna W.'s turns. Then she flexes her knees and drives her skis in an arc a little more on edge (not really "carving" per se) during the flexed/bottom of the turn. To lead to the next body extension with equal ski pressure sliding (but arcing) sideways to move the skis from one side then under her torso to the other side "laterally."

I see equal weighting on both skis during the extension part of her turn. No longer leg/shorter leg. Like Magi said how much long leg short leg can you really do when your body is that vertical and your thighs, hands, knees are touching and even your boots are almost touching? (That's one way to cure an A-frame, keep all body lower parts touching...)

Personally, I am going to adopt Donna W.'s stance and see how the skis ski for me.

I DO NOT KNOW WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT. I AM SEEING SOMETHING AND CHECKING FOR UNDERSTANDING !!!

But what then about this?

Way off. I completely disagree. Sometimes there's a little washout from the cuff pressure she applies which is good for controlling speed in the moguls, but other than that it's sweet carving. She's shifting weight, applying cuff pressure to the outside ski, using knee angulation, and letting the ski do everything else. It's as simple as that. If you're really curious, try to duplicate what you think she's doing, then film it, and when you see it looks nothing like what she's actually doing, you'll figure it out.

I've spent lots of time duplicating turns like that. I know exactly what it takes. It's clear you've never made a turn like that in your life, but yet you think you know more about it than people who have been practicing those turns for more than a decade. I'll tell you that's a frustrating experience to find in a forum, which is probably why I sound a bit annoyed, but I suppose posts like that are inevitable.

skier, are you saying that Donna W. is doing a foot to foot weight shift like this guy, but just wayyyyyy more suble?


Because if Donna W. is employing Johnny M.'s type of foot to foot weight shifting but in a more subtle manner, then Donna W.'s subtlety is wayyyyyy beyond my Level II Movement Analysis skills (would not surprise me in the least) and way beyond my ability or athleticism to achieve.

 

[dbostedo]

There is zero carving whatsoever in her turns in the clip. She puts very little pressure on the fronts of her skis - after the gentle up-unweight, the initiation is all done with her aft-center, effectively her butt, transferring dropping weight down through her heels to the tails of her skis, which because they're only slightly angulated, slide laterally to her direction of travel. It's sit-back skid skiing.

Way off. I completely disagree. Sometimes there's a little washout from the cuff pressure she applies which is good for controlling speed in the moguls, but other than that it's sweet carving.

I wonder if this is a case where folks have to define their terms. To some (most? all?), "carving" implies railroad tracks, tails perfectly following tips, and anything else is not carving. In the video, Donna does appear to (intentionally) skid/smear/slarve/etc., depending on what point in time you're talking about, but is not carving in the railroad track sense.

It sounds like @skier is calling that "carving", and @Monster is not... right?

 

[LiquidFeet]

 

[skier]

This is what I think I see in the up-unweighting total body extension part of Donna W.'s turns. Then she flexes her knees and drives her skis in an arc a little more on edge (not really "carving" per se) during the flexed/bottom of the turn. To lead to the next body extension with equal ski pressure sliding (but arcing) sideways to move the skis out laterally.

I see equal weighting on both skis during the extension part of her turn. No longer leg/shorter leg. Like Magi said how much long leg short leg can you really do when your body is that vertical and your thighs, hands, knees are touching and even your boots are almost touching? (That's one way to cure an A-frame, keep all body lower parts touching...)

Personally, I am going to adopt Donna W.'s stance and see how the skis ski for me.

I DO NOT KNOW WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT. I AM SEEING SOMETHING AND CHECKING FOR UNDERSTANDING !!!

But what then about this?



skier, are you saying that Donna W. is doing a foot to foot weight shift like this guy, but just wayyyyyy more suble?


Because if Donna W. is employing Johnny M.'s type of foot to foot weight shifting but in a more subtle manner, then Donna W.'s subtlety is wayyyyyy beyond my Level II Movement Analysis skills (would not surprise me in the least) and way beyond my ability or athleticism to achieve.

I've had instruction with Olympic comp mogul skiers, and Donna is skiing with their textbook instruction. There's no up-unweight. They don't teach that. Go to the Mogul Logic series on the web with Chuck Martin, look at his groomed run section, and she's doing exactly what he says to do. Maintain constant shin pressure, shifting at the top of the turn. Look at her boot tongues. See one compress at the top of the turn, then the other compresses at the top of the next turn. It may be the weight shifting is giving a false impression of up-unweighting, because she has to release the cuff pressure on one boot and apply it to the other boot. It's early weight shift, roll the knee and carve with forward pressure. I think sometimes people get hung up on seeing an exact replicate of the style du jour. There's a wide range of hand positions, posture, angulation, weight distribution, and stance width that can be done while carving. This gives a very wide range of styles that are all carving. All that's happening here is that those paramaters are far away from what many are used to seeing these days. What she's doing is so easy to do, because it's just weight shift with a subtle movement of the knee, but yet it's so hard to learn. I've seen people work for decades trying to do that turn, and they still don't have it. When she gets in the moguls in some situations she will carve much less. Certainly the top of the turn will be rotary, and often she will smear the bottom of the turn, but sometimes she will carve the bottom of the turn just like she is doing on the groomed.

 

[Magi]

...I had no idea I was using my inside ski as an “outrigger.” Now, I have something to focus on when the season starts next year.

What’s interesting (and frustrating) is that no local (to me) instructors have pointed out any of the items discussed in the above posts when I’ve skied with them.

I am mostly a weekend skier (due to job responsibilities). So, I need to find a way to do drills and technique work while still having fun skiing varied terrain in a short amount of time.

What makes "drills" not fun for you? My personal (and possibly incredibly weird take) is what's the difference between challenging yourself on a black trail, or by adding restrictions to challenge yourself on a blue or a green?

As one of my trainers says: "It's not L3 training till someone falls on green terrain". There are drills you can do going fast, on steep things, on flat things, in moguls, etc...

Happy to help with ideas on how to incorporate focuses and drills into your every day skiing if you want them.



Bottom line - If you want your skiing to change, you have to change how you ski.

 

[LiquidFeet]

^ What he said!

 

[LiquidFeet]

I took a mogul camp at Killington last spring with Donna.
Short Swing turns on groomers were a fundamental drill she put us through.
Those turns are definitely not carved.

 

[Uke]

Ahh, reminds me of those epic days of Nail and the Quick Carved Turn (QCT), which was also not a carved turn, but if I remember right did have a lot of forward pressure.

uke

ps anyone getting the reference in this post has been hanging around ski forums way to long/much.

 

[skier]

I wonder if this is a case where folks have to define their terms. To some (most? all?), "carving" implies railroad tracks, tails perfectly following tips, and anything else is not carving. In the video, Donna does appear to (intentionally) skid/smear/slarve/etc., depending on what point in time you're talking about, but is not carving in the railroad track sense.

It sounds like @skier is calling that "carving", and @Monster is not... right?

Good point. What I mean by carving is that the ski is providing the rotation rather than the skier rotating the ski.

I took a mogul camp at Killington last spring with Donna.
Short Swing turns on groomers were a fundamental drill she put us through.
Those turns are definitely not carved.

I'm sure there's no way to say this without offending. I'm sorry. Donna is carving. The ski is typically rotating (not in every turn) by it's geometry and design. She is not rotating the ski. I am not surprised that you were not carving. Very few people can duplicate her turns. Most people do not carve when they attempt those short radius turns with speed control. Her turns are miles beyond everyone elses. You'll have to go to Nelson Carmichael to see similar quality.

 

[Wendy]

What makes "drills" not fun for you? My personal (and possibly incredibly weird take) is what's the difference between challenging yourself on a black trail, or by adding restrictions to challenge yourself on a blue or a green?

As one of my trainers says: "It's not L3 training till someone falls on green terrain". There are drills you can do going fast, on steep things, on flat things, in moguls, etc...

Happy to help with ideas on how to incorporate focuses and drills into your every day skiing if you want them.



Bottom line - If you want your skiing to change, you have to change how you ski.

@Magi, I think my reaction to drills often had to do with instructors not explaining why I was doing said drill. If I know the reason, IOW, how it can achieve an outcome, then it is no longer a drill. When you and I skied together, I didn’t feel like we were doing “drills,” FWIW.

So yeah.....I’m open to all suggestions so I can make a list of things to practice. The Poconos have no shortage of green runs!

 

[Monster]

"I wonder if this is a case where folks have to define their terms. To some (most? all?), "carving" implies railroad tracks, tails perfectly following tips, and anything else is not carving. In the video, Donna does appear to (intentionally) skid/smear/slarve/etc., depending on what point in time you're talking about, but is not carving in the railroad track sense."

Yup, that's it, exactly.

Yes, it's semantics; however, I think, as you say, most skiers understand that a purely carving ski leaves a clean edge path in the snow, no wiping, no skidding, period, Nothing else is carving, it's something else; not bad, just different, and not carving.

If you call a turn where the ski edge doesn't have full connection with the snow and is slipping sideways "carving", then there's no such thing as carving or a cleanly arced ski, and you hopelessly cloud the terminology. Often, some parts of turns are carved and some are not, sometimes all are carved and all are slipped. When you can control at will when and where in a turn you slip and connect in any combination, then you are truly a skier. That's the skill that Stenmark displays.

Again - I'm not saying one thing is good and the other is bad, though one is certainly more satisfying (in fact, one of life's great pleasures); I'm saying A is A and B is B and it's not a good thing for discussing technique to muddle them up.

Oh, I knew Chuck as a kid - his big sister was my G/F in college