Help me correct A-Frame

[Zentune]

Wendy, that pronated left foot definitely shows up in your gym photos. Right one is a bit too, and it manifests in your skiing imo. This is partly caused by the poor hip (and glute) control as noted above. I’ll be incommunicado until next Friday, but if your interested, this will definitely help! A series of movement vids, based on movement we use in normal gait, exploring center, etc...these videos are available for a 1 time fee of around 15$ (US). They have helped me TREMENDOUSLY, I can’t say enough good things about them. Best part is you’ll have all summer to work on it

Click the link below, and scroll down a bit to the “wake your body up” link, you won’t be disappointed, and no I don’t get a commsion for this XD

P.s. Gary Ward is literally a genius!

https://www.findingcentre.co.uk/

zenny

 

[Mike King]

Wendy, a J turn starts with you headed down the fall line. You roll the ski on edge while maintaining the carve and continue turning until you are headed uphill (not just across the hill, but actually heading uphill). Initially, focus on the track left by the outside ski -- it should be a clean mark in the snow without any skidding.

Sure, I'd like to see video of your groomer skiing, but I'd be willing to bet that the same movement patterns are present in your groomer skiing.

Mike

 

[Magi]

@Mike KingThank you for your analysis.

I’d also like to get some video posted on groomed runs, with carving skis, to see if there’s any difference.

@Magi can you comment on anything you noticed while skiing with me at Alta? Thanks.

Mike's analysis is correct, and the movement pattern in that Video is the same thing I saw in your skiing at Alta (and will probably persist regardless of terrain or condition). It's a really common pattern and it works great (until it doesn't!) because it is a very powerful movement pattern. The limitation of the pattern is that its powerful because your core is a relatively large mass moving and therefore doesn't allow much precision/finesse that requires more effort. Moving the body before the feet also makes it much slower to respond to changes in terrain and desired direction.

So, in my belief, doing the smallest thing possible to get the same outcome is, all things equal, a better way to go. aka - Move your Feet, not your Meat.

You made progress on that at Alta.

With a better ability to direct pressure from ski to ski (primarily to the outside ski) you won't need to use your inside leg as an "in-rigger" for balance, and the A-frame will no longer be functional. I find that when movements stop supporting an outcome they sorta vanish...

That's what I was getting at in my original post with "Why do you need the a-frame" - the answer is that you need your inside leg to hold you up, or you'll fall over. Improve your ability to balance over and with the outside ski (aka be able to pick up the inside leg at any point in the turn) and you'll find your micro wedging and a-framing will improve/disappear because they won't be doing anything for you. More importantly - you'll ski longer, with less fatigue, on steeper stuff, in gnarlier terrain and less ideal conditions - because you'll get more performance for less effort.


Railroad Track turns to practice tipping below the pelvis.
Hockey Stops to practice turning the feet under a stable pelvis.
Skiing on one ski/foot to hone your lateral balance.



Sidebar for @Wendy You may see some of the same pattern in the photos of you standing statically (i.e. the hip moves outside/inside your knee (depending on the task) instead of your legs moving (rotating) under a stable pelvis). I'm curious how much more you can keep your ankle/knee/hip in a straight line/plane when attempting to demonstrate the same poses you took the photos of. When standing on one leg it looks like you push your knee in (toward the middle of your body) instead of out, which compromises your knee's ability to hold you up (in my knowledge of biomechanics). Generally, no one's telling you "pull your knees in" while attempting a heavy squat, think "good squat" form and that may help. When you're attempting to "roll to an edge" with both legs - move your Femur in the hip socket and let the knee/ankle follow that. The legs stays in a single "plane" in line with the knee that way and you have a stronger kinematic chain to support you. (aka you are less likely to hurt your knee).

 

[Wendy]

Wendy, that pronated left foot definitely shows up in your gym photos. Right one is a bit too, and it manifests in your skiing imo. This is partly caused by the poor hip (and glute) control as noted above. I’ll be incommunicado until next Friday, but if your interested, this will definitely help! A series of movement vids, based on movement we use in normal gait, exploring center, etc...these videos are available for a 1 time fee of around 15$ (US). They have helped me TREMENDOUSLY, I can’t say enough good things about them. Best part is you’ll have all summer to work on it

Click the link below, and scroll down a bit to the “wake your body up” link, you won’t be disappointed, and no I don’t get a commsion for this XD

P.s. Gary Ward is literally a genius!

https://www.findingcentre.co.uk/

zenny

This is definitely worth a try, for many reasons...and not all related to skiing! Thank you.

 

[skier]

Wendy, it seems to me that someone could get the impression from this thread that core strength and body perfection are necessary to make a good turn. I don't think that's true, and it's perhaps a limiting way of thinking, because someone might come to the conclusion that they just don't have the right fitness or body type, and therefore there's no use focusing on technique. Your body is fine, and you look plenty fit to me to be able to make better turns. On the terrain in the posted video and with the type of turn radius you were doing it doesn't take great fitness, core strength, range of motion, or perfect alignment to get rid of the A-frame. Sure, those things will come into play more when trying to get extreme edge angles or deep absorption in the moguls, but a basically good turn is good, because it's so efficient and easy.

Below is a video of Donna Weinbrecht skiing similar terrain as you with a similar turning radius at 0:08 and 9:27. If you compare her skiing to others you'll see that most people add in all sorts of unnecessary motions. The most common is initiating the turn with the upper body which provides torque to twist the skis. All Donna is doing is applying pressure to the cuff with a little bit of knee angulation to tip the ski (including some passive steering by the ankles). It's subtle, effortless, easy, and most people could do it if they just knew exactly what to do. IMO, your A-frame is a result of not truly understanding and implementing the mechanics of this type of turn. If you look at your video at 0:16 you'll see your most pronounced A-frame. Maybe this moment was an anomaly, but with the help of weight on your inside ski and upper body motion you were able to twist your outside ski. This killed any generation of centrifugal force and you had no choice but to keep that inside ski underneath you with some weight on it. Instead, if you shift weight to your outside ski and tip it with knee angulation, the ski will carve around and you'll generate centrifugal force such that you can balance against the outside ski without needing the inside ski underneath you.

Like just about every other student I've ever seen, you have to start over practicing initiating the turn. Tip the ski with just your lower body, feel the ski arc and balance with centrifugal force. That statement is vague, because that's about the extent of agreement between people. How do you tip the ski? Some say tip with ankles, some say tip by knee angulation, some say shift all weight to the outside, some say shift some weight to the outside, some say tip the inside first…. I think one reason people twist the ski is because they are impatient. They feel like the ski isn't going to come around fast enough to control speed. If you want the ski to come around faster, then you can apply more tip pressure. This is done by putting more weight on your outside ski with shin pressure and knee angulation. It's the turning method of mogul skiers, and it's what Donna is doing. It may be a good way for you to break the A-frame. There's not much difference between this technique and what Ted Ligety does for example. He talks about lifting his inside ski and starting the turn with his knee; just, to get to large edge angles there's allot more that needs to be done such as inside leg retraction, hip angulation, different types of transitions....

 

[JESinstr]

I think one reason people twist the ski is because they are impatient. They feel like the ski isn't going to come around fast enough to control speed. If you want the ski to come around faster, then you can apply more tip pressure. This is done by putting more weight on your outside ski with shin pressure and knee angulation. It's the turning method of mogul skiers, and it's what Donna is doing. It may be a good way for you to break the A-frame. There's not much difference between this technique and what Ted Ligety does for example. He talks about lifting his inside ski and starting the turn with his knee; just, to get to large edge angles there's allot more that needs to be done such as inside leg retraction, hip angulation, different types of transitions....

What drives the impatience is that the skier is stuck in the old turn due to poor transition skills. The inside ski needs to be released at transition with a softening, then shortening of the inside leg. No more complicated than that. The shortening process frees the ski to tip and or rotate as the case may be.

Go to 8:00 in your video, set it to .25 slow mo. Now watch the next 3 skiers ending with Donna. Focus on the transitional activity of the inside leg. Lady #1 is hopelessly locked on her inside ski. Lady #2 is well on her way but is not quite there yet. Donna is like she is pedaling a bike....one leg gets long AS the other gets short.... totally in sync and in concert.

 

[skier]

The inside ski needs to be released at transition with a softening, then shortening of the inside leg. No more complicated than that.

Isn't this another way of saying to shift weight?

 

[T-Square]

Isn't this another way of saying to shift weight?

Not really. When you soften the outside leg there is a bit of movement In that direction, however, the majority of the movement comes from allowing the centrifugal forces the skier’s outside leg has been resisting to act and pull the skier in the new direction. Leg softening is a subtle move whereas weight shift requires more action to achieve.

 

[Magi]

Wendy, it seems to me that someone could get the impression from this thread that core strength and body perfection are necessary to make a good turn. I don't think that's true, and it's perhaps a limiting way of thinking, because someone might come to the conclusion that they just don't have the right fitness or body type, and therefore there's no use focusing on technique. Your body is fine, and you look plenty fit to me to be able to make better turns.

Very much want to emphasize this.

You don't need to be strong to do a hockey stop, railroad track turn, or low speed one footed turn. (I'd be curious to find someone capable of normal walking that isn't strong enough to do the needful in those cases).

I do find a direct correlation between the ability to do the above drills with accuracy and precision (and blend them) - and excellent skiing.

 

[Kneale Brownson]

Not really. When you soften the outside leg there is a bit of movement In that direction, however, the majority of the movement comes from allowing the centrifugal forces the skier’s outside leg has been resisting to act and pull the skier in the new direction. Leg softening is a subtle move whereas weight shift requires more action to achieve.

ALLOWING!!!!! My favorite term.

 

[JESinstr]

Isn't this another way of saying to shift weight?

To quote @T-Square , "Not Really". To me, the alignment (not shifting) of mass (weight) is a result not an action.

 

[skier]

To quote @T-Square , "Not Really". To me, the alignment (not shifting) of mass (weight) is a result not an action.

Sounds like you guys are thinking of shifting weight as sideways movement to align over a new ski. I think of shifting weight as first your weight is on one foot, then it's on the other. If at first you are skiing on your left ski then later you are skiing on your right ski, you have shifted weight from your left ski to your right ski. As one leg shortens and/or the other leg extends, the load is inevitably transferred from one leg to the other leg unless you are flying or falling. Mogul instructors like Donna just say shift weight, though it's accomplished by shortening and softening the inside ski. So, I think it's the same action just different language for different groups.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Here's a comparison of one turn by Wendy and one turn by Donna, with commentary.

 

[Tim Hodgson]

Dang, my MA must suck badly because if Donna is the instructor in the light blue coat, grey pants, black gloves and white helmet at 9:29 , I don't see a softening in the old-downhill ski edge with a shortening of new-to-be-inside leg at all (with what I would expect would follow with a corresponding CoM falling over to the inside of the new turn as the skis were extended (or carved) laterally to the other side).

What I see is a total body upward extension which actually lengthens the old-downhill new-to-be-inside leg which because the torso and both legs are extended both skis are now flat and she slides both of those flat skis under her torso to the other side.

You can really see it well at 9:40 where she extends her entire torso, opening up her knee joints extending both her legs and then guiding/sliding them under her laterally to the other side (spreading the peanut butter sideways).

Up and slide em sideways, down and carve them around, up and slide em the othersideways, down and carve them around...

(Dang that .25 speed slow-mo is cool!)

I can't ski like that, so I probably shouldn't talk. But I can see. (Sometimes, I think.) And that is what I see. Am I wrong?

 

[Magi]

Dang, my MA must suck badly because if Donna is the instructor in the light blue coat, grey pants, black gloves and white helmet at 9:29 , I don't see a softening in the old-downhill ski edge with a shortening of new-to-be-inside leg at all (with what I would expect would follow with a corresponding CoM falling over to the inside of the new turn as the skis were extended (or carved) laterally to the other side).

Donna does an up unweighting move with a slight upper body rotation in a couple of the shots of that video. I'm guessing she's doing it on purpose for a drill, because everything else I saw was textbook, really smooth, great technique. Generally you won't see a lot of long leg short leg in mogul skiing because the feet are so close together and the edge angle is pretty low.

I think the Montage @LiquidFeet is showing up top is incredibly illustrative. You can clearly see that Wendy is standing on her inside ski the entire time.

So @Wendy I'd advise one of the two following choices, depending on your intent:

Align your weight over your outside ski, and keep it there. The A-frame will pretty much disappear.
Your White Pass (inside ski turns) turns are getting there, and the next step is to actually lift your outside ski. ​

 

[JESinstr]

Dang, my MA must suck badly because if Donna is the instructor in the light blue coat, grey pants, black gloves and white helmet at 9:29 , I don't see a softening in the old-downhill ski edge with a shortening of new-to-be-inside leg at all (with what I would expect would follow with a corresponding CoM falling over to the inside of the new turn as the skis were extended (or carved) laterally to the other side).

I can't ski like that, so I probably shouldn't talk. But I can see. (Sometimes, I think.) And that is what I see. Am I wrong?

Please reference pic 3 and 5 in @LiquidFeet 's excellent MA above.

 

[skier]

Dang, my MA must suck badly because if Donna is the instructor in the light blue coat, grey pants, black gloves and white helmet at 9:29 , I don't see a softening in the old-downhill ski edge with a shortening of new-to-be-inside leg at all (with what I would expect would follow with a corresponding CoM falling over to the inside of the new turn as the skis were extended (or carved) laterally to the other side).

What I see is a total body upward extension which actually lengthens the old-downhill new-to-be-inside leg which because the torso and both legs are extended both skis are now flat and she slides both of those flat skis under her torso to the other side.

You can really see it well at 9:40 where she extends her entire torso, opening up her knee joints extending both her legs and then guiding/sliding them under her laterally to the other side (spreading the peanut butter sideways).

Up and slide em sideways, down and carve them around, up and slide em the othersideways, down and carve them around...

(Dang that .25 speed slow-mo is cool!)

I can't ski like that, so I probably shouldn't talk. But I can see. (Sometimes, I think.) And that is what I see. Am I wrong?

All she's doing is shifting weight at the top of the turn from cuff to cuff. You have to shorten one leg and extend another. How else could you shift weight with a narrow stance? Add in absorption and extension and you have mogul skiing. That terrain is in between groomed and moguls. Sometimes there are slight bumps where she does more extension and absorption. Sometimes there are mistakes since this is unedited video (She's making one run just like everyone else, and it's included). When the slope is perfectly flat, there's a shift to the uphill ski at the top of the turn that can allow for arcing, and she does. In the bumps, that's when absorption happens and the skis will always be rotated, because either the tip, tail, or the entire ski is off the surface.

 

[Wendy]

@LiquidFeet, that was incredibly instructive. Thank you for taking the time and effort to put that together.

 

[Steve]

Wendy I've been following this thread and didn't want to post until now, but I want to reiterate what skier said. Although perfect alignment is helpful and important, it is the icing on the cake. Believe me I've been getting alignment done for many years with many of the top bootfitters in the country. The major flaws in my skiing were never corrected by it. Technique trumps alignment. I have scoliosis, a pelvic tilt, for years thought I had a leg length discrepancy, pronation, you name it.

It took years of training and focused practice to correct the problems I'd hoped that equipment and adjustments could correct.

It's OK to blame your equipment, but at the end of the day it's about movements.

 

[Monster]

I think the Weinbrecht video is really interesting. It raises the question, this is for you Wendy, what do you want from your skiing?

I remember the PR around that workshop (I'm local) - it was advertised as for women seeking more confidence on skis through technique.

A few observations - Donna's a bump skier and what you see there is bump skiing on flat terrain in minimally skied up slushy snow. It's a really narrowly-defined style. None of them are going faster than about 10 mph - it's slow. Don't get me wrong, for speed control and confidence, what you see there is a solid recommendation of technique; however, Donna's completely upright and her boots are glued to each other all the time. So to your request of this thread, of course she's not going to display any a-frame - it's impossible to a-frame with your feet locked together. For that style, she looks great from the front or back, but when you get a side view, you can see her weight center is aft - in the back seat. It's old school zipper-line mogul skiing in slow-mo but on a flat slope. That's fine, that's what she does, and she's brilliant at it, no doubt.

One highlight in the side view, despite the aft weight center, is the subtle extension of outside leg and flexion of inside leg with simultaneous uphill ski lead, or, if you will, outside ski extension aft, take your pick. Either way, as others here have pointed out, that's positive and dynamic. Notice also her hand and arm position - though they could be lower, that's good all the time, especially the outside hand coming in toward the center line of the body with the turn: the steering hand.

To the overall mechanics of the style however, because she's completely vertical, there's virtually no dynamic of edge angles/ski flexion happening. She's using the aft weight center to slide the tails of the skis across the snow in a developing curve. That generates friction and acts as a break to control speed - confidence inspiring for sure, especially for skiers with issues related to balance and speed. To be fair, at that pace, it's really difficult to get a ski to de-camber and cut an arc ("carve"); in fact, if you did, you'd probably need to use an a-frame to manufacture the angle and edge pressure needed to bend the ski (that's one time it's really useful). The problem with her technique is that at higher speeds and more intense conditions, the more friction you produce between edges and snow, the faster your large muscle groups will burn out. Steering a cleanly arcing ski and using the physics modern equipment put at your disposal is way more efficient, and simply joyful - pleasure, not work. So if you aren't afraid of even moderate speed and want greater satisfaction from you ski experience, Donna's model may not be your best choice.

Perhaps one of the most pure techniques ever, including "modern" stivot and despite the period uphill ski lift (so '80s). You might see a few a-frames in this too: