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skier

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YUP!:golfclap:




IMO this is not a static vs dynamic argument. It is about how a skier needs to move laterally under gravity in order to properly engage and aligned their mass with the inside edge of the outside ski in preparation for the generation of centripetal (turning/circular) force . Gravity is the "force of record' at transition and at low velocity.

If you ask someone standing equally on two feet to put more weight (BTW weight is a term we should only use while working with gravity) on the right foot, there are various ways to accomplish this task. 1. You can focus on pushing on the left foot (extension) and/or leaning your upper mass over your right foot . This is how we walk/run except front to back vs side to side. 2. You can simply focus on lightening the left foot without losing contact with the ground.

Odds are that most will choose #1 because that is what they do every day. The lateral transfer of our weight (under gravity) using the #2 method is what we need to use in skiing. This especially needs to be taught and ingrained in never ever lessons using a narrow wedge.

Finally, regarding the term Centrifugal force.... I am not a Centrifugal force denier but I am a Centrifugal force understander. Simply put, the force we feel and call Centrifugal is our mass trying to return from circular travel to straight line travel. If we focus on reacting to that force the mechanics of bracing will prevail.

Yes, focusing on lightening the inside ski is great.... for some people.... for some types of turns. But, you know that if you listen to some top level racing coaches, you hear things like "push" on that platform. Also, if you do lighten a ski, at some point later it has to be "unlightened", so you have two equal and opposite necessary actions. You can focus on one or the other, but either way both have to happen and are equal to keep the cycle going. If you look at some high performance turns, where you go from extreme flexion to extreme extension, it's not going to happen without some focus on extending that leg.
 

Pequenita

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Interesting. I'll have to keep this in mind to try this upcoming season. I know when I'm in terrain or conditions I'm uncomfortable with I revert to old, bad habits. One of those being that I sometimes brace on that outside/downhill ski.

I brace like it's my job.
 

Seldomski

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@skier I agree with what you are saying in the prior few posts. For my personal skiing, I am using various mental cues to trick my body into doing the right thing. Trying to keep @Doby Man inside my brain would likely cause paralysis on the slopes. For now, getting the inside foot out of the way is what I think about to improve. Once that becomes automatic, no doubt I will need to shift to a different mental cue - likely:

raising the little toe of the outside ski

... will be the next step for me.
 

Doby Man

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@Steve Thanks, bro. Though, you are being much too generous. That dev was all you and it was a pleasure to witness. You have a lot of your own concepts that make a lot of sense as you put together your own technical model. "ART" is a great one. You should share your stuff on here more often. As an adult learner expert skier, you have more to offer many students than do I.

@JESinstr, please allow me to explain that a little further. It is my view that if edging is happening as a result of leg shortening, I then believe that edging JF is referring to is ski tipping. Ski tipping is edging but not all edging is ski tipping. What other kind of edging could he be referring to other than tipping in this case? Rotary? Skidding? Vertical motion? It does work the way he puts it and all I am saying is that, his point puts the kinetic focus/priority at leg shortening rather than tipping when he says one creates the other. Spiral learning teaches us to revolve our focus to evolve our focus. I think it is perfectly fine to revolve our focus from one place and concept to another but, evolving focus, in terms of the refinement of skilled tech freeskiing, I feel can go one way or another, up or down. Like Steve says, where do we hold the pen and why?

Regardless, JFB is such a great skier. His mechanics are as clean and smooth as they come.
 

JESinstr

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[USER=1777]@JESinstr
, please allow me to explain that a little further. It is my view that if edging is happening as a result of leg shortening, I then believe that edging JF is referring to is ski tipping. Ski tipping is edging but not all edging is ski tipping. What other kind of edging could he be referring to other than tipping in this case? Rotary? Skidding? Vertical motion? It does work the way he puts it and all I am saying is that, his point puts the kinetic focus/priority at leg shortening rather than tipping when he says one creates the other. Spiral learning teaches us to revolve our focus to evolve our focus. I think it is perfectly fine to revolve our focus from one place and concept to another but, evolving focus, in terms of the refinement of skilled tech freeskiing, I feel can go one way or another, up or down. Like Steve says, where do we hold the pen and why?

Regardless, JFB is such a great skier. His mechanics are as clean and smooth as they come.[/USER]

I can agree to that! I also agree wholeheartedly with the pencil analogy.

I understand, your points but I think you are missing mine. All I'm saying is that before you prescribe a movement, you need to acknowledge the force environment in which you are working. In the case of skiing and balance it is either the pull of gravity or the push of centripetal, but usually a combination of both in which case one is dominant. Hopefully we agree that at transition, edges need to be released. If you are under the influence of gravity at the time, it is your weight that is pushing the edges into the surface and we need to eliminate that pressure. This situation is more acute at the entry levels of skiing where velocity is low.

If tipping is your method of release, please consider the following example:

If you want to make a left turn then the left ankle and knee need to tip to the left. Because the student is subject to gravity there is weight present on the left ski . Tipping will only bring your mass along with it increasing pressure on the left side. This movement (again, under gravity), violates the fundamental to direct pressure to the outside ski. You might even say that, under these parameters, GFR with the inside ski is the problem.... especially if the skier is in a wedge configuration. Don't get me wrong, tipping is key (and it starts at the foot ski interface) but we must not let the tipping movement contribute to our mass abandoning its commitment to the outside ski.

As I said in my post to you, if I am at high velocity and linking turns, the time that I am subject to gravity as my force for balance is miniscule and what you profess makes all the sense in the world because I am operating under centripetal force and moving in the direction of intended travel automatically aligns my mass with the building turning force.

Good discussion by the way although a bit in the weeds.
 
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Mike King

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If you want to make a left turn then the left ankle and knee need to tip to the left. Because the student is subject to gravity there is weight present on the left ski . Tipping will only bring your mass along with it increasing pressure on the left side. This movement (again, under gravity), violates the fundamental to direct pressure to the outside ski. You might even say that, under these parameters, GFR with the inside ski is the problem.... especially if the skier is in a wedge configuration. Don't get me wrong, tipping is key (and it starts at the foot ski interface) but we must not let the tipping movement contribute to our mass abandoning its commitment to the outside ski.
.

Not sure about your description here -- you can change edges with pressure on the new inside foot and allow centripetal force to transfer pressure to the outside foot. You can also direct pressure to the new outside foot prior to edge change and use tipping to change edges.

Sorry, @Tim Hodgson, this discussion is very much in the weeds and has left the OP's question almost entirely.
 

markojp

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As long as we're headed into the weeds, this is pretty cool and worth thinking about in relation to important bits of the thread.... buuuuut maybe it needs it's own thread. Dunno. Yeah, it's racing, but it's very much in the realm of managing vs making forces. Looping back to A-framing, we can begin to see patterns that emerge in chronic A-framing that influence the DIRT of pressure application and resultant turn shape. It's hard to manage forces if you're 'mak'in brake'in'.

 

markojp

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... and this too:


Geek on, Garth!
 

Tim Hodgson

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I was going to say i.e., (my guess is) that everything said here regarding the snow-ski interaction is directly related to Wendy's (and my) A-frame. And A-frame comes from having two skis (if we only had one, we would have no A-frame). Before we can ski two skis properly, we must ski one ski properly. I think it is the outside ski. Trying to fix two skis, when the outside ski is not doing the right thing in the first place won't help me or Wendy. The (two footed) A-frame is not what needs to be fixed first. The A-frame only needs to be fixed AFTER the one footed outside ski is fixed. But I could be wrong...

markojp: Ron Kipp's video lights a couple extra brain light bulbs.

1. There is only so much pressure that can exist (made/created or managed/extracted) in a single turn. What a concept !!!

2. So one of the skier's choices is WHERE in the turn to use that pressure to create the resulting reaction from its use.

3. The application of Edge/Pressure in a turn fast enough to create centrifugal force (apologies) is, in effect, bouncing a ball off a wall -- a banked shot input/reaction.

4. The application of new inside ski tip Edge/Pressure (i.e., putting edge and weight) on the new INSIDE ski tip is a VALID move. And shortens up the transition. Both Wendy and I put too much weight on the inside ski and wedge. (I also down stem and up stem at times -- thinking about it now, stemming seems to me to be a ROTARY movement of the ski to substitute for a properly timed and forward weighted tipped ski edge. (In other words, I could accomplish the same thing with Edge/Pressure if my CoM was more forward and I could get the ski tip to bite at the end/transition of the turn.)

Again, maybe Phil could transfer some of this thread to a new thread, but this stuff ain't weeds guys and gals. This is the essence of skiing.

BTW, I cannot ski. And my skiing will likely even be WORSE this next season because of all the snow-ski interactions I want to experiment with. Thanks.



 
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François Pugh

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Comments from the non-instructor peanut gallery:

There have been a lot of good points made in this thread, and I don't disagree with any of them, but they have to be taken in context.
What move to concentrate on in order to improve your individual skiing depends on where you are in your development, what other things are properly in place.

What to concentrate on when making turns and working on improvement depends on your particular goal is in this particular instant of this particular turn, and what abilities you have to compensate for what you need to do now to get there.

What to do right now in the moment while skiing depends on what your aim is, and what your abilities are.

Also, as a general rule, skiing is a bit like riding a rein trained horse; you don't push the horse around, you let it know what you want it to do and let it do the hard work (which is not meant to say that aggressive full-tilt- see what I did there? - skiing isn't a physical workout for you too).

Bracing is generally bad, but F=ma so you cannot turn without accepting some force from that outside leg (let the ski create the force).

You typically shouldn't resist your tipping by not letting the inside leg shorten, and sometimes, depending on circumstances, you will find you can tip more if you deliberately lift it up. However, if you already have most of your weight on your inside leg in a turn, just lifting it will only throw you more off balance. First you have to be balancing along the inside edge of the outside ski, and trying to tip your skis (easier said than done for most beginner-intermediate skiers it seems), and not have that inside knee and/or hip in the way blocking you, then you can try aiding the tipping by lifting the inside ski.

IMHO, the OP should concentrate on balancing along the inside edge of the outside ski, proper inside hip and knee position and inside leg tipping.
 
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Nancy Hummel

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In many situations, the A-frame occurs because the old outside ski remains on edge while the old inside ski is tipping or being turned in the direction of the new turn.

Focus on flattening the old outside ski and not rushing the tipping/rotating of the old inside ski while flexing the old outside leg should eliminate the A-frame. It will also eliminate the need to use the upper body to turn the skis.
 

Mike King

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Comments from the non-instructor peanut gallery:

There have been a lot of good points made in this thread, and I don't disagree with any of them, but they have to be taken in context.
What move to concentrate on in order to improve your individual skiing depends on where you are in your development, what other things are properly in place.

What to concentrate on when making turns and working on improvement depends on your particular goal is in this particular instant of this particular turn, and what abilities you have to compensate for what you need to do now to get there.

What to do right now in the moment while skiing depends on what your aim is, and what your abilities are.

Also, as a general rule, skiing is a bit like riding a rein trained horse; you don't push the horse around, you let it know what you want it to do and let it do the hard work (which is not meant to say that aggressive full-tilt- see what I did there? - skiing isn't a physical workout for you too).

Bracing is generally bad, but F=ma so you cannot turn without accepting some force from that outside leg (let the ski create the force).

You typically shouldn't resist your tipping by not letting the inside leg shorten, and sometimes, depending on circumstances, you will find you can tip more if you deliberately lift it up. However, if you already have most of your weight on your inside leg in a turn, just lifting it will only throw you more off balance. First you have to be balancing along the inside edge of the outside ski, and trying to tip your skis (easier said than done for most beginner-intermediate skiers it seems), and not have that inside knee and/or hip in the way blocking you, then you can try aiding the tipping by lifting the inside ski.

IMHO, the OP should concentrate on balancing along the inside edge of the outside ski, proper inside hip and knee position and inside leg tipping.
Couldn't agree more about context, and why I said the conversation had drifted well away from the OP's question.

I agree that the OP needs to balance on the inside edge of the outside ski, but part of the issue is how to get there. And to get there, the OP has to learn to tip the lower leg through edge change. So, IMHO, it's two things: learn to tip the lower legs to create a platform that can accept the pressure in the turn, and balance against the pressure on the inside edge of the outside ski.

Mike
 

Magi

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Couldn't agree more about context, and why I said the conversation had drifted well away from the OP's question.

I agree that the OP needs to balance on the inside edge of the outside ski, but part of the issue is how to get there. And to get there, the OP has to learn to tip the lower leg through edge change. So, IMHO, it's two things: learn to tip the lower legs to create a platform that can accept the pressure in the turn, and balance against the pressure on the inside edge of the outside ski.

Mike

Which of those is an outcome?
 

Mike King

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@Magi I'm not sure what you mean by outcome, but they are linked (as are many other things in skiing). Tipping is an important skill as it is critical to establishing edge while having snow travel along the length of the ski rather than across it. Having snow traveling along the ski while it is on edge is necessary to establish grip. And with grip and a bent edged ski, the ski will turn itself.

Many skiers never learn how to engage a ski to establish edge. They instead learn to tip the skis by crossing over the skis with their upper body and inclining into the turn. This puts them on the inside ski. To turn the ski, they push the ski away from them, increasing edge, but the action is a displacement where the skier is looking for sufficient force to build up from the sideways displacement of the ski to eventually provide a push that moves the skier across the hill. But the pressure comes late. It also doesn't work very well in hard snow conditions. Finally, the skier often winds up aft on the ski.

My suggestion to Wendy to work on tipping is so that she can learn to establish the edge and platform against which she can balance. Given that her likely habitual pattern is to push the skis away from her, its going to take some work to get the duration, intensity, rate, and timing of the tipping movements that allow the ski to be tipped through transition, to build edge through lateral separation of the upper and lower body, and to have the discipline to keep her upper body from coming up and over the ski.

But, when she experiences what the tipping movements achieve in terms of creating a platform to accept pressure, she will probably have more confidence to allow the turning mechanics to come from bending and edging the ski rather than pushing the ski with the leg.

So, long winded answer, but I see the tipping as the movement patter that will enable her to balance against the outside ski. She's not likely to develop the trust to balance against the outside ski without learning to tip it with the lower body -- that is, the ankles and lower leg (e.g. femurs rotate to tip the lower leg).

Hence the progression I suggested to her: skating to get the movement patterns of rotating the knee in and down to establish edge, J turns to bring the tipping mechanics into carved turns (to feel what a platform feels like), outside ski turns moving picking the new inside ski before edge change to get the roll of the ankle and lower leg through edge change, etc.

Mike
 
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Magi

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@Magi I'm not sure what you mean by outcome...

Some things are outcomes (effects), some things are inputs, and some are side-effects. I see a lot of instructors talk about side effects instead of inputs.

"Keep your body down the mountain" is a side effect.
Turn your feet and legs under a stable pelvis is an input.
Ski in balance down the run with minimum effort is an outcome.


I think your earlier post is correct when it says "OP needs to balance over the inside edge of the outside ski". When you continue, you aren't wrong, you're just addressing *more*, and I think that dilutes your point.

So I'm asking you - which of the things you're referencing in that post is an outcome?
 

jack97

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IMO, balance is a skill and can be develop. For single leg dominance, the major leg muscle and stabilization (secondary support) muscle needs to develop as well. Below is a standard drill, to make things interesting, one can stand on a platform with less stability such as a foam or a vibration pad.

 

Doby Man

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jack97, that is a great recommendation for anyone seeking to become an expert. I am working on this right now along with the “bottom-up” version shown here:


I also do it from the floor and flexed as low as I can go reaching my feet out and training my strength and mobility within the tight vertical margin we have to work with during retraction turns. The right exercises, including TG’s second video in this series, can really mimic the strength, balance and mobility we need to be prepared for these high angle turns once we have our timing down to make it happen.

@JESinstr, I don’t think we are far off from each other. It is natural that you would want and need to be able to consider all or most of the levels that you teach as would I if that were my current circumstances. I haven’t “worked” on the hill for quite a few years now, but that has turned out to have been a huge luxury for me to concentrate on my own level and type of skiing as I do in regards to the context of most of my posts. Because I raced in the late 80’s - early 90’s and wanted to update my skills as “technique forward” as possible about 8 - 10 years ago, I became an adult learning skier and had to work very hard to change my skiing from the ground up. Literally and figuratively. After 20+ seasons of daily skiing as a youth and highschool racer, backcountry ski bum, ski instructor and race coach had me in such a fully ingrained state of technique, it was to the point that my legs would twitch into ski stance while sleeping (according to more than one witness). I once kicked my GF hard in the butt upon an aggressive 100% weight shift to the outside after falling asleep while watching live streaming WC at 3 in the am. Ultimately, I had to shift my entire conception of ski technique over onto its head, upside down. No longer looked at it from the top-down but, instead from the bottom-up, or the “ski” up. It was difficult because it was a complete kinetic reversal and had some pretty retarded moments along the way.

Nerd alert warning! Read forward at your own risk.

Currently, for me, “ski function patterns” (tipping, edging, bending, pivoting/rotational, engagement, pressure/load, etc.) is where the entire kinetic cycle of a turn both begins and ends and where every movement of the body both embodies and elicits a direct correlation to ski function whether input or output. Inputs are to the ski and outputs are from the ski - the ski is between every input and its output. An input from the body is an output to the ski and the output of the ski is an input to the body. For me, it is the movement input that is very small (mostly from the knee down) compared to the movement output of body flexion motored by GFR. If you can’t trace a movement pattern to the input or output of ski function, it is nothing but hot air. Overlapping anatomic motor patterns (flexion, extension, rotation, angulation, inclination) cycle through the three phases and transition to complete that cycle.

Imagine, for a moment. one ski turn on a bell curve chart and how the DIRT of each of the five fundamental motor patterns and ski function patterns listed above (the ski and body as one unit on the bell graph) will rise and fall at different rates through the three phases of the turn. The X axis would be the turn phase duration and timing (duration = distance along x axis - & - timing = timing of one pattern against another and at which phase) and the Y axis would be the rate and intensity of the motor pattern (rate = height on graph based on distance of individual movement - & - intensity = the pitch of that line as it rises and falls). Transition would be where the turn cycle flat lines on the bell curve before the start of a new turn and where 3 of the 5 fundamental motor patterns (angulation, inclination, rotation) return to neutral zero at some point. If you want to see the duration, intensity, rate and timing of each motor pattern as they relate to each other, chart them all on one bell curve chart to actually see what the significance of what the DIRT of each separate movement pattern looks like in each turn. If one wore a GPS sensory tagged suit, we could get these bell curve data points graphed on a screen. Of course, that will never happen. While some patterns and, the lines they represent, residing on the bell graph will match each other simultaneously and/or follow sequentially, they will all overlap each other to some degree and all the lines will graciously taper to and from the base line axis. We could then see a visual representation of layered movements for skill blending. The more flow that a skier has overall, the more the the lines charted on the bell curve will visually represent that “same” flow through the chart.

Because ski technique is so systemic, when we discuss the “timing” of our movements, they are most significant as they relate with each of the other patterns rather than just individually against the timing of the turn itself. We would see things like how we rotate (counter) over the ski during flexion but rotate back to neutral into transition while using static extension over the ski to give the ski power to finish a strong turn. We can call it a homeostasis of a turn’s motor pattern life cycle as if the turn were a living, breathing organism. I suppose the bell curve of a bad skier with no or little flow would look like the stock market crashing. I have a friend who's got a motor pattern ponzi scheme going on but he is in too deep to give it up. The SEC is after him for motor pattern investment fraud and he was last sighted skiing somewhere in Eastern Europe with a bunch of hurried compensatory movement patterns shuffled into an antiche case.

Re: A framing

The ankle flexion directional sensory device used by the Forward Ski System (https://forwardski.com/racing/) for identifying the amount (angle) and matching of inside/outside fore to aft ankle flexion could also, by the way it works, be designed to be used on the sides of the shin/calves to register lateral lower leg tipping and matching for those who wish to eliminate A framing with direct input. Though, I don’t believe that direct input to match shafts both fore/aft and lateral is the answer. Nor do I believe that correcting stance width is a direct input fix either as they are all systematically fundamental applications that should really start first with identifying what you want the ski to do and then work your way up the chain from there. A framing and stance width are systemic outputs for which the systemic inputs initiate a number of stages up or down the chain from said output. In any case, mid chain fixes with a focus left isolated from the full chain of relevant movement are never ideal, rarely sustainable and probably never reach complete fruition of the intended development. I contend that if a skier had a fully ingrained A frame and tried to abolish it through direct input of controlling parallel shafts without engaging the inside ski and thus closing the chain (closed vs open chain mechanics), that they would continue to A frame anyway. Not until we pressure both the inside and outside ski (w/significant outside pressure dominance) do we get feedback from the edge itself that will indicate to the well trained foot and ankle how the ski is tipped. How high and how equal.

I feel that those sole pressure sensory footbeds would be hard to benefit from without any additional readings such as a cuff pressure sensor pad which would probably make things too complex and expensive to produce. However, even with an additional cuff pressure sensor, because there are so many other inputs than sole and cuff pressure that contributes to pressuring and turning a ski, I don’t think it would be very helpful. Tipping the ski with the ankle itself brings about ground force reaction that pushes up on the ski, thus creating turning pressure without regulating sole or cuff pressure to any significant degree. It is probably good at registering left - right pressure distribution, but, that needs to be something the skier needs to register themselves from the get-go anyway.

Developmental sequence: The core cause to an A frame is an inactive inside ski. However, it is difficult to engage the inside ski for contribution of the carving effort and changing the direction of momentum if you need to use it as an outrigger for balance. Basically, balancing on a dead stump. Achieving 100% outside ski balance really needs to happen before we free the inside ski to bend and engage in a competent/beneficial manner. Attempting to engage the inside ski without outside ski balance will result in dropping too much weight to the inside. Left/right pressure distribution control over two fully engaged/bent skis is a skill level beyond that of simply being able to balance 100% on the outside. If we are not going to engage the inside ski, an A frame is meaningless. When a racer does not have time or a need to engage the inside ski, they do not care if an A frame results. Skiing is not about how it looks but rather how it functions where the the most efficient and effective function provides the most ideal aesthetic and is also why using direct input controls to change your technique rarely works if that is the only method being used. Direct inputs can be helpful when rotating through the system and trying to figure things out but many are ones that will not be employed in the final product.

Per the OP’s specific question on what she can do in the off season: “outside foot balance” and “inside foot use” can be initiated, developed and refined by learning a basic and simple “double push” inline speed skating technique (inline, not ice) in the off season. It will enhance your alignment skills to the third degree and improve lower leg mobility under a low and gliding CoM and very similar to the way we do it for alpine. If you are an advanced intermediate or above skier, you already have a baseline of skills for a fast start. Put a big speed skate frame and wheels under a full, 3 buckle inline skate boot and you will be amazed at what you can do with just a little targeted development. It will teach your upper to relax while putting the power, control and balance into your feet and ankles that will sing on snow.
 

Doby Man

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A classic “A frame”, as clearly indicated by the lack of inside ski engagement.

G1z343ous_Tzb9yN00Pt0cx633HT-roK6SCmFVMsz-lePtrrDRntDazyOtxc2orB1VDdopgOKlm2dYdsn6qlWCZnALOPSTtrT_AEWGoBvhVtaRYVrfPk3dqKgn0PSOH_cPMtJHJA



Here is a new technique called the “X frame” that I recommend it be replaced with:

ojkkooPbF4qnST1cFt4pfn7OE-lOqKA_becitiaYXBSV9G0dSA3AuGQS1Ka190D-FA7LaTIw6J9Dk5eh34ImEIAu4M3gMZHlGXYKkpgKiSOinqv5_7INaGe3qEDaRFQf2Pi3uwNZ


While there is an obvious lack of engagement of both skis, the “X frame” is deceivingly aerodynamic. When you strike a pose that cool, the air simply steps out of your way in enamored confusion, something similar to letting a lamborghini have the right away as a pedestrian in the middle of a crosswalk. The “X frame” is also good technique for checking the sharpness of your edges when it looks like you will need to be turning upon landing any big jump. You can tell, from the gaping mouth and far-off look on this skier’s eyes, that he is thinking about the last few passes of his tuning stone that he skipped from the night before (never drink with your technician). Because I already look cool … and the air knows it, checking my edges is the only reason why I use the move. But, if you are slow, I would recommend it. I don’t mean slow as in “intellectually”, especially due to the complexity of the move, but rather because the wind is hitting you hard in the chest.
 
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