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Kneale Brownson

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@dj61, I don't think you are advocating that he counterrotate, right? Counter should be an outcome, not an input. In other words, he needs more leg rotation under a stable upper body rather than turning the upper body against the lower body.

Mike

I was thinking skiing into counter (feet turning more than the torso), but I was on the iPhone and didn't have time to painfully finger the response in.
 

Doby Man

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Almost all my counter comes from the rotational effect of a pure carving ski and the allowance I give it with a rotationally loose midsection and a steadily directed CoM. However, when I see an oncoming pressing need for that outside ski, based on a number of aspects such as turn intent, fall line, etc., I will add a touch of my own rotary with the upper so I can get full body angulation earlier than normal in the turn, sooner than what skiing into counter will provide. More typically we start the turn with more inclination and end it with more angulation. But when we have turn circumstances that will build turn forces/pressure early in the turn such as transitional gates in GS, it can help to make such an adjustment (for those who understand rotary based angulation).

For those who ski from the feet, the mechanical output of a powerfully carving ski under a steady CoM is what produces that rotary effect from the body but also flexion and extension from ground force reaction as well as angulation and inclination from the lateral displacement of the skis (BoS) under the CoM. They allow for the powerfully driven path of the ski under a resistant and more steadily directed CoM to create all these movements when the movements are simply "allowed" to happen. Many skiers have too much kinesthetic directives running between the upper and lower to be loose enough for this to happen. Learning it is about letting go. Not holding on.
 

dj61

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@dj61, I don't think you are advocating that he counterrotate, right? Counter should be an outcome, not an input. In other words, he needs more leg rotation under a stable upper body rather than turning the upper body against the lower body.

Mike
Yep!
 

LiquidFeet

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Hi LF you are from epic ski with same name right? You had given me ma on my 2015 video back then. Its uploaded under the same youtube account. See it you will remember perhaps....

@Ozan, yes that's me. Props to your videographer! Great video (except for the vertical format; have it done horizontal in the future) if you expect people to view it on laptops or desktop computers with horizontal monitors.

Your current turns are smooth and controlled, and very effective at what they do. They look a little odd to the community here because you come up so tall as you initiate them; you get taller than most people do who use this turn initiation. I think that's why people are giving you ways to tweak this turn. You can mess with the tip lead, you can mess with your counter, you can mess with the timing of the flexion and the extension of each leg, you can mess with turn completion. But I'm not sure any tweaking is going to deliver dramatic change in the line you ski, however. And those tweaks will not make skiing bumps and trees easier. These turns are fine as they are. I'm in the camp that suggests you learn another way to start your turns so then you'll have at least two very different turns in your tool box.

This turn you're doing now is started from a slightly countered position, with skis pointing pretty much across the hill (your turns are completed), and with inside/uphill hip and foot slightly forward of your stance foot. (No issues there.) Then you progressively lengthen/extend that uphill/old inside/new outside leg to make yourself get very tall. This as an "extension initiation" or extension release or extension turn.

When a skier lengthens that uphill/old inside/new outside leg, and when its foot is ahead of the other foot, that movement will produce a turn initiation all by itself. There doesn't need to be any tail pushing or rotation of that new outside ski. You are not tail-pushing nor rotating that ski manually to point it down the hill. The skis simply turn on their own. If the ski tips are "square" to each other when you do the uphill leg extension, the skis will release and slip downhill sideways without turning to point downhill.

To verify this, do a traverse, skis parallel, with your hips/torso facing downhill a little (counter), which will include a little uphill tip lead. Then lengthen/straighten/extend that uphill leg smoothly. Don't do anything else. Avoid rotation the foot, or pushing the foot outward. Be sure your stance width does not change; that should prohibit any tail-push. If you successfully lengthen the leg without doing anything else, and if you had a little tip lead as you do this, the skis will turn together automagically to point downhill. You can bring the skis back to pointing across the hill, continue the traverse, and repeat the extension - over and over if the trail is wide and without traffic. This will give you garlands, and will prove that it's the uphill leg extension alone that turns both skis to point downhill. You can try it with ski tips square to each other to confirm that the tip lead is essential. (If you manually rotate the skis, that's cheating!)

Some responders are saying you are manually rotating the skis. I don't see it.

This extension initiation works fast and easy in a wedge, so many instructors teach this action to help beginners in a wedge to make their first turns. But it works with parallel skis as well, which if you have done that traverse/garland you have just verified. In your turns you have taken this movement to its logical end and stand tall all the way before shortening the other (new inside) leg. Most skiers who use this initiation shorten the new inside leg sooner than you do, which keeps their heads from ever getting so high. Your head goes waaay up, then drops down; this roller coaster for your head probably delivers great sensations. You'll feel a thrill with every turn when the head drops - much like when a roller coaster hits its initial summit and begins to free-fall. Free-fall delivers thrills!

I've been in an examiner's clinic where our group of instructors were led to do this turn on a steep icy groomer. We were asked to start with a diagonal sideslip with a little counter and resulting tip lead, then extend the uphill/new outside leg. We were strongly told to do nothing else but that extension, and then wait for the skis to point downhill. As they pointed downhill, they were finally flat on the hard snow. It worked! At that point we were to pay attention to our bodies getting straight as a rod, straight as a ski jumper, just as the skis reached the fall line.

Then, not before, we were told to shorten the inside leg to bring the skis around. That worked too, and the skis finally found their new edges.

Doing a turn this way took some willingness to go very fast, since that's what happened when the skis pointed down the fall line on this steep icy groomer (Avalanche at Cannon). But we did it, and the skis turned across the hill and gripped when we shortened/flexed the inside leg to get the second half of the turn to happen. We worked on shortening these turns as much as we could, for speed control, still separating the extension of the outside leg from the flexion of the inside leg. They would shorten only so much without us adding some manual rotation of the new outside ski, which yielded a wedge entry.

So yes, the turn you are currently doing is doable on steep groomers, even when the slope is icy. Give it a try.

But this turn is not going to give you good access to bumps or trees or steep narrows. You need a turn that will give you the option to get the skis around faster, so that you can precisely place the apex of each turn where it needs to be, and keep the corridor narrow - on command. A flexion turn, started by shortening the new inside/downhill leg, will give you that. You'll lose the freefall feeling of your head dropping, because it will stay more level to the snow. This is really worth adding to your toolbox of turns. Some people above are suggesting this, and I'm in their camp.
 
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JESinstr

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You still need to allow the new outside leg to extend, but the extension starts after edge change -- not before (which is what you are doing now). You just have the timing of the extension and flexion movements out of phase.

There are three things that I see that are leading to diminished ski performance in your skiing. Second, you extend off of the uphill (old outside ski) and come up, losing contact with the outside ski in the early part of the turn. Mike

Got it ! Will try. Thanks

Hi Ozan. I am just checking in on if you have tried to address what Mike suggested. Looking at your video, I see your primary issue being what Mike stated above, notwithstanding his additional points and the points that others have made.

When you begin your transition, I see a pronounced, intentional vertical thrust (extension) from the old inside leg sending your mass vertically upward. Your focus is on this (and I believe it is ingrained in your skiing) and not getting to your new edges which should be job #1. Your new outside ski only achieves minimum edge angle which does not substantially increase until well into the turn. As a result, your skis start the turn by redirecting in skidding mode and the only way to manage skidding is with rotary.

So, your must change your movement patterns and begin focusing on changing edges and not thrusting vertically. The key to a carved turn is getting to your new edges sooner rather than later.

There is no shame in making "tall" transitions but skiing happens from the bottom up and if not executed correctly, the effects on resulting turn can be profound.
 
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Ozan

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Thx jes. As i stated above i overdid the extension in that run so i dont fall on the inside ski right after transition in the video. Normally i dont ski like that. But im glad i overdid it and you guys giving me hell about it. Honestly i wasnt sure how i should be doing transitions. I probably normally do something in the middle without any knowledge of what exactly im doing. A move in the middle by instinct probably. I havent had the time to go back on slopes. Hopefully will go after march 12. I sure noted the suggestion and will be focusing on that. Im hoping that shortening the old outside leg and tipping the new outside leg at the top is some move somewhat in my muscle memory and i will be able to crack it without too much work.
I will also put some load on the inside ski. Keep it back. And keep the skis wider especially on the left turns.

If i have someone with me to film it i will post it here. If not next season
 
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Chris V.

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Im hoping that shortening the old outside leg and tipping the new outside leg at the top is some move somewhat in my muscle memory and i will be able to crack it without too much work. I will also put some load on the inside ski.

To reiterate--for most skiers, a mental focus on tipping the new INSIDE foot is what's effective (and in many cases has been deficient). Since the turning forces naturally direct your weight to the outside ski, that ski will ordinarily come along for the ride and perform well without you giving it much thought. Likewise, the loading of the inside ski should, in my opinion, be more a result of the other things you are doing than of a deliberate direction of weight there.
 

Kneale Brownson

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Find some almost flat terrain with no traffic. Ski straight down the fall line, weighting the skis equally. Raise the arch of one foot inside the boot. You will have tipped the inside ski toward its little toe edge. This will automatically make you edge and pressure the outside ski. You will turn.

Flatten the skis with patience and they'll seek the fall line again, where you can raise the arch of the other foot.
 

JESinstr

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To reiterate--for most skiers, a mental focus on tipping the new INSIDE foot is what's effective (and in many cases has been deficient). Since the turning forces naturally direct your weight to the outside ski, that ski will ordinarily come along for the ride and perform well without you giving it much thought. Likewise, the loading of the inside ski should, in my opinion, be more a result of the other things you are doing than of a deliberate direction of weight there.


Chris, With all due respect and in the context of linked carved turns, The notion that focus on tipping the new inside ski little toe edge is an effective way to begin directing pressure to the outside ski is misguided. All this does is help promote that you begin with a movement of your mass to the inside with the assumption that turning forces will be there at the right time and place to support the counter force of your mass. And odds are that the movement of mass will be one of upper body inclination and not angulation.

The inside leg promotes the development of edge angles not by tipping but primarily through active, regulated shortening (Flexing) that also "makes room" for proper alignment of mass to the inside edge of the outside ski. While shortening, it is very natural for the inside leg to mimic the angles of the outside leg.

This process begins with the ankles and progressively moves up through the knees to the hip sockets where the pelvis can laterally incline (move) to the inside while the trunk remains as vertical as possible. When I contemplate a turn, my focus is on lifting the uphill/outside edge of the old inside ski and the shortening of the inside leg, not rolling down on the little toe edge of the old outside ski.

In terms of contact with the surface, the Inside ski maintains a minimal contact track supporting the outside ski trajectory until the skis leaves the fall line into the belly of the turn at which time the change in slope promotes stronger inside ski engagement and participation in finishing off the turn thus setting the stage for transition.

Initiation by tipping on to the "Little Toe Edge" is very Harb-oinan IMO.
 

Chris V.

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And odds are that the movement of mass will be one of upper body inclination and not angulation.

The inside leg promotes the development of edge angles not by tipping but primarily through active, regulated shortening (Flexing) that also "makes room" for proper alignment of mass to the inside edge of the outside ski.

...In terms of contact with the surface, the Inside ski maintains a minimal contact track supporting the outside ski trajectory until the skis leaves the fall line into the belly of the turn at which time the change in slope promotes stronger inside ski engagement and participation in finishing off the turn thus setting the stage for transition.

The comments in my most recent post were addressed to the specific things Ozan said in his last message. I believe the earlier parts of this thread did a good job addressing the importance of shortening the new inside leg, and I certainly agree. I was just trying to keep my remarks short and simple. They shouldn't be misunderstood as comprehensive, by any means. Likewise, iI totally understand and agree with the importance of angulation. It just didn't seem to be a primary issue for Ozan, so one hopes that with a few changes it will all come together for him.

Your last paragraph I 100% agree with and recognize as important. It may be considered a distillation of the best of the other ongoing thresd on inside vs. outside ski weight.
 

JESinstr

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@Chris V. Thanks...that's why I said with "All due respect" !

I do ask you to take a second look at @Ozan 's video especially initiation of his left turns. Total inclination here with very little angulation going on. Therefore, he cannot build sufficient edge angles and the skis skid out until he does angulate heading into the fall line.


upload_2019-3-8_17-18-53.png
 

razie

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razie

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@Ozan I see most of your turns start with a rotation of the upper body, hips and shoulders, following that siZeable up move. It's more visible on the left foot - you maY have to slow down the video, to see it (slow the YouTube player down and look at how your shoulders are the first thing to turn into the new turn, aka rotation) . That's something I would address.

There is no counter created at the top of the turn, just a tiny bit at the end - there is that strong rotation of the shoulders instead - not good .

The problem with that of extension and with using the upper body (that rotation) is that you can't control well the ski turning... which ends up overpowered and somewhat inconsistent

I do see counter creation as an upper body movement, against the lower body - especially as one is carving the entire turn, with the edges engaged and not free to turn. The same way rotation is an upper body movement against the extension momentum, the counteracting is the exact opposite movement of turning the hips and shoulders the other way, so you gave the outside ski early in the turn

In your case - as you have now that big shoulder rotation into the turn, just rotate them exactly the other way. Also, smooth out your big up movement and focus on using the feet to initiate - as some before already noted.

Cheers
 
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Mike King

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@Ozan I see most of your turns start with a rotation of the upper body, hips and shoulders, following that siZeable up move. It's more visible on the left foot - you maY have to slow down the video, to see it (slow the YouTube player down and look at how your shoulders are the first thing to turn into the new turn, aka rotation) . That's something I would address.

There is no counter created at the top of the turn, just a tiny bit at the end - there is that strong rotation of the shoulders instead - not good .

The problem with that of extension and with using the upper body (that rotation) is that you can't control well the ski turning... which ends up overpowered and somewhat inconsistent

I do see counter creation as an upper body movement, against the lower body - especially as one is carving the entire turn, with the edges engaged and not free to turn. The same way rotation is an upper body movement against the extension momentum, the counteracting is the exact opposite movement of turning the hips and shoulders the other way, so you gave the outside ski early in the turn

In your case - as you have now that big shoulder rotation into the turn, just rotate them exactly the other way. Also, smooth out your big up movement and focus on using the feet to initiate - as some before already noted.

Cheers
What do you think will happen to his tip lead if he, with his skill pool, starts counter rotating?

Given his current skill proficiency, he would be better off to turn the legs under the upper body. In any case, the amount of counter rotation is quite small relative to the amount of counter that is created by the legs turning under the upper body. And the DIRT of it is critical.

Mike
 

razie

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I think he'll do all right. The turns look good because he has some skill, even with that rotation... the counter action at first will hopefully just stop the rotation and he'll end up neutral...

It would be good to see some effort and then video again, for sure.

I know what you mean, the shuffle - yeah, should keep an eye on that...
 
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Ozan

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Today i skied and noticed 1 thing about that extension. I can definately initiate turn without that. Actually in the video i was going really slow thats why i was ABLE TO do it. At high speed carved turn you do that you are in the air every turn !

So enough with that...
I worked on my inside ski a bit. Pulled it back and so on.. then i did single carved turns to both sides. I noticed sometimes inside ski draws 2 very close lines. 1/2 to 1 inch apart lines. Took its picture.

Looks like the head and tail of inside ski do not carve on the same line. It means inside ski is not paralel to outside ski? Or something else im missing? Has anyone seen something like this?

I focusing so much on the outside ski i neclected the inside ski over past few years. Now gotta fix it i guess
 

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Ozan

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These pics were taken few weeks ago on a flatter slope. Higher speed. Only left turn. But inside ski problem is visible here too. If anyone can analize?
 

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LiquidFeet

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....
Looks like the head and tail of inside ski do not carve on the same line. It means inside ski is not paralel to outside ski? Or something else im missing? Has anyone seen something like this?....

68738-a17ee6ac95bf1d862737ba08f30b17d1.jpg

That second line next to your inside ski may be your pole. Could you be dragging it?
 

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