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ski otter 2

Making fresh tracks
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Front Range, Colorado
My outlook on this is colored by my being at this point a lighter weight skier (c. 150 lbs/5'10"), and the fact that these days I almost always prefer skis that are a size or two longer than those charts or my weight alone would suggest.

In general, I agree with @HardDaysNight that skill level is the most important factor. I like his example of a smaller but skilled woman liking a much longer ski than many much larger men would find useful.

Also, the properties of the ski itself, and of what you want it to accomplish, often come in a strong second. For example, the 188/30 FIS GS race ski feels more fun and just as easy to me as the 183/30 or older 183/23, irrespective of length.

For another example, I'm a lighter weight guy, but with the right skis, for fore-aft stability in resort powder, I'm likely to often prefer the longest ski the company makes: 189 to 191, especially on wet snow days (like yesterday here!!), deep chop days, windblown days or even refreeze days. Modern ski developments make this possible, I gather. In powder and crud, the things feel shorter and easier to handle just because of stability and great design. And I'm into "easier."

Third, @Noodler 's elegant Center of Mass explanation (taking into account height with weight) sounds good to me. My example here is that the ski lengths I usually like best have seemed in line with my height more than with my weight - more with my CM.

In practical terms, picking the skis and ski lengths that work best, or are likely to work for others, I like to go mostly by experience, past and present. Therefore, I - and many others - demo, at different lengths and with different skis, every year. And there are lots of surprises, especially if I base expectations on past experience/conclusions I've so far drawn on, let alone theories based on physics.

I'm not saying physics doesn't apply here, or isn't useful: just that there are a whole lot of variables, many of them mostly unknown. For most skiers, it's more of a dance or art than a ski design/build project.
 

skix

Out on the slopes
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Feb 19, 2018
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399
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...
Not mis-stated. But you're not thinking through the angles involved. The shorter the person the greater the angle they have to shift through to balance while pressuring shovel or tail

Where you carry your weight has a direct impact on how it will impact your boots and skis (as described above). Height is a simplistic way of noting that the CM is most likely in a different position than another person of different height.

I kept chewing on this after posting and ended up agreeing with above. The hypothetical that finally clicked for me is that if you consider a "person" that is 10 foot tall with all their weight concentrated in their head then they will need a longer ski under them to counter the forces generated when the head swings about. Same weight on a 3 foot tall pole generates less force when it swings. Conclusion being that (in general) taller skiers benefit from longer skis because it helps manage the increased forces transmitted to the skis caused by their COM being more distant from boot/ski interface.
 

SBrown

So much better than a pro
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Nov 8, 2015
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My outlook on this is colored by my being at this point a lighter weight skier (c. 150 lbs/5'10"), and the fact that these days I almost always prefer skis that are a size or two longer than those charts or my weight alone would suggest.

In general, I agree with @HardDaysNight that skill level is the most important factor. I like his example of a smaller but skilled woman liking a much longer ski than many much larger men would find useful.

Also, the properties of the ski itself, and of what you want it to accomplish, often come in a strong second. For example, the 188/30 FIS GS race ski feels more fun and just as easy to me as the 183/30 or older 183/23, irrespective of length.

For another example, I'm a lighter weight guy, but with the right skis, for fore-aft stability in resort powder, I'm likely to often prefer the longest ski the company makes: 189 to 191, especially on wet snow days (like yesterday here!!), deep chop days, windblown days or even refreeze days. Modern ski developments make this possible, I gather. In powder and crud, the things feel shorter and easier to handle just because of stability and great design. And I'm into "easier."

Third, @Noodler 's elegant Center of Mass explanation (taking into account height with weight) sounds good to me. My example here is that the ski lengths I usually like best have seemed in line with my height more than with my weight - more with my CM.

In practical terms, picking the skis and ski lengths that work best, or are likely to work for others, I like to go mostly by experience, past and present. Therefore, I - and many others - demo, at different lengths and with different skis, every year. And there are lots of surprises, especially if I base expectations on past experience/conclusions I've so far drawn on, let alone theories based on physics.

I'm not saying physics doesn't apply here, or isn't useful: just that there are a whole lot of variables, many of them mostly unknown. For most skiers, it's more of a dance or art than a ski design/build project.

I am a bit in the same boat, which is why I think you start with height and then adjust for weight, not the other way around. I remember @Noodler making the point some years ago that you wouldn't put a 5'2" 200lb person and a 6'5" 200lb person on the same pair of skis (or something like that); in fact, it would most likely be more than one size different, as well. You start with something around the chin to head (ie height) and then go from there. I ended up on a pair of 163 powder skis about a dozen years ago, due to everyone saying Weight! Weight! Weight! and that's when I learned this lesson. And also learned to start making my own buying decisions.
 

Jean-Benoit

Putting on skis
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Jan 13, 2018
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73
These last few posts regarding the importance of center of mass/height make a lot of sense and have really made me reframe this whole question. I was pretty convinced that height was not a big factor.

But then, I'm stumped : why does a major company like Rossignol (and a few others if I remember) use weight as their primary criterion for ski selection ?? (see chart posted by @geepers on previous page). Would love to hear from an industry insider.
 

François Pugh

Skiing the powder
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Great White North (Eastern side currently)
These last few posts regarding the importance of center of mass/height make a lot of sense and have really made me reframe this whole question. I was pretty convinced that height was not a big factor.

But then, I'm stumped : why does a major company like Rossignol (and a few others if I remember) use weight as their primary criterion for ski selection ?? (see chart posted by @geepers on previous page). Would love to hear from an industry insider.
Because height and weight are equal factors in terms of applying fore-aft torque. Weight is the only factor in terms of turn force in a properly carved turn. Weight is the only factor in terms of gravity force required for penetration of ice-like surfaces or holding the ski in its grove. Consider it a weighted average: weight 3 points, height 1 point, speed 2 points. Ability assumed competent; I'm not a fan of choosing shorter length for limited abilities instead of choosing a different ski (baring the rare exceptions).
 

Jean-Benoit

Putting on skis
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Because height and weight are equal factors in terms of applying fore-aft torque. Weight is the only factor in terms of turn force in a properly carved turn. Weight is the only factor in terms of gravity force required for penetration of ice-like surfaces or holding the ski in its grove. Consider it a weighted average: weight 3 points, height 1 point, speed 2 points. Ability assumed competent; I'm not a fan of choosing shorter length for limited abilities instead of choosing a different ski (baring the rare exceptions).
Makes a lot of sense. Thanks for that nuanced, precise answer.
 

AltaFan

Booting up
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Jan 19, 2019
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46
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Bay Area/Wasatch
Here's a factoid - the ski sizing table at snowpro for Rossignol.

Alpine-Ski_Size-Chart_final.jpg


Notice it is stated up top: optimal ski length is determined by the following order: weight, ability, height and aggressiveness. The chart has only weight ranges for ski lengths. If you are on the border (e.g. 169-170lbs for many skis above) then you might want to try both sizes if one suits better.

Personally I always go for the shortest ski I can get away with. Less weight on the end of the leg and less effort to pivot means more vertical feet per day for the same level of exhaustion.

That Rossignol chart is really useful. Is that something they publish publicly or just for ski pros? I wonder if other manufacturers have something similar.
 

Noodler

Sir Turn-a-lot
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Oct 4, 2017
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Denver, CO
Because height and weight are equal factors in terms of applying fore-aft torque. Weight is the only factor in terms of turn force in a properly carved turn. Weight is the only factor in terms of gravity force required for penetration of ice-like surfaces or holding the ski in its grove. Consider it a weighted average: weight 3 points, height 1 point, speed 2 points. Ability assumed competent; I'm not a fan of choosing shorter length for limited abilities instead of choosing a different ski (baring the rare exceptions).

I don't agree. The application of the force due to weight + gravity is directional. The force has a vector due to the continuously variable fore/aft positioning of that weight over the ski. It's not always perfectly straight towards the binding.
 

François Pugh

Skiing the powder
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Yes, all forces have direction. Gravity (as far as skiers need concern themselves) pulls us towards the centre of Earth. A reaction force to gravity pushes us perpendicular to the surface of the snow. Turn forces push us in the direction of the turn (usually in the plane of the snow surface on average), perpendicular to the tangent of the curve we are in at the moment. Add the forces up and we get acceleration in the direction of the net force acting on us.

Leverage, when applied, acts to shape the ski, and change the curve, and thus also change the resulting direction of the turn force.
 

Dave

dmas
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Jan 29, 2016
Posts
12
Personally, I think the farther your height/weight ratio is from average the more the ski size "rules" become questionable. I'm a major outlier...only 165cm tall but around 160-165 lbs. My BMI says I'm obese but I have low levels of body fat for my age. I've found around 5cm over my head works for frontside skis, and ~ 10cm over for mid fats with a bit of early rise. These preferred sizes have been remarkably consistent over the years for me with many different individual skis. For my powder ski I'm skiing 179 Billygoats which are a legit 15cm over my head. I can't even imagine skiing a powder ski that was my head height or an all mountain frontside ski that came up to my chin. My height obviously does comes into play when choosing a ski. If I go much longer than these lengths, skis can tend to get cumbersome. Still, it does seem like weight plays a bigger role for me relative to height. This may run opposite of what someone who is taller but lighter than me experiences. Bottom line is try out a ton of skis and use what works for you. Particularly if you have an atypical body shape.
 

Noodler

Sir Turn-a-lot
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Personally, I think the farther your height/weight ratio is from average the more the ski size "rules" become questionable. I'm a major outlier...only 165cm tall but around 160-165 lbs. My BMI says I'm obese but I have low levels of body fat for my age. I've found around 5cm over my head works for frontside skis, and ~ 10cm over for mid fats with a bit of early rise. These preferred sizes have been remarkably consistent over the years for me with many different individual skis. For my powder ski I'm skiing 179 Billygoats which are a legit 15cm over my head. I can't even imagine skiing a powder ski that was my head height or an all mountain frontside ski that came up to my chin. My height obviously does comes into play when choosing a ski. If I go much longer than these lengths, skis can tend to get cumbersome. Still, it does seem like weight plays a bigger role for me relative to height. This may run opposite of what someone who is taller but lighter than me experiences. Bottom line is try out a ton of skis and use what works for you. Particularly if you have an atypical body shape.

I have a similar situation and tend to ski on lengths longer than what would normally be recommended. IMHO, I think a lot of people choose wider skis (deep snow skis) that are too short because they are relating their experiences from their other skis used on groomed 2D conditions. Wide skis with rocker will turn much quicker than their stated radius once the conditions go 3D. That rocker amount is not taken into account in the published sidecut radius. Also, a longer ski obviously provides more float, but more importantly provides more fore/aft stability which is especially important in deeper heavier snow or more variable conditions. That longer ski will give you the confidence to charge!

I'm 5' 7". My deep snow ski is 190cm, my all-mountain is 184cm, and my groomer zoomer is 170cm. Rocker completely changes the game when considering the correct length.
 

pykie87

Booting up
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Aug 22, 2018
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Melbourne, Australia
I think everyone is covering this quite well. There are obviously a lot of different factors including the various ski choices. I’m 6’ 4” 250 or so and I like skis that are light, have a lot of energy and not overly damp. In my everyday skis (77-86mm waist) I like something in the 178-185 range. Any wider I go up to whatever is the longest size in the ski of choice.

I'm quite similar stats, 6"5 & 227.

Like you, in my AX's @ 78cm's I liked the 175's.

90+'s I'm looking at the max length in the ski, but I never exceed 190, that's my limit.

I prefer to ski the shortest ski I can get away with, not longest.
 

pykie87

Booting up
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Aug 22, 2018
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Melbourne, Australia
Personally, I think the farther your height/weight ratio is from average the more the ski size "rules" become questionable. I'm a major outlier...only 165cm tall but around 160-165 lbs. My BMI says I'm obese but I have low levels of body fat for my age. I've found around 5cm over my head works for frontside skis, and ~ 10cm over for mid fats with a bit of early rise. These preferred sizes have been remarkably consistent over the years for me with many different individual skis. For my powder ski I'm skiing 179 Billygoats which are a legit 15cm over my head. I can't even imagine skiing a powder ski that was my head height or an all mountain frontside ski that came up to my chin. My height obviously does comes into play when choosing a ski. If I go much longer than these lengths, skis can tend to get cumbersome. Still, it does seem like weight plays a bigger role for me relative to height. This may run opposite of what someone who is taller but lighter than me experiences. Bottom line is try out a ton of skis and use what works for you. Particularly if you have an atypical body shape.

Funnily enough all the frontside ski's I love are usually just under my chin.
 

Dave

dmas
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Jan 29, 2016
Posts
12
Funnily enough all the frontside ski's I love are usually just under my chin.

Out of curiosity, I measured from the floor to a bit under my chin standing in my socks and it comes out to just over 140cm cm. So that's starting to get into snow blade territory. I've tried to embrace shorter skis over the years but just couldn't bond with them. I think part of my problem is that most skis are designed and manufactured to be dialed around what size they will sell most skis in. Once you get into the shorter sizes then parameters like sidecut get well out of the optimal window for the design and intended use of the skis. So for years I skied 173 Bonafides, when ever I got on the next size down (what was it 166?) they lost some of that he rock solid stability in variable that I loved so much about those skis. Some of it might have been length, reduced effective edge etc, but some probably was the reduced radius as well.

One of the best skiers I have ever skied with had only one pair of skis... a pair of the older Kendo's and they were some where in the mid 160's in length. He was probably 5'10 or 11" and maybe 185 lbs. This dude ripped tight bumps, east coast trees, pow, groomers. He was a really good skier. He'd bring those short Kendo's out to Utah all the time and I'd ask him, what if you get a big pow day and your stuck on those short Kendo's, he just looked at me like what's the problem? Funny thing about this guy is he had the smallest feet I have ever seen on a grown man. I think they were size 6 and he said he had to get his shoes in the kids department. My theory is that he developed a superior sense of balance when he was growing up because it was needed with his little tiny feet and that's why he could rip so much on a shorter ski. Supposedly he was a phenomenal skateboarder back in the day also. So some of it is the Indian also. Anyways...
 

pykie87

Booting up
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Aug 22, 2018
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Melbourne, Australia
Out of curiosity, I measured from the floor to a bit under my chin standing in my socks and it comes out to just over 140cm cm. So that's starting to get into snow blade territory. I've tried to embrace shorter skis over the years but just couldn't bond with them. I think part of my problem is that most skis are designed and manufactured to be dialed around what size they will sell most skis in. Once you get into the shorter sizes then parameters like sidecut get well out of the optimal window for the design and intended use of the skis. So for years I skied 173 Bonafides, when ever I got on the next size down (what was it 166?) they lost some of that he rock solid stability in variable that I loved so much about those skis. Some of it might have been length, reduced effective edge etc, but some probably was the reduced radius as well.

One of the best skiers I have ever skied with had only one pair of skis... a pair of the older Kendo's and they were some where in the mid 160's in length. He was probably 5'10 or 11" and maybe 185 lbs. This dude ripped tight bumps, east coast trees, pow, groomers. He was a really good skier. He'd bring those short Kendo's out to Utah all the time and I'd ask him, what if you get a big pow day and your stuck on those short Kendo's, he just looked at me like what's the problem? Funny thing about this guy is he had the smallest feet I have ever seen on a grown man. I think they were size 6 and he said he had to get his shoes in the kids department. My theory is that he developed a superior sense of balance when he was growing up because it was needed with his little tiny feet and that's why he could rip so much on a shorter ski. Supposedly he was a phenomenal skateboarder back in the day also. So some of it is the Indian also. Anyways...

I just did the same thing with a tape measure and measured 174cm’s.

So there’s definitely a fair difference in height between us.

As for your bottom point, I don’t ski 160’s, but I’m kind of the same, you can adjust your technique to suit the conditions in most (not all) cases to make the shorter lengths work.

The stiffness of the ski overrides length and width for me for the most part.
 

Guy in Shorts

Tree Psycho
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Feb 27, 2016
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Killington
Height vs Weight charts are a great starting point for the clueless. Skill set and personal preference are the drivers for those that understand their needs and desires. Hanging around at my favorite ski shop last week I played salesman to an older guy that the wanted to buy the perfect ski for his wife. He was frustrated that there wasn’t a big neon sign on the perfect ski that he wanted to get for her.
 

mishka

Getting off the lift
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Jun 15, 2016
Posts
341
Better than average skier.....

What is the distinction between one’s height vs weight as regards ski length?

Ice vs Powder, tight Eastern trail vs Western bowl aside, what sets optimal ski length?

IMO nothing of this matter. More important find best ski for the skier regardless of those charts and suggestions.

In my experience designing and building skis. skiers with weight from 150 to 250 pounds ...from 5'3" to 6'5" tall .... boots from 275 to 340, 25 to 75 years old, all strong skiers and like same ski MR-95 which is a relatively stiff and 185 long.

I understand this is monkeywrench into standard approach to the subject.

I believe nothing else matter except..... you, your skis and amount fun you have on them
 
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