Drill Hands..Where do I put my freaking hands?

[Tricia]

Funny, reading this thread reminded me of an instructor for a women's clinic I was in 5 years ago. She said, "your dumb hands are fouling up your smart feet"
I promptly went into hand/pole drill mode.

 

[peterm]

Regarding pole straps, it seems that Harb isn't using his in at least some of that video. For example freeze at 2:47:


Lorenze seemed to be using his, but I couldn't tell for Deneen.

 

[Mendieta]

Funny, reading this thread reminded me of an instructor for a women's clinic I was in 5 years ago. She said, "your dumb hands are fouling up your smart feet"
I promptly went into hand/pole drill mode.

Yes. I am currently doing better with my feet than with my upper body. Chris Oggerino at Rose made a great point the other day, during a lesson. When my inside hand (and shoulder) fall back and I am asked to correct that, I need to focus on my pelvis even more than my hand. The hand is the aftermath. If my pelvis was quiet and the legs moving independently, this would be a non issue.

Focusing on keeping the hands in front is a bit of a carrot to keep the torso downhill. Another trick he showed me involves picking something downhill (a tree, a slow sign, etc), and considering it your public. Always face them

 

[skibob]

Yes. I am currently doing better with my feet than with my upper body. Chris Oggerino at Rose made a great point the other day, during a lesson. When my inside hand (and shoulder) fall back and I am asked to correct that, I need to focus on my pelvis even more than my hand. The hand is the aftermath. If my pelvis was quiet and the legs moving independently, this would be a non issue.

Focusing on keeping the hands in front is a bit of a carrot to keep the torso downhill. Another trick he showed me involves picking something downhill (a tree, a slow sign, etc), and considering it your public. Always face them

I find that my hands are better when I am going faster. When I am cruising or piddling around with the kids is when I find my hands working against me. I don't ski blazing fast ever, so that isn't an extreme thing.

 

[Josh Matta]

Regarding pole straps, it seems that Harb isn't using his in at least some of that video. For example freeze at 2:47:


Lorenze seemed to be using his, but I couldn't tell for Deneen.

He is not and his hands are moving much more than necessary because of not using straps.

 

[Nate Gardner]

Personally, I like some freedom of movement in my hands and pole swing as I feel if you are static in any one area you have the potential to be static in all areas. That said, that movement might be subtle. I may make a fast wrist move in short turns or bumps. I longer turns I will extend the duration of the pole swing to match the duration of the turn.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Sometimes I can "bundle" the movements of two body parts together, if I work with them long enough, one at a time. One gets embedded in muscle memory, and I "attach" the other, more difficult-to-embed movement to the first. But hands and feet are so far apart...........
The first time I was asked in a clinic to drag my poles, my entire turns fell apart. The physical sensations coming from the pole tips overpowered everything, and I couldn't manage my turns at all. I forgot how to ski. And I couldn't keep the poles vertical, much less keep the tips evenly pressured in the snow. I can do that drill now, but at first it was a doozy.

 

[Tricia]

Liquid Feet's post above is from the Upper Body Rotation thread as well as these posts quoted from the This is better Hand discussion.

I have been thinking about trying the following next season. A very effective drill for advanced skiers is the pole dragging drill where you try to maintain consistent tip pressure between the surface and both poles. I am thinking about bringing this to my beginner lessons. My theory is that if I give the student a set of "training wheels"... a set of tactile receptors with the ground, they can then focus more directly on what it take to steer the fronts. They will also have a constant sense of where their hands are so I don't have constantly scream "HANDS IN FRONT!!!". Don't know if it will work or not but we will see.

@JESinstr, have you ever taken an aerobics class? Or a line-dancing class?
In both of these there are movements that involve both the feet and the hands as the whole body moves in space (as in skiing).
Learning a new movement pattern in these classes involves learning something new with the hands and with the feet while traveling across the room.
Usually, students need to get the feet to do the new thing first, as they do need to keep up with the across-the-room travel.
Then they add the new hands movement.


My point is that most people can't focus consciously on doing something new with the feet and the hands at the same time. I've had difficulty using the pole drag if I also ask people to do something else with feet/legs at the same time. Focusing on the pole drag alone fills up their conscious brains. YMMV, however. Please report back!

@LiquidFeet & @JESinster I'm a believer that dumb hands can foul up smart feet.
The current things I'm working on have more to do with my hands/pole position, than my feet, but I'm feeling strength in my skiing.
I can't imagine concentrating on my feet and my hands at the same time.

 

[JESinstr]

Good points Ladies.

The problem with hands is that they are connected to (in males up to 40 pounds) a balance affecting arm mass that can easily influence (both positively and negatively) the mass of the core. Did you notice in Baw's video that the hands, ergo the arms were wrapped around the core mass effectively taking them out of the equation? IMO hand/arm position is a critical discipline up and down the ability scale. BTW I am not inferring that the hands/wrists/arms remain tense or locked in place.

LF, I hear your point but what if anything would change if we tried to line dance out on an ice rink?
.
Tricia, you are right to work on hand/pole discipline. I would suspect that the strength you are experiencing is the feeling of being committed to the circular path you are trying to create. You are now more able to achieve and stay dynamically balanced with the turning forces as they develop and wain.

 

[T-Square]

Hand positioning, good question,

Hand position effects balance. Consider a tight or slack rope walker. Hands and arms are out. Many times they use a long pole. This is for stability. Now let's take that to skiing. A good starting position is with hands and arms in front as if holding a 3-4 foot diameter beach ball. A line traced between the elbows should just graze the belly button. In this position the hands should be in the skier's periferal vision.

From that starting position you can make pole flicks, touches, and plants easily. From here you can adjust your hand and arm position to what is comfortable. However, you should not loose sight of your hands. Again, this will vary with conditions and tactics.

If you want to play with balance and hand position try doing a 1000 step drill with your hands tight to your chest. Then try it with hands and arms wide spread. It will be much easier with your hands and arms spread. This is why we should ski with hands forward and spread.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Here's something that taught me the weight and impact of hands and arms. A guy named Ace was in a seasonal adult program with me back in the day. I learned something important from him, not from the instructor. He told me to do this on the nearly flat connector run just off the summit lift at Wildcat.
--Hold my hands behind my back, touching, with poles simply going along for the ride.
--Simply tip feet left-right, while keeping torso upright, not leaning. Don't do anything else.

I fell the first few times I tried this. Eventually I got the whole tipping at the ankles while standing over the skis thing dialed in.
I gained speed, of course, on that nearly flat section of connector trail.

As I came around the corner of the connector and encountered a wide run with a bit more pitch, I'd continue to gain speed and would move those hands and arms forward to help with my fore-aft balance. Right then I could really feel their weight. It was the right drill for me at the right time. Thank you, Ace.

(Funny how mining my memory to tell this story now illuminates the things I did not know back then when I was learning to balance without arms in play.)

 

[Tricia]

@Chris Geib can correct me if I'm wrong (he often does ) but I think he had me doing box drills. I found myself going back to them when I found myself getting a little off balance, and it worked.
There was an addition to the box drills, but I'm afraid I can't describe it well without miscommunication of what it really is.

 

[agreen]

I'm very interested in this topic especially in relation to mogul skiing. I see many good bumpers bring their hand in to the belly after the plant. For ex the cover of Dan Dipiro's book. But I was always taught to thrust the hand forward after the plant to keep your chest facing down hill. What are your thoughts on this? Thanks very much

 

[crgildart]

Keep your hands at 10 and 2 while driving. Keep your hands more around 9 and 3 or 8:30 and 3:30 skiing.

It's difficult to compare Daneen to folks skiing less aggressive bump lines because zipperheads ski with shorter poles. If you, or Harb or others try to ski the lines Daneen is skiing with regular length poles your hands and arms will be flailing all over the place up above your head because when you plant in top of a bump while being in the rut between them... get the picture?

 

[surfsnowgirl]

I work on keeping my hands at 8:30 and 3:30 particularly when I ski without poles. I've learned that being mindful of where my hands are is something that I'll likely always have to think of because the second my mind's not on it my hands often fall out of position.

 

[agreen]

Keep your hands at 10 and 2 while driving. Keep your hands more around 9 and 3 or 8:30 and 3:30 skiing.

It's difficult to compare Daneen to folks skiing less aggressive bump lines because zipperheads ski with shorter poles. If you, or Harb or others try to ski the lines Daneen is skiing with regular length poles your hands and arms will be flailing all over the place up above your head because when you plant in top of a bump while being in the rut between them... get the picture?

Not only do I get the picture, I've been the picture! Now I have adjustable poles and shorten them considerably when skiing bumps. 105-110 depending on the size. This helped me quite a bit with my hand position not getting too high and too aft.

 

[surfsnowgirl]

Not only do I get the picture, I've been the picture! Now I have adjustable poles and shorten them considerably when skiing bumps. 105-110 depending on the size. This helped me quite a bit with my hand position not getting too high and too aft.

I've just started skiing bumps this past season and am thinking about getting a pair of adjustable poles.

 

[Started at 53]

Keep your hands at 10 and 2 while driving. Keep your hands more around 9 and 3 or 8:30 and 3:30 skiing.

It's difficult to compare Daneen to folks skiing less aggressive bump lines because zipperheads ski with shorter poles. If you, or Harb or others try to ski the lines Daneen is skiing with regular length poles your hands and arms will be flailing all over the place up above your head because when you plant in top of a bump while being in the rut between them... get the picture?

I work on keeping my hands at 6:30 and 3:30 particularly when I ski without poles. I've learned that being mindful of where my hands are is something that I'll likely always have to think of because the second my mind's not on it my hands often fall out of position.

You guys are confusing me...
Normally 12 o'clock is straight ahead, and 6 o'clock is directly behind you

 

[surfsnowgirl]

You guys are confusing me...
Normally 12 o'clock is straight ahead, and 6 o'clock is directly behind you

Mine was a typo. I meant I keep my hands at 830 and 3:30. Sorry!!!!! I edited my post above to show the correct time.

 

[Crank]

Your hands are only really important in that keeping them forward helps you to focus your weight downhill where it needs to be.