Grooming techniques using a winch

[dbostedo]

I think I'm being taken too literally, sure you can probably groom most things but if it is a true black diamond then it should be steep and mean and ungroomed and left to those who can to figure it out. Perfectly manicured, mellow 'black' runs are just kind of sad and desperate marketing for wannabes. If it's not that steep then it can still qualify if there are rocks, trees, narrow, bumps etc to provide some natural challenges. They shouldn't be taken away.

I think you're missing the point... there is no such thing as a "true black diamond". There are small mid-western/southeastern/mid-Atlantic resorts where nothing would qualify as more than green at a big mountain. But they still have green, blue, and black runs - that's correct and how the system is supposed to work. The definitions are not absolute and are only about relative difficulty at that resort. Many resorts (including some I ski) don't have rocks, trees, narrows, or bumps - that's reality.

And even if you use a more big mountain based definition, I love groomers and steep black groomers. What's wrong with them? People enjoy sports in different ways. IMO, it's probably helpful to let everyone enjoy it in their own way. I don't know why it has to be sad - is it sad that I like steep groomers?

 

[James]

Anybody have pics or video of the winch cat cable attachment at the top of the hill? Is it a permanent installation? How big is the motor, and how is it synced with what the cat is doing?

Don't know why you'd waste another machine and driver on slopes you groom all the time, but I guess some do.
About the winch:
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The technology of the PistenBully 4.0 ton winch has inherent advantages

Four tons of pulling force (4.4 ton US), 1,050 meters of rope, and an extremely robust gearbox. The PistenBully winch maintains a constant pulling force that does not vary between first wrap and last. The “action” radius between the two multi groove capstan pulleys is constant regardless of how much rope is on the drum. The entire winch assembly is mounted on a turret that rotates 360°. This eliminates the need to monitor or compensate for rope twist on turnarounds. The operator never has to worry about sequencing his turnarounds to the left and right.

The active boom winch control that comes standard also ensures the optimum steering capability of the machine in difficult snow conditions. Selected steering parameters can be modified to accommodate the snow and slope conditions. The low-wear winch system and the high durability of the gear wheels and shaft bearings ensure long and safe usage with a low maintenance requirement.

High safety guaranteed

• Sophisticated control system for optimum steering behavior
• High capacity pump for winch drive
• Continuously variable rope pull control of 0 – 4.0 ton
• Individual pulling force setting
• Automatic level wind control, malfunction alerts
• Automatic rope monitoring for early detection of wire and strand breakages
• Emergency stop on the steering column
• Alarm signal when winch boom tilted
• Permanent display of remaining rope length

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https://www.pistenbully.com/usa/en/vehicles/alpine/400-4f.html

I guess Brits call them a "piste basher"

Fixed point at Alp D'Huez
youtu.be/fsUYSrdsW14

Sugarloaf 10 yrs ago

 

[markojp]

Anybody have pics or video of the winch cat cable attachment at the top of the hill? Is it a permanent installation? How big is the motor, and how is it synced with what the cat is doing?

At the local hill, there are several fixed attachment points and a couple of trees. One of the things we do with kids show them one, then see if they can find others during the day.

 

[Tom Holtmann]

Last winter at Grand Targhee a winch cable snapped and the cat went free falling down the slope. Luckily for the driver he hit a couple of small trees and deep snow that stopped him. I bet that woke him/her up.

 

[Jim McDonald]

 

[Jacob]

I think I'm being taken too literally, sure you can probably groom most things but if it is a true black diamond then it should be steep and mean and ungroomed and left to those who can to figure it out. Perfectly manicured, mellow 'black' runs are just kind of sad and desperate marketing for wannabes. If it's not that steep then it can still qualify if there are rocks, trees, narrow, bumps etc to provide some natural challenges. They shouldn't be taken away.

The thing you have to remember is that @James 's video is from Europe, where the grading system is different. Blues, reds, and blacks in Europe are all groomers, with blacks and reds being the slopes that WC courses are set up on in the places that host races.

So, none of the blacks in Europe match your description of a black. The terrain that does is the off-piste terrain just to the side of the groomers, which there is a ton of in the Alps. But, you ski it at your own risk, since a lot of it doesn't have any avi control done on it, and the hazards are usually not marked out (meaning you have to scope out the terrain yourself to see if there are any cliffs or terrain traps).

There are a few places that have a handful of marked trails that are not groomed, but they have a different marking on the map (yellow in Switzerland, black x's in France, black or red dashes with a diamond shape around the piste number in Austria). But for the most part, the terrain you're describing is unmarked in Europe.

 

[Wilhelmson]

There are plenty of reasons that diamond or double trails are groomed. Especially if they've been making snow. Might be interesting but it's sort of pointless to have a big whale in the middle of a 30 degree sheet of ice.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

I may be wrong in this but its my understanding that the winch cable is not because the cat needs to be pulled up the hill, the modern groomer is capable of climbing up any black pitch, the cable is there to keep the cat from 'skating' sideways down the hill. Basically it's a safety line.

At my resort the winch cat is anchored by a second groomer parked at the top of the slope being groomed, at least that's how I understand it's done.

uke

They can't drive up the hill while pushing snow with the blade. Also, the tracks can slip causing big holes. So you can groom without a winch, going uphill, but it won't come out as good.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

Ski Racing (when it was a print magazine) had an article about winching the Birds of Prey course. There were a couple of points where they had 3 or 4 cats linked together in order to groom where there were no fixed anchors. I believe they call the stationary groomer a "pick". At Stowe they will sometimes use a pick to winch middle National. The groomer basically buries itself and sinks the blade into the snow, the winch cat then hooks onto the blade like a mountaineering snow anchor. You can see the filled in hole in the morning.

 

[James]

Pisten Bully convoy in the high alpine Zürs, Austria.



"Stay out of the trees.."
This article was from 2003.
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“The cable broke and I went really fast down to the bottom,” Rakow says. “The cable was old. We usually keep track of the cable’s lifetime – about 400 hours.”

When the cable breaks you want to stay out of the trees, Dow adds.

Another safety concern is not for the cat driver, but for the unexpected skier who goes under the rope and misses the “Danger. Winch cable. Do not enter” sign.

“People just ski down like nothing and that cable can literally cut you in half,” Dow says.
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https://www.vaildaily.com/news/winc...ey-world-cup-downhill-course-in-beaver-creek/

Winch cat at Fernie. Buried log as anchor. I think that cat must be at least 10 yrs old with those sticks. Interesting that the constant tension winch technology was taken from tugboats back in the 80's.

 

[Paul Lutes]

I, for one, welcome the ascension of our groomer cat overlords.

Spent last week at Mammoth and really appreciated the grooming efforts under late Spring conditions. Discovered the "race course groom" vs the "ribby" recreational groom.

 

[LiquidFeet]

I, for one, welcome the ascension of our groomer cat overlords.

Spent last week at Mammoth and really appreciated the grooming efforts under late Spring conditions. Discovered the "race course groom" vs the "ribby" recreational groom.

Would you say more about that difference?

 

[James]

Probably has a lot to do with sll season conditions and a solid base.

 

[Paul Lutes]

Would you say more about that difference?

In addition to what James mentioned, the race course snow becomes much more dense after water and salt application through the season, but I'm guessing the biggest factor is just many more passes with the groomer. As near as I can tell, rec runs only get a single pass with the groomer. End result: race grooming has far fewer (if any) imperfections. It almost seems like they might use a a different tool/attachement blade that produces a smoother, non-corduroy surface. In the Spring I suspect the time of day/night a given slope/run is groomed can play a role as well e.g afternoon runs groomed while the snow is still heavily saturated and mushy doesn't groom the same as the last runs late at night that have cooled down, drained and partially set up.

So ....... it's complicated?

 

[dbostedo]

I would guess (and it's a complete guess) that they churn up the regular slope more before putting down the corduroy, where I'd think they just want to smooth and pack the race course, once they've done some consolidation and/or injection.

Here's an online brochure for a class offered by Pisten Bully on grooming race slopes. Kind of interesting/related to see how they talk about it : https://www.proacademy.info/usa/en/trainings/drivers/preparation-of-competition-slopes.html