Great graphics

[Steve]

These are of Alex Pinteraut from a Japanese site.

アレクシス・ピントロー（FRA）のGSテクニック | 伊藤知之のスキー通信

「Alexis PINTURAULTのGSテクニック」 大きな重心移動から深い内傾角を作りゲートへアタックするアレクシス・ピントロー。 その深い内傾角...

tiski.exblog.jp

The inclination at the beginning of the turn is obvious as is the new outside arm movement.

 

[geepers]

^^ Exactly what Tom Gellie is on about on his toppling in transition talks. If I understand correctly Alexis is releasing his upper body to topple into the new turn before there is any real move of the old outside (new inside) foot or knee.

 

[karlo]

These are of Alex Pinteraut from a Japanese site.

アレクシス・ピントロー（FRA）のGSテクニック | 伊藤知之のスキー通信

「Alexis PINTURAULTのGSテクニック」 大きな重心移動から深い内傾角を作りゲートへアタックするアレクシス・ピントロー。 その深い内傾角...

tiski.exblog.jp

The inclination at the beginning of the turn is obvious as is the new outside arm movement.

View attachment 107312

View attachment 107313 View attachment 107314

I see it, the COM relative to BoS. But, in what way does rasing the arm facilitate that? It isn't obvious to me how raising the arm changes the relationship.

 

[Bad Bob]

Think it is more about the dropping of the arm in No's 7&8. That moves helps to lock the weight and pressure onto the outside ski. Raising the arm would aid in taking pressure off of that ski.

Even recreational skiers can find use for the move. If you are loosing the edge in a turn and skiding out drop the outside hand to reengage the edges. Learned that little jewel of a trick from Andel Molitier in the early 60's at a race camp. Still works and use it when needed.

 

[Steve]

Between 7 and 9 the arm moves a lot, like a punch.

 

[LiquidFeet]

I see it, the COM relative to BoS. But, in what way does rasing the arm facilitate that? It isn't obvious to me how raising the arm changes the relationship.

Raising the arm tilts the torso downhill into the new turn faster than muscles attached to the torso alone ever could. The arm has weight. You're swinging that weight upwards (think swing weight), with the pivot point at the shoulder. It brings the torso with it and gets the skier "upside down" at the top of the turn fast.

The fast toppling effect can be accomplished without the backwards component of the arm swing. That backwards movement works to help get the new inside half of the torso positioned forward. That forwardness is at its maximum at the gate. The backwards rotation of that arm with the shoulder as the pivot point helps get the torso positioned in its "counter" faster than simply using the core muscles.

The whole swimming arm thing is about speed when carving. I can't see how it would help much in trees or bumps, and I certainly won't be doing that in those conditions. Do recreational skiers need this movement in their tool box? Nope. Unless they want to impress onlookers with their hip on snow at the fall line. I'd recommend empty slopes for this type of carving exhibition.

 

[James]

If I understand correctly Alexis is releasing his upper body to topple into the new turn before there is any real move of the old outside (new inside) foot or knee.

I dislike the term “toppling”. Trees and buildings topple. There’s nothing passive about these moves.
The new outside arm goes up partly due to forces going through the body. Beyond me to explain it, but we’ve been over that before.

If I understand correctly Alexis is releasing his upper body to topple into the new turn before there is any real move of the old outside (new inside) foot or knee.

OMG! You mean he doesn’t have to flex to release?? Where’s that coach from Europe who was on here last season?

 

[mike_m]

This has been said many times before, but please be careful extrapolating one photo, or series of photos in montage, of World Cup skiers going around a gate as the definitive fundamental technique. In the photos cited, Pinturault chooses to use a Whitepass turn (keeping weight on the old outside ski until after he is heading downhill) as a tactic to set himself up for the next gate. If you watch other video of him, he chooses to flex to release and establish grip on the new outside ski before, or just starting, downhill. I would venture to say that this is generally accepted (at this time) as the most efficient and effective technique to start most turns (subject to change depending on terrain or intent). If you look at the video below, starting at 3:14, you will see a good illustration of this in action. It's always ideal to have different arrows in the quiver to adapt technique as needed in a given circumstance, but the adaptation probably shouldn't be the default.

 

[geepers]

This has been said many times before, but please be careful extrapolating one photo, or series of photos in montage, of World Cup skiers going around a gate as the definitive fundamental technique. In the photos cited, Pinturault chooses to use a Whitepass turn (keeping weight on the old outside ski until after he is heading downhill) as a tactic to set himself up for the next gate. If you watch other video of him, he chooses to flex to release and establish grip on the new outside ski before, or just starting, downhill. I would venture to say that this is generally accepted (at this time) as the most efficient and effective technique to start most turns (subject to change depending on terrain or intent). If you look at the video below, starting at 3:14, you will see a good illustration of this in action. It's always ideal to have different arrows in the quiver to adapt technique as needed in a given circumstance, but the adaptation probably shouldn't be the default.

Didn't see this as a whitepass turn. From frames 3 through 6 I doubt the old inside ski leaves the snow as per a new inside ski turn but the snow has been removed in image processing so that's not definite.

Take your point on not using one turn of one skier to create a general rule. However this idea of the upper body being released (with or without lateral arm swing) to begin the toppling into the new turn is one Tom Gellie refers to in a number of his vids. You've mentioned that you had Tom for a week at Rookies - he didn't mention it at the time? Or it came with a different context?

I dislike the term “toppling”. Trees and buildings topple. There’s nothing passive about these moves.
The new outside arm goes up partly due to forces going through the body. Beyond me to explain it, but we’ve been over that before.

If we move our CoM from the inside of one turn to the inside of the new turn then we have to be unbalanced laterally for at least a few hundredths of a second (more for slow old people like me). Of course it's the result of active movements. What other word suits better than toppling? Falling?

 

[James]

What other word suits better than toppling? Falling?

Good question. Things that topple are static, then fall over. Just because it’s one word and easy doesn’t make it good. Wonder what they say in German.
Moving into the new turn; falling into the future; crossover; crossunder...

 

[geepers]

Good question. Things that topple are static, then fall over. Just because it’s one word and easy doesn’t make it good. Wonder what they say in German.
Moving into the new turn; falling into the future; crossover; crossunder...

Well, you know German - the Lego language. They'll just string words together until they get an outcome.

Flugzeug - a flying thing

Segelflugzeug - a flying thing with no engine that floats in the air. Or sailplane for short.

Maybe we could use "durchfall" - through-fall. Then again perhaps not....

 

[KingGrump]

What other word suits better than toppling? Falling?

Toppling and falling convey an absence of control.

 

[cantunamunch]

Except in things like guillotines and diesel pile drivers.

 

[KingGrump]

Except in things like guillotines and diesel pile drivers.

Those are guided.

 

[cantunamunch]

If we can accept that things such as yo-yos, guillotines, pile hammers, can be guided in a fall, why not torsos?

 

[jimtransition]

What other word suits better than toppling? Falling?

Inclination seems to be an accurate and well established description of that movement.

 

[geepers]

Toppling and falling convey an absence of control.

Only if allowed to go too far. We're pretty good at catching ourselves. Generally.

Also see comments by Ron le Master below....

Inclination seems to be an accurate and well established description of that movement.

Toppling seems to get used as well.

Ron le Master 2014.

But here's the thing - don't care what it's called. Just want more of it.

 

[KingGrump]

"Toppling" and "Controlled Toppling." paint different images in the mind.

 

[LiquidFeet]

"Toppling" and "Controlled Toppling." paint different images in the mind.

My visualization for this difference is an elevator dropping because the cables have been cut vs an elevator going down because it was commanded to do so.

In the deep dark EpicSki past I read advice to "relax" the new inside leg totally, all at once, in order to let your body drop as if your leg was shot out from under you. This was before I figured out how to do it. I've never been able to embrace that metaphor. I prefer dropping floors via an elevator. That's how I learned the flex-to-release movement.

 

[James]

Definition of topple
intransitive verb:
to fall from or as if from being top-heavy
-www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/topple

Elevators don’t topple, they descend.
You’re talking controlled descent versus falling.
I bet you can’t find one use of that word ‘topple’ in an elevator company’s literature. I’m sure they avoid ‘falling’ too, lol.

The people obsessed with flex to release love the word toppling because it implies that’s all you do and everything happens.

No, that's not LeMaster.

If we can accept that things such as yo-yos, guillotines, pile hammers, can be guided in a fall, why not torsos?

I suppose that's why LeMaster called it “controlled toppling”.