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Gas pedalling

Noodler

Sir Turn-a-lot
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Oct 4, 2017
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Denver, CO
You have clearly shown initiative as a DIY'r. Your posts indicate that you want to get "control" over this situation. It sucks dealing with injuries and I can totally relate to where you're at. So there's a lot to unpack here, but let's distill the situation down to the basic components.

First, don't conflate what's happening inside your boot to what needs to get done on the outside. Yes, they're inextricably linked, but you must attack them separately and in the right order. As @pliny the elder previously noted, your dorsiflexion issues due to the fused ankle must be addressed inside the boot via modifications to the bootboard ramp and/or forward lean of the boot (don't be concerned about the fore/aft balance yet). To do this correctly you need a goniometer (or a simple digital angle protractor) to measure the angle between your foot and shin when the ankle joint it is fully closed. We need to know this angle in order to compare it to what we have in the boot (the net angle between the bootboard and forward lean of the cuff). So let's get started...

The goal when measuring the angle between your foot and shin is to capture the measurement while you are doing a "toe raise". It's not the angle formed when driving your knee forward while your foot is on the floor. We want to measure how "closed" you can get the ankle joint purely through raising your toes. The critical "surfaces" of your body that interface with the boot are used for this measurement. The "points" are the bottom of your foot and the front of your shin. So those are the references for where to measure this angle. You want the angle formed from the bottom of your foot to the front of your shin.

Measuring the angle in the boot can be challenging. Luckily my digital protractor has a "hold" function that let's me stick it inside the boot and get a measurement. Put one arm along the bootboard and the other arm against the front of the boot cuff. Then you hit the hold button and you can pull the protractor out of the boot and read the measurement. This is the net angle formed between the bootboard and the cuff (it's not the forward lean measurement of the boot). Note that I measure the angles referenced from a 90* right angle (this is the same way all boot manufacturers state their forward lean angles). Since you have heel lifts, you should measure with them and without just to see what impact they have on this measurement.

Hopefully with your fused ankle you can get a setup where the measured angle between your foot and shin is GREATER than the net bootboard to cuff boot angle. For example, my left ankle measures at 20* and my right at 17* (yes, I'm dealing with an old injury too). My recommendation is that you have at least 2*-3* less angle at the boot. My boots (different pairs) are setup between 14*-16* (it's the best I could do without major surgery on some of my boots). The boot angle needs to leave enough "room" to dorsiflex your foot a few more degrees so that you can press the top of your foot into the roof of the boot. This also impacts your ability to apply pressure to the front of the boot. If you've exhausted your dorsiflexion RoM before your shin hits the front of the cuff, you're going to have some difficulty skiing well. I know you have a heel lift inside the boots to help "open up" the net angle, but now you have some "hard measurements" to help you determine if you have too much lift inside the boot or not enough. Note that modifying the boot forward lean is also an option to achieve the boot net angle you need. Heel lifts aren't the only way. There is a difference in the end result (between modifying FL versus a heel lift), but I haven't experimented with these variables enough to fully understand the implications.

Once you have the dorsiflexion component handled, you can move on to the fore/aft alignment concern. I think you already know that you can modify this angle both by raising the toes and/or lowering the heels. This can be accomplished by doing so on the outside of the boot (sole plating and grinding) and at the binding. You noted MacPhail's determination of 3* net ramp as being optimal, but I believe it may be even less than that. I currently have my different pairs of boot set at between 1.1* - 2.8*. The variance is due to the fact that bootboard modifications directly impact boot fit. So you have to be careful that you don't screw up the fit while striving for improved alignment. My net ramp was over 5* on all of my boots before I started experimenting with the gas pedaling. What this tells me is that even 1* of change is quite consequential.

Note that I used a combination of grinding down the heels and building up the toes (plating) to achieve my desired fore/aft alignment. I built shims that were installed on top of the lugs and also acquired/built my own boot lug routering table. This took a lot of work. Not something I would expect from typical skiers, but if you're so inclined it's certainly within the realm of possibility.
 
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Thread Starter
TS
surfandski

surfandski

Out on the slopes
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Mar 5, 2017
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708
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Clearwater Beach, Fl and Pisgah Forest, NC
You have clearly shown initiative as a DIY'r. Your posts indicate that you want to get "control" over this situation. It sucks dealing with injuries and I can totally relate to where you're at. So there's a lot to unpack here, but let's distill the situation down to the basic components.

First, don't conflate what's happening inside your boot to what needs to get done on the outside. Yes, they're inextricably linked, but you must attack them separately and in the right order. As @pliny the elder previously noted, your dorsiflexion issues due to the fused ankle must be addressed inside the boot via modifications to the bootboard ramp and/or forward lean of the boot (don't be concerned about the fore/aft balance yet). To do this correctly you need a goniometer (or a simple digital angle protractor) to measure the angle between your foot and shin when the ankle joint it is fully closed. We need to know this angle in order to compare it to what we have in the boot (the net angle between the bootboard and forward lean of the cuff). So let's get started...

The goal when measuring the angle between your foot and shin is to capture the measurement while you are doing a "toe raise". It's not the angle formed when driving your knee forward while your foot is on the floor. We want to measure how "closed" you can get the ankle joint purely through raising your toes. The critical "surfaces" of your body that interface with the boot are used for this measurement. The "points" are the bottom of your foot and the front of your shin. So those are the references for where to measure this angle. You want the angle formed from the bottom of your foot to the front of your shin.

Measuring the angle in the boot can be challenging. Luckily my digital protractor has a "hold" function that let's me stick it inside the boot and get a measurement. Put one arm along the bootboard and the other arm against the front of the boot cuff. Then you hit the hold button and you can pull the protractor out of the boot and read the measurement. This is the net angle formed between the bootboard and the cuff (it's not the forward lean measurement of the boot). Note that I measure the angles referenced from a 90* right angle (this is the same way all boot manufacturers state their forward lean angles). Since you have heel lifts, you should measure with them and without just to see what impact they have on this measurement.

Hopefully with your fused ankle you can get a setup where the measured angle between your foot and shin is GREATER than the net bootboard to cuff boot angle. For example, my left ankle measures at 20* and my right at 17* (yes, I'm dealing with an old injury too). My recommendation is that you have at least 2*-3* less angle at the boot. My boots (different pairs) are setup between 14*-16* (it's the best I could do without major surgery on some of my boots). The boot angle needs to leave enough "room" to dorsiflex your foot a few more degrees so that you can press the top of your foot into the roof of the boot. This also impacts your ability to apply pressure to the front of the boot. If you've exhausted your dorsiflexion RoM before your shin hits the front of the cuff, you're going to have some difficulty skiing well. I know you have a heel lift inside the boots to help "open up" the net angle, but now you have some "hard measurements" to help you determine if you have too much lift inside the boot or not enough. Note that modifying the boot forward lean is also an option to achieve the boot net angle you need. Heel lifts aren't the only way. There is a difference in the end result (between modifying FL versus a heel lift), but I haven't experimented with these variables enough to fully understand the implications.

Once you have the dorsiflexion component handled, you can move on to the fore/aft alignment concern. I think you already know that you can modify this angle both by raising the toes and/or lowering the heels. This can be accomplished by doing so on the outside of the boot (sole plating and grinding) and at the binding. You noted MacPhail's determination of 3* net ramp as being optimal, but I believe it may be even less than that. I currently have my different pairs of boot set at between 1.1* - 2.8*. The variance is due to the fact that bootboard modifications directly impact boot fit. So you have to be careful that you don't screw up the fit while striving for improved alignment. My net ramp was over 5* on all of my boots before I started experimenting with the gas pedaling. What this tells me is that even 1* of change is quite consequential.

Note that I used a combination of grinding down the heels and building up the toes (plating) to achieve my desired fore/aft alignment. I built shims that were installed on top of the lugs and also acquired/built my own boot lug routering table. This took a lot of work. Not something I would expect from typical skiers, but if you're so inclined it's certainly within the realm of possibility.

Thanks for that information Noodler! Anything inside the boot I'm leaving to a boot fitter and that's somewhat defined by having enough heel lift to open up my ankle so that I have room to flex before hitting the end of my ROM. I have virtually no dorsiflexion and really, anything I have is really coming from the bones in my foot rather than tibia/talus. Now that the plates and screws are out, if I can reduce that heel lift at all without hitting the end of my ROM, I'll continue to shave that down as even a couple of millimeters will reduce the massive ramp angle I have and reduce how much I need to gas pedal.
 

Noodler

Sir Turn-a-lot
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Denver, CO
Thanks for that information Noodler! Anything inside the boot I'm leaving to a boot fitter and that's somewhat defined by having enough heel lift to open up my ankle so that I have room to flex before hitting the end of my ROM. I have virtually no dorsiflexion and really, anything I have is really coming from the bones in my foot rather than tibia/talus. Now that the plates and screws are out, if I can reduce that heel lift at all without hitting the end of my ROM, I'll continue to shave that down as even a couple of millimeters will reduce the massive ramp angle I have and reduce how much I need to gas pedal.

When you state that you "have virtually no dorsiflexon" I wonder exactly what you mean. Are you saying that you cannot raise your toes at all past the point from having a right angle between the foot and the leg? I assume you can still point your toes (extend/open the ankle joint) and then flex the ankle to close the joint. Or are you stating that you have no fore/aft adjustment movement at all in your ankle joint?
 
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surfandski

surfandski

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Here are some pics. When your ankle is fused, they completely remove all cartilage with a grinder of sorts and then screw your tibia to your talus to where they become one bone so there is zero dorsiflexion in that joint. There are a lot of bones in your foot so you can simulate some flexion but it is all happening below that joint. Here are some pics.
IMG_20191212_114024237.jpg
IMG_20191212_114327136.jpg
IMG_20191212_114210592.jpg
IMG_20191212_114203961.jpg
 

James

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What’s it like to walk? I take it running is out.
 
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surfandski

surfandski

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First pic is me trying to lift my toes as much as possible with my knee directly over my talus/bottom of my tibia. As you can see, I barely can get it off the ground at all and I honestly think the surgeon fixed the angle to 91-93° inspite of me telling him to make it an acute ankle for skiing.

Pictures 2 and 3 are showing me trying to raise my toes and then pointing my toes. the bones in my foot allow me to point it a lot more than I can raise which again makes me think he fused just at or past 90°. The amazing thing is that I walk without any limp now at virtually no pain so maybe he was right in erring on that side but it sure isn't an ideal setup for skiing. On groomers I've adapted to where you'd have no idea I have a fused ankle but certainly I'm not the skier I once was and never will be but I can still charge.

The 4th pic is showing the difference between my two ankles.
 
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surfandski

surfandski

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What’s it like to walk? I take it running is out.

Walking is great on flat ground and hiking down hill isn't that bad but up hill is tough especially when I have a 50lb kayak on my shoulder hiking in or out of rivers. Going up hill every step I can only pivot off of the ball of my foot and with very little propulsion from my calf so my good leg does all of the work going up hill. I still kayak several days a week but some of the trails are brutal so it's got to be some quality class IV-V whitewater for me to do some of the hikes.

Running is really tough and I bet I could do it if I trained but it would put a lot of stress on all of the other joints in my foot and promote arthritis. So I don't run at all.

MTBing and cycling is no problem at all.
 

Noodler

Sir Turn-a-lot
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Wow, I understand now. Thanks for posting the pics and info.

I would think you would be best served to setup both boots as upright as possible (low FL) as a starting point and then tune the fore/aft balance at the sole and/or bindings. I'm not super familiar with the Lange you're in, but if your fitter can reduce the FL you may not need the heel lifts at all.

If it were me, I wouldn't want my setup to be vastly different on each side. Although what counts is the symmetry of the end result; your actual skiing.
 
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surfandski

surfandski

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It's interesting because the Boot fitter in Breck said -after continuing to increase my heel lift to pretty much the limit of what would fit in the boot- that if I needed to open up the ankle more, he'd have to modify the cuff to make it more upright. I imagine he means grinding down the bottom of the cuff so that it can be rotated more upright. I didn't want to permanently butcher my boots especially because the 2 bolts in the back would be tough because it wouldn't change enough to redrill new holes and if you oblong the holes, I don't know that they'd stay. I was able to make do with the heel lifts and even reduced them by about 5mm from 25 to 20 mm after getting all the hardware out.

To give you an idea of how little dorsiflexion I have, if I had a stock RS 130 boot with no heel lift, standing neutral in the boot's normal upright but forward stance, I'm about at the end of my ROM and just flexing in a stock boot makes the now single tibia/talus bone "bend" right where the ankle joint used to be. But with those 20 mm heel lifts, it opens my ankle to where I can actually flex the boot enough that I don't bottom out my ROM (even skiing bumps) unless it's a major unexpected bump like a g-out or flat landing a jump on firm snow (I don't go big any more unless it's soft snow).
 

cantunamunch

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@surfandski have you built a dryland front/back balance tester yet?

Either the seesaw or the soft foam block designs might be good to start/get an idea with?

FWIW, the other way to make the cuff more upright is to mould the cuff. No bolt shifting.
 
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surfandski

surfandski

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@surfandski have you built a dryland front/back balance tester yet?

Either the seesaw or the soft foam block designs might be good to start/get an idea with?

FWIW, the other way to make the cuff more upright is to mould the cuff. No bolt shifting.

I haven't yet because I figured there's no way I can get close to <3° even if I know it's ideal. My best scenario will be quite a bit more than that so I don't know if it's worth figuring out what "ideal" would be if I theoretically didn't have this injury. You think it's still worth doing? That's interesting about moulding the cuff. Is that something most boot fitters could do as that was not mentioned by the boot fitter I went to. At some point if you make the boot too upright, it's going to change the perceived stiffness I assume. So many variables....... Thanks for the input!
 

cantunamunch

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I think a dryland tester would give you a zone for your good foot and an idea of feasibility for the wonky one - and faster than messing with shims on snow. The 3° ideal - well one can find a centered balance even if that is not achieved.

I can't speak to most, certainly the good ones I know of can.
 
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surfandski

surfandski

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Just to show how there different boot fitters ideas are for fixing my situation, I've been in email communication with one fitter who said they'd go with external heel lifts rather than (or possibly in conjunction with) internal ones. If I understood them correctly, they were saying that you can either open up your ankle with internal heel lifts (which we've discussed), or with external ones by raising the heel binding instead of the heel inside the boot. Man, I'm not understanding how that would help as that sounds like it would make it worse. The cuff would be more forward giving my body more leverage and making the boots feel even softer. Has anyone heard of this technique before. Maybe if it was done in conjunction with modifying the cuff so that it was more upright. Hmmm.

I do think it would help if my cuff was more upright if they are able to do that by remolding it somehow. A slightly more upright cuff would allow me to reduce the internal lift somewhat which would make it so that I don't have to go too crazy gas pedaling that ankle. A combination of those may make it to where a 10 mm shim under that toe binding could get me to a reasonable delta angle on that ankle and I already know I can get there with my good one with only a 6.5 mm or so shim.
 
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surfandski

surfandski

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@surfandski have you built a dryland front/back balance tester yet?

Either the seesaw or the soft foam block designs might be good to start/get an idea with?

FWIW, the other way to make the cuff more upright is to mould the cuff. No bolt shifting.

Do you know what the technique is for remoulding the cuff? It's not something I would do but I plan to visit a boot fitter when I first get out West in Jan and would like to discuss various options. Is it a matter of heating up the boot and somehow cranking on it backwards until the spine of the cuff moves back? From what I've heard the plastic in the RS 130 is very rubbery and has a very good memory so it takes very good technique just to hold a punch without it going back over time. Thanks!
 

Mike King

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It's interesting because the Boot fitter in Breck said -after continuing to increase my heel lift to pretty much the limit of what would fit in the boot- that if I needed to open up the ankle more, he'd have to modify the cuff to make it more upright. I imagine he means grinding down the bottom of the cuff so that it can be rotated more upright. I didn't want to permanently butcher my boots especially because the 2 bolts in the back would be tough because it wouldn't change enough to redrill new holes and if you oblong the holes, I don't know that they'd stay. I was able to make do with the heel lifts and even reduced them by about 5mm from 25 to 20 mm after getting all the hardware out.

To give you an idea of how little dorsiflexion I have, if I had a stock RS 130 boot with no heel lift, standing neutral in the boot's normal upright but forward stance, I'm about at the end of my ROM and just flexing in a stock boot makes the now single tibia/talus bone "bend" right where the ankle joint used to be. But with those 20 mm heel lifts, it opens my ankle to where I can actually flex the boot enough that I don't bottom out my ROM (even skiing bumps) unless it's a major unexpected bump like a g-out or flat landing a jump on firm snow (I don't go big any more unless it's soft snow).
Was the Breck fitter Jeff Bergeron? Not all boot fitters are equal...

Mike
 

Brian Finch

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39C30293-50D4-4616-A3F8-EDB76EB2E903.jpeg

Need a lil lift to gain clearance for the toes. I’ve not booted out, this season....yet.
 
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