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Eleeski

Making fresh tracks
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Nov 13, 2015
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San Diego / skis at Squaw Valley
The difference between Palisades on a day like last Sunday and a more typical dust on boilerplate winter day takes an incredible technical and unforgiving extreme drop to being a reasonably comfortable steep challenge.

My brother who is an elite swimmer and waterskier can follow us down Squaw's traditional challenges (west face and broken arrow) when the snow is right. Otherwise we struggle to pick our way down Shirley.

Conditions matter! More than steepness (or even bumps).

Eric
 

Paul Shifflet

Booting up
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Not really absolute - my assessment was still relative to big mountains I've skied out west, not any true absolute. And no, marking a mountain like Whitetail as almost all blue is not real useful. It's definitely useful to a lot of skiers to know that the "double black" run is somewhat harder than the "single black" run - even if neither is all that hard.

It was definitely useful to me before when I was a much worse skier. A lot of undifferentiated blue runs would have been more difficult to navigate/understand. (Though I'm biased by having grown up skiing in the mid-A. Obviously in some places that "difficulty" such as it is, already exists - the variety of blue runs someplace like Vail or Snwomass probably encompasses the difficulty level of most of the blue and black runs in the mid-Atlantic.)

I guess to my thinking, you don't want a whole lot of colors, because that's confusing and hard to communicate. But you also don't want such broad colors that you wind up with mountains of a single color, because that's not helpful. So you wind up with what we have - 3 colors that always have the same general meaning, but with the specifics determined locally.

Whitetail is not a steep mountain. If you compare that mountain to a steep mountain out west then you might have a case. Snowmass is not a steep mountain. To say that blues there encompasses black in the mid-atlantic is purely psychological. The lower part of Exhibition is steeper than any blue at Snowmass. The pitch is somewhat equivalent if not steeper than Garrett Gulch, a black diamond at Snowmass. Many other mid-atlantic resorts have steeper runs than Whitetail. If you look at the Face at Wisp not far from D.C., it would be solidly black at Snowmass in regards to pitch. It may even be the steepest black. They use a winch to groom it. The pitches are short, but if you factor in snow conditions and mogul sizes, many blacks in the mid-Atlantic are easily comparable if not more difficult than blacks at Snowmass. Besides measuring these slopes, I've also had little kids at both these areas in a single season, and the kids were so much more competent on the blacks in general at Snowmass than the blacks in the mid-Atlantic largely because of the snow conditions. Green, blue, and black are pretty similar east and west. Double black in the mid-atlantic is just a sham. If you count them as blacks, which they should be, then blacks east and west are even more comparable. Double blacks out west are truly steeper and more difficult than anything in the mid-atlantic.

At these mid-atlantic resorts it's a common experience to get on a lift and have someone feel it's necessary to convince you that they've done real skiing out West. It's kind of like a rite of passage for someone to tell you that you really haven't experienced skiing until you've gone out west, and they can enlighten you. Having lived and skied many seasons in both areas, it got kind of old in the mid-atlantic to hear at the beginning of every conversation about skiing, "Have you skied out West?" I swear people try to preempt each other expounding on the superiority of Western skiing. Definitely, Western skiing is so much better. I'd get on a plane to ski out there, but never vice versa. Still though, with this culture, there's a mythology that's built up that goes beyond reason. The relative difficulty of green, blue, and black slopes is one of them.
 

Seldomski

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'mericuh
Folks can plainly see what they are skiing, can judge how much harder or easier a run they need to find, and need to take responsibility for what they get themselves into.

This doesn't work if you are planning a trip to somewhere with never-ever or true beginner skiers. This is why I think there is value in standardizing beginner terrain markings. With the system in US as-is, you need to do more digging to discover what is actual beginner terrain. You need to talk to someone who has been there, or call the resort. Of course the resort is going to say - 'Yeah we have that, come take a lesson.'
 
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James

James

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you need to do more digging to discover what is actual beginner terrain.
Oh the horror. Where is this not true for any kind of travel? I'm still in favor of a beginner standard and low level green standard. It's low hanging fruit. Areas don't want to because many would fail. Then what? It requires moving dirt at the very least which few want to do.

Even in the east there are mountains which are much better setup for beginners. Not sure people realize this, but many places you don't need a lift ticket to ride the beginner lifts.
 

Wilhelmson

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The system is fine for the most part besides a few outliers than could remark a few trails. Palisades seems like a good example. Tramline at Cannon is a single black and there's no way any inexperienced black diamond skier should attempt it. They do have warning signs

Sometimes the problem with green trails is that leaving the lift there is a pitch that gets windblown ice or chopped up from all the traffic and beginners snowplowing. A fall on ice here can ruin the run or the rest of the day for a timid beginner.

When my kids were younger I would sometimes check out the conditions on a black diamond to make sure it wasn't a rocky icy mess before we all went down on the next run. Might still do it for my daughter before taking a double black that you can't see from the lift or if we went out west.
 
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surfsnowgirl

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I like what Killington has done with the tunnels to corral the beginners a bit better. I think it works well. The only problem with that set up is I don't believe it was finished last season so what used to be a black trail was made a blue. Something to do with the rerouting wasn't entirely complete so last season found a lot of folks who thought they were getting on a blue trail and there was often carnage everywhere. I mean Mouse trap its an easier black but I think that was a misfire on Killington. I think that'll all be sorted by this coming season. I do agree that some mountains are much better suited to beginner skiers than others. Bromley and Mount Snow are examples that come to mind of mountains that have their blacks in a separate area so you can't accidentally go down one. Magic is pretty much that way too but there are a handful of blacks on the east side but they are easily avoidable.
 

zircon

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I can’t believe it’s not England!
The only problem with that set up is I don't believe it was finished last season so what used to be a black trail was made a blue. Something to do with the rerouting wasn't entirely complete so last season found a lot of folks who thought they were getting on a blue trail and there was often carnage everywhere.

:eek: This sounds potentially dangerous. I encountered what's probably a similar trail at Sunday River this winter. Bear Paw, off the White Cap Quad. Theoretically a green, but very twisty and narrow and IMO trickier than the blues on either side. But someone wanted to be able to say there was a beginner-friendly route from the White Cap lodge to the condos, I guess.
 

crgildart

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At these mid-atlantic resorts it's a common experience to get on a lift and have someone feel it's necessary to convince you that they've done real skiing out West. It's kind of like a rite of passage for someone to tell you that you really haven't experienced skiing until you've gone out west, and they can enlighten you. Having lived and skied many seasons in both areas, it got kind of old in the mid-atlantic to hear at the beginning of every conversation about skiing, "Have you skied out West?" I swear people try to preempt each other expounding on the superiority of Western skiing. Definitely, Western skiing is so much better. I'd get on a plane to ski out there, but never vice versa. Still though, with this culture, there's a mythology that's built up that goes beyond reason. The relative difficulty of green, blue, and black slopes is one of them.

Ya, get that in the midwest too. Just once I'd like to fake my way through a response of "pfft that's nothing compared to Europe just to top the elitist West supremacy BS..
 

Lauren

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I encountered what's probably a similar trail at Sunday River this winter. Bear Paw, off the White Cap Quad. Theoretically a green, but very twisty and narrow and IMO trickier than the blues on either side. But someone wanted to be able to say there was a beginner-friendly route from the White Cap lodge to the condos, I guess.

This is a new trail...we call it "Pig Pen". We didn't know the name when they first cut it, so took the liberty to name it ourselves, and it has since stuck with the group I ski with.

SR used to have a green cut over...across one of the blue trails and across the race course, where it wound down to the base. They closed the cut over, leaving no green way down, so they cut the new trail.

Gould Academy (private high school in Bethel that has a huge race program) has been funding for a surface lift (t-bar) to serve the race course for a few years now, the plan is to put it in next to the race course which would go right over the cross over. By law, you're not allowed to have any trails intersecting surface lift lines (unless they're grandfathered in).

The White Cap lift is the one that serves the hotel to get to the rest of the mountain. I doubt it would go over well to have no green trail from the hotel to the main base areas. But I completely agree that it could easily be considered more difficult than the blue trail next to it, even though it's less steep.
 

Wilhelmson

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This sounds potentially dangerous. I encountered what's probably a similar trail at Sunday River this winter. Bear Paw, off the White Cap Quad. Theoretically a green, but very twisty and narrow and IMO trickier than the blues on either side. But someone wanted to be able to say there was a beginner-friendly route from the White Cap lodge to the condos, I guess.

I don't think I skied that but I believe you because a windy trail between two blues would logically be a blue. Maybe they tried to mellow the pitch by adding switchbacks.

upload_2019-6-13_13-4-32.png
 

Marker

Making fresh tracks
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Kennett Square, PA & Killington, VT
I like what Killington has done with the tunnels to corral the beginners a bit better. I think it works well. The only problem with that set up is I don't believe it was finished last season so what used to be a black trail was made a blue. Something to do with the rerouting wasn't entirely complete so last season found a lot of folks who thought they were getting on a blue trail and there was often carnage everywhere. I mean Mouse trap its an easier black but I think that was a misfire on Killington. I think that'll all be sorted by this coming season..
This year I saw a lot of double ejections on the old Mouse Trap, now Bunny Buster (both apt names for the unsuspecting beginner or intermediate), which often gets/is left bumped up on the skier's right. Fun stuff for me to practice on, but lots of folks were really struggling there since it was downgraded to a blue from black. Even the left side when groomed is steep for a intermediate blue, but pretty short. I don't think they are taking back to a black from its current blue designation.
 

surfsnowgirl

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This year I saw a lot of double ejections on the old Mouse Trap, now Bunny Buster (both apt names for the unsuspecting beginner or intermediate), which often gets/is left bumped up on the skier's right. Fun stuff for me to practice on, but lots of folks were really struggling there since it was downgraded to a blue from black. Even the left side when groomed is steep for a intermediate blue, but pretty short. I don't think they are taking back to a black from its current blue designation.

That's a bummer and a disservice to the unprepared skier who goes down it. I love mouse trap and those bumps are fun. If it's even a tiny bit icy I tend to axoid it because with floundering bodies around me it becomes dangerous. They should have kept it a black because if you ski down past the entrance you can go down chute which can be challenging but it's perhaps a hell of a lot easier. Or continue on great northern.
 
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Lauren

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The outcome is a certain luge track-like quality that has no business on a green rated trail.

I wish they'd bank the corners on that trail...now that would be fun. It's set up for a perfect banked slalom. But of course that would be considered "features", and would need to sport an orange oval.
 

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