Fore and Aft Balance Point

[L&AirC]

I apologize ahead of time for the length. Won't be offended if you don't read the whole thing. The bottom line question is how can you tell how much of a shim to post on the zeppa board toe area to get forward. Trial and error? Is there a math equation (please let there be math)? Some way to measure it using plumb bob? I have some shims for this and am willing to play with it prior to going to a boot fitter to get it done permanently.

Here's the issue (long version).

I got new boots (fitted by GMOL - top 15 in America) at the end of last season and all and all, they are great. Lange RS 130. Not a lot of mods; cuffs aligned, 1 degree shim on right boot (lateral side), mold the liner, and one punch on the right ankle bone area (medial talus?) as it was painful. I'm also wishing I got the other one punched in the same area but it isn't near as bad. Just noticeable. Size 25.5. I did get new custom insoles as well (just because the previous one were a size smaller and have gone through some mods due to me putting on Hotronics).

Previously I was in Salomon XMax 120. Pretty much the same work and by GMOL but without the punch for the ankle bone. I did get a punch for my right foot's 1st metatarsal (the one for the big toe). size 24.5.

Also, on both pairs of boots, I modified the top of the cuff so the Booster strap lays flat and goes under the shell. I just trim down the plastic at the top of each side.

When I went to the Langes last season, fellow coaches pointed out I was more aft than I normally ski. Right, wrong or indifferent, because it was the end of the season and I didn't want to do another 3 hour drive (each way) to GMOL, after experimenting with removing bolts and unbuckling boots, I decided the fix was to soften the boot flex permanently and I cut the lower shell cuff. After that I get told that's much better and I'm skiing like I have been.

Fast forward to this season. I go spend a day skiing to knock the rust off and feel OK but also notice I have to pay attention to my fore and aft position, but again, all and all, feels good. A fellow coach happens to be around and stated it looked good but that is just from seeing me from the chair lift.

I then go to a two day Race Coach's event. I've been doing this every season for about 5 years and always ski at least one day with the same clinician. He knows me and how I ski. After day one he states that I'm skiing centered instead of forward at transition and describes this to me as coming out of the turn slightly aft and getting to centered at transition (i.e. I'm neutral in my cuff - no pressure on any side) and I should have some pressure against the boot tongue

(Side Note) - This is an epiphany for me as I thought your were supposed to be centered (cuff neutral) at transition. That's for a different thread.

I struggle to get more forward the remainder of the morning. Thinking the boots are still too stiff, that night I cut the lower shells down a little further. This seems to help and I'm skiing better, but the clinician and one of the other coaches (we were critiquing each other) state I still need to get more forward. Even with this, I can feel that it is better than the previous day and as there was a bit of hard pack and ice popping up, I have no issues with it and feel to have better control and skiing more powerfully.

At the end of the day, the clinician asks me if I have a fitter and to see him about working on my fore aft balance. Possibly posting the toe area to help me get forward. I have also noticed that though I can feel the tongue of the boot on my shin at transition and it feels like I'm crushing it as I go through the turn, it feels like there is only light contact with the ball of my foot against the boot. It's like the front cuff is preventing my from getting there. When I cut the shell the second time and flex the boot, I can see my knee come to just the front of the boot. I just can't get much pressure at the ball of my foot. It's as if there is a lightening at the ball of my foot as I close my ankle.

My thoughts are this is (at least) partially from using the muscles (tibialis anterior?) in my lower leg to close my ankle. Since I'm not forward enough, to close my ankle my foot is coming up some. If I was more forward, I would be able to close my ankle without the ball of my foot lightening and it would give more pressure there.

Your thoughts and recommendations are much appreciated.

Thanks,

Ken

 

[L&AirC]

Another thought on this is I also have the rear spoiler removed. Should one of the steps be to ski with it in and see what that yields? My leg fills the cuff but I'm sure I can get it to fit in.

 

[RuleMiHa]

Fore/Aft just doesn't seem to be something that most bootfitters (except our colleague here @bud heishman ) pay any attention to. The Lange boots have a 12* forward lean and what they call a more natural stance. However, if you are someone with long femurs, poor dorsiflexion, short shins, short torso, big b***, etc. you might actually need that forward lean and being in the Lange can cause big problems.

With my Lange's I experimented with adding spoiler's and ultimately ended up in a boot with 16* of forward lean. It sounds like you compensated for the decrease in forward lean by softening the boots so you can move them there but that creates the problem of a too soft boot. The other thing to check is the delta angle of the boot vs. the Salomon. Lange's have a boot delta of 4* along with the forward lean of 12*, so if you can find out what the angles of the Salomon's are you can try some math.

 

[RuleMiHa]

Another thought on this is I also have the rear spoiler removed. Should one of the steps be to ski with it in and see what that yields? My leg fills the cuff but I'm sure I can get it to fit in.

The key to doing this is to keep the lower buckle cinched to the same level while widening the upper cuff and adding the spoiler. That will push you more forward. If you just squeeze in the spoiler and squish your leg you won't necessarily move forward at all, you could just end up with dead leg (personal experience . I also keep my upper cuffs just a little looser so I can get some forward movement.

 

[L&AirC]

Fore/Aft just doesn't seem to be something that most bootfitters (except our colleague here @bud heishman ) pay any attention to. The Lange boots have a 12* forward lean and what they call a more natural stance. However, if you are someone with long femurs, poor dorsiflexion, short shins, short torso, big b***, etc. you might actually need that forward lean and being in the Lange can cause big problems.

With my Lange's I experimented with adding spoiler's and ultimately ended up in a boot with 16* of forward lean. It sounds like you compensated for the decrease in forward lean by softening the boots so you can move them there but that creates the problem of a too soft boot. The other thing to check is the delta angle of the boot vs. the Salomon. Lange's have a boot delta of 4* along with the forward lean of 12*, so if you can find out what the angles of the Salomon's are you can try some math.

I do have limited dorsiflexion. I'm not that concerned about the softening of the flex because I feel like that needed to happen anyways. They are still stiffer than the XMax 120s and offer better control.

 

[L&AirC]

I ran a couple experiments and though my methods might be a little crude, I came to the understanding that the Salomon XMax have at least 2 if not 3 more degrees of forward lean than the RS Langes.

I did things like wear one XMax and one Lange and click into my skis to feel the difference. I also used an iPhone I checked the forward lean of each boot. I get 12* for the Langes and depending where I positioned the phone, 14-16* on the XMax. Being conservative I'm calling it 14* giving me a 2* difference. I also did a side by side comparison of the boots and it is easy to see the XMax has more forward lean.

I originally considered adding something on the zeppa toe area, but RuleMiHa got me thinking about the Spoiler more so I went that route first.

In my Langes - one with a spoiler and one without, and clicked into my bindings, doing my best to keep my lower leg centered in the cuff, I measured the angle with my phone again by placing the phone along my shin bone as it is fairly straight ,with the phone resting on the top of the boot tongue (just to make sure I get the same spot on each side). The one with the spoiler gave my 2 more degrees of forward lean. This also put me in a position to much more easily flex the boot and I felt like I was more on top of it than coming up on it. Felt like I was top dead center instead of almost top dead center.

Lessons learned are check all non permanent options first; even if you don't think it's involved in the equation. Since I went to a stiffer boot, I and everyone I the other coaches I had talked to, assumed it was the stiffness and not the forward lean.

Even though I softened the flex, they are still on the stiff side for me (I'm normal size - 5'7") but had I checked the forward lean first, I might not have softened the flex. At least not right away. They are still stiffer than the XMax are.

Friday I will give it a run and if all works well, decide to keep the spoiler or go to the fitter and invest in getting it permanently posted. Right now the spoiler doesn't seem like it's going to bug me but that will change.

 

[PTskier]

A friend has ankles that mainly do not bend. The bootfitter I trust said that she would both shim the heel binding up and shim under his heel in the boot to get him balanced over the sweet spot on his skis. He has no other option. 3 piece boots like the Full Tilt or some Dalbello models might be needed to give him room for the heel lift.

"...using the muscles (tibialis anterior?) in my lower leg to close my ankle."
I've never understood this. We are built with strong hamstring muscles that can bring the feet back under (or behind) us. That is the easy, strong way to get the relative position of the body's center of mass over the skis' sweet spot. Why even think about small weak muscles to close the ankle?

 

[L&AirC]

A friend has ankles that mainly do not bend. The bootfitter I trust said that she would both shim the heel binding up and shim under his heel in the boot to get him balanced over the sweet spot on his skis. He has no other option. 3 piece boots like the Full Tilt or some Dalbello models might be needed to give him room for the heel lift.

"...using the muscles (tibialis anterior?) in my lower leg to close my ankle."
I've never understood this. We are built with strong hamstring muscles that can bring the feet back under (or behind) us. That is the easy, strong way to get the relative position of the body's center of mass over the skis' sweet spot. Why even think about small weak muscles to close the ankle?

I don't want to go down this rabbit hole again (like I did on epic and is one of the reasons I quit posting there for about a year), but lets call this a preference in how I like to get me over my sweet spot The entire world can tell me I'm wrong in doing it this way; fine. I'm still going to do it. This process matches up with the screwy way I think of things, categorize them and my attitude. I'm going down the hill. I'll be damned if I'm going to use any effort to pull something back up the hill. I do however reserve the right to do that move as a recovery effort or while in the bumps. I actually practice and coach it.

Google Michael Jackson (RIP) doing the moonwalk. That's how in MY HEAD pulling the feet back works and it didn't get him going in the direction he was facing.

I accept that I'm wrong and don't understand basic body function and may burn in skier hell because of it. Please accept that I'm happy in my own little world/head, at least with regards to this subject

Thanks,

Ken

 

[François Pugh]

A friend has ankles that mainly do not bend. The bootfitter I trust said that she would both shim the heel binding up and shim under his heel in the boot to get him balanced over the sweet spot on his skis. He has no other option. 3 piece boots like the Full Tilt or some Dalbello models might be needed to give him room for the heel lift.

"...using the muscles (tibialis anterior?) in my lower leg to close my ankle."
I've never understood this. We are built with strong hamstring muscles that can bring the feet back under (or behind) us. That is the easy, strong way to get the relative position of the body's center of mass over the skis' sweet spot. Why even think about small weak muscles to close the ankle?

Complimentary muscle activation/deactivation. That's why "close the ankle" works (for some people, with added leverage and gravity) despite the fact that if you sit them down in their ski boots with their feet in the air and tell them to close the ankle they can't budge the boot.

 

[AmyPJ]

I apologize ahead of time for the length. Won't be offended if you don't read the whole thing. The bottom line question is how can you tell how much of a shim to post on the zeppa board toe area to get forward. Trial and error? Is there a math equation (please let there be math)? Some way to measure it using plumb bob? I have some shims for this and am willing to play with it prior to going to a boot fitter to get it done permanently.

My thoughts are this is (at least) partially from using the muscles (tibialis anterior?) in my lower leg to close my ankle. Since I'm not forward enough, to close my ankle my foot is coming up some. If I was more forward, I would be able to close my ankle without the ball of my foot lightening and it would give more pressure there.

Your thoughts and recommendations are much appreciated.

Thanks,

Ken

So, this is the same sensation I have on my right side (the side I fractured the tibial plateau, then just found out I have a partially torn LCL in that knee.) Because of our lack of snow, I've been spending most of my time lapping the bunny hill, playing with stance and feeling the sensations from my feet through my shoulders, and I do the EXACT same thing with my right foot as you describe above. I was also thinking of playing with toe lifts on the boot sole, and I still might, since my issue seems to be asymmetrical, since my knees are essentially asymmetrical. But, I'm going to file this under the "will try that, too" spot in my head, and pull out some spoilers. Easy enough to try.

Interestingly, I went from a Salomon Xmax 90 to a Head B5 RD (junior race boot.) I do believe the Head also has a 12 degree forward lean.

 

[RuleMiHa]

So, this is the same sensation I have on my right side (the side I fractured the tibial plateau, then just found out I have a partially torn LCL in that knee.) Because of our lack of snow, I've been spending most of my time lapping the bunny hill, playing with stance and feeling the sensations from my feet through my shoulders, and I do the EXACT same thing with my right foot as you describe above. I was also thinking of playing with toe lifts on the boot sole, and I still might, since my issue seems to be asymmetrical, since my knees are essentially asymmetrical. But, I'm going to file this under the "will try that, too" spot in my head, and pull out some spoilers. Easy enough to try.

Interestingly, I went from a Salomon Xmax 90 to a Head B5 RD (junior race boot.) I do believe the Head also has a 12 degree forward lean.

Nope, the Head have 16*. It was one of the reasons I switched from the Lange to the Head.

 

[AmyPJ]

Nope, the Head have 16*. It was one of the reasons I switched from the Lange to the Head.

Hmmmmm!! Well, I'll try a toe lift under that boot first. Yes, just that one side.

 

[martyg]

Stuff a folded up trail map in between your she'll and liner at the back of the cuff. See how that feels.

 

[AmyPJ]

Stuff a folded up trail map in between your she'll and liner at the back of the cuff. See how that feels.

I have spoilers with my Boot Doc liners.
I did try 3mm of temporary shim under the sole plate, and it made quite a big difference. I think I'll make it a permanent change. I could initiate and release the right ski quite a lot more easily. Will probably lift the left toe, too. I had a pair of Tecnica boots 3 years ago that both had toe lifts. I have a short BSL, so it's not out of the realm of common sense to do so.

 

[L&AirC]

OK. It's been just over a month and I'm still not satisfied. I feel like I still have to fight to get forward even though I have the spoilers in. It isn't that I'm aft. I don't think I'm aft but I do think I should be more forward. One of the things I've noticed, is the reason I say I need to fight to get forward, is it takes almost everything I have to get on the ball of the foot. I can have my heel at the back of the boot, shin mashing the tongue, but I struggle to get my weight on the ball of foot. I can do it, but it is a struggle.

I'm looking for a suggestion.

Do something more along the lines of spoilers or add a toe lift? I'm leaning towards a toe lift.

Appreciate any thoughts and insight anyone is able to offer.

Ken

 

[Erik Timmerman]

Have you added toe lift? Where and how are you adding it?

 

[L&AirC]

Have you added toe lift? Where and how are you adding it?

I haven't added it yet as I'm looking for suggestions. I was planning on adding the toe lift under the toe

Sorry. Couldn't resist.

My thoughts are from the toe back to the start of the arch. This way making sure it includes the ball of foot. I have some bontex of different widths and some heel lifts that might work, if only for trying it out. I was also planning on it being between the zeppa and the insole.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

That's what I wanted to know, if you meant in the boot or under the boot. I think that doing it inside would be something you'd do if you have a very flexible ankle.

 

[CalG]

With your boots on in the living room, can you lower your hips (squat) so your femur is horizontal (or a bit deeper)??
That is a useful metric for geometry.

Heel lifts, toe lifts and forward lean can be useful diagnostic tools. All these can be applied without boot modification. (magazines at the boot heel or toe for example)

Soft cuffs are best when large RANGES of flex are required. such as skiing big bumps.
Stiffness is best for bending stiff skis while skiing hard surfaces.

 

[cantunamunch]

This

That's what I wanted to know, if you meant in the boot or under the boot. I think that doing it inside would be something you'd do if you have a very flexible ankle.

Then re-reading this

I just can't get much pressure at the ball of my foot. It's as if there is a lightening at the ball of my foot as I close my ankle.

My thoughts are this is (at least) partially from using the muscles (tibialis anterior?) in my lower leg to close my ankle. Since I'm not forward enough, to close my ankle my foot is coming up some. If I was more forward, I would be able to close my ankle without the ball of my foot lightening and it would give more pressure there.

^
almost sounds like the exact opposite (in the boot heel lift) is called for.