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for tech geeks only! fantastic series of articles on CRR & Aerodynamics

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Ron

Ron

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. hmmm. I have read those "comments". This was not a test on TT riding positions. in fact, manufacturers don't test their wheel with riders in TT positions that's a different analysis. since there are so many variables choosing a riding position that is common is more accurate. He doesn't test or evaluate Crr so he always uses 23mm tires at the same PSI (which effects tire size) and used the same tire for all wheels which equalizes the results. where he used a different combo, he states that. the larger the rim width to tire ratio, the more aero so using a 23 on all wheels is fair. However, your xxx6's and others are all designed around 25's now since its been proven that wider tires roll faster. If you tested that wheel with a 23, it will just be faster (again, that's not real world) so your 25's most likely seat at 27? that's about a 1:1 ratio, so deepening the wheel will correct some of that rim bulging. I'm not sure if you can even run a 23 on a 21internal rim btw but it would be more aero.so manufacturers simply adjusted the ratios of internal/external widths and deepened the wheels to provide better air attachment. you can equalize a wider than optimal rim/tire ratio by deepening the rim but of course, unless you are a pro on a real TT event, you aren't riding 80mm deep rims or full on dishes unless you want to be blown off the road by cross winds. interestingly, those same setups at lower speeds will result in slower times.

Again, this test and all other tests are flawed. He states that. He doesn't take in effect the Crr, CDf or weight of the rider/bike either. those variables will all effect the overall performance of a bike. What you should take away from the tests is the overall watt savings for the given rim depth. with the exception of the Hunt and Flow wheels, a depth of ~48 begins to be advantageous at about 15mph, real results can been seen at about 19mph and higher. All that is subject then to time spent at certain Yaw angles. most tests show results at 10-15* however the faster you ride, the lower the yaw angle so you need to see the speed used when looking at results and the time spent in those zones. Of course, spoke type and count will play a significant role (which is the issue with Flow IIRC) This all goes to pieces if you live in the Mountains and ride on courses that approach an average of 5%, then weight has the advantage..
 
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cantunamunch

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. hmmm. I have read those "comments". This was not a test on TT riding positions. in fact, manufacturers don't test their wheel with riders in TT positions that's a different analysis. since there are so many variables choosing a riding position that is common is more accurate..

Josh P.'s take, notice the second paragraph:
https://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/?post=6779847#p6779847

I did share some backchannel chatting with Hambini a few weeks back and he seemed reasonable in that, but ultimately his answers to my logistical questions don't hold up in my opinion. Taking an alternate approach, my questions were form the direction of how can you possibly have put a live rider in a tunnel for a 26 minute protocol x 20+ wheel combinations, and even assuming that's possible, how can you possibly claim 2.5% error when that really isn't possible once there is a human involved. He claims they did it, but from my experience this just isn't possible for a number of reasons, the big one being that humans are human.. getting a few minutes of clean and repeatable data can be hard, so getting 20+ blocks of 26 minutes feels impossible to me and there's no way to claim that level of repetition as we've shown that something even as simple as a rider getting cold over the course of a tunnel test can change their position enough affect data way more than 2.5% making repeat runs not repeatable, so claiming that level of accuracy and repeatability over weeks of half hour tunnel sessions doesn't hold up IMO.

Hambini does talk of 'aligning the rider with a laser'. I've no idea what the repeatability would be, 2.5% is ...wow.

https://weightweenies.starbike.com/...76d2e88367a5f62f8e6a96e7f1c&start=15#p1423308
 
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Ron

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yep, THANK YOU FOR THE LINKS! I agree however as much as I respect Josh, he contests this based on his opinion that the real rider can't replicate the tests. hambini states the rider is within 1cm. I don't know if he has software that provides guidance or he's totally lying but the lasers would give you a pretty accurate alignment :) Btw, 2.5% is an avg of about 5watts +/-.using 185 watts avg of all wheels at 30khp. Josh most likely correct (like 90% sure) however that alone doesn't refute or negate the results. using a real rider pedaling is more accurate than a mannequin or no rider. this kind of supports what Hambini said that there are just too many variable in the real world. when a person is riding down the road, they are not always in the same position, not always riding in a straight line, not always on smooth roads so does any test really predict your outcome on any given wheel? tests don't include riding up inclines or over rough surfaces so they don't take in account how they handle and respond to added acceleration or deflection on uneven surfaces; AT BEST, they are indicators of aerodynamics. I look at many different factors not what a test shows.

looking at the range of watts at 30kph, (18mph) across all wheels tested, the results are pretty flat if you take out 80mm wheels and 25mm wheels (and again flow and hunt) at 50 kph, of course the delta is huge but I don't know of anyone who averages 30mph. so OK, yep, using a live person riding is probably less precise in positioning but when you are pedaling, it replicates the tire airflow more accurately. Mannequins are better for isolating position variables so some good things and some bad. just like all of the tests. don't buy a wheel based on this or any aero test. look at the overall picture. personally, I asked him to use 40khp in the future and not 50. that would be of more interest to me.


EDIT: please note on my original post about the Hambini study was not about the results of the individual wheels but more of the findings; 18mph = not much true difference in wheels, 50Kph, who cares? but the real findings were that you need to go faster than 18 mph to really see a significant difference and that you need a wheel depth of about 45-48 depth to really have a significant impact. also the time spent at different yaws and other variables not typically tested or divulged by manufacturers test.
 
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oldschoolskier

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There a lot of factors that contribute to the best performance. One is that of the mind.

“I believe and it is.”

While there is little scientific proof that this is the case, it is likely the biggest influencing factor in outcomes. Blind tests included.

This explains the changes in what is newest and greatest leading to all these different opinions.
 

oldschoolskier

Making fresh tracks
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There a lot of factors that contribute to the best performance. One is that of the mind.

“I believe and it is.” While there is little scientific proof that this is the case, it is likely the biggest influencing factor in outcomes. Blind tests included.

This explains the changes in what is newest and greatest.
 

scott43

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I've always thought, looking at a lot of cyclists, that the best performance indicator is the thigh-beer gut interface and the angle created with the femur as a result! :D
 
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