• For more information on how to avoid pop-up ads and still support SkiTalk click HERE.

Foot beds

neonorchid

Making fresh tracks
Skier
Joined
Nov 21, 2015
Posts
6,725
Location
Mid-Atlantic
Those Soles are a good example of something that needs to be trimmed to fit. Which is what they're called. No trimming your foot is going to be hung up on the medial side and at a big angle.
You referring to the arch area? If so it can't be trimmed, doing so would end up too narrow to fit your foot, i.e., the edge would hit short of your arch/midfoot width wise. Like I said I did try the Sole Thin Sport, and they do have a high arch which is good if it matches one's foot anatomy (did I just use that word out of context):huh:. For that reason alone they'd never work in my low instep height (volume), Salomon X-max 120's, (I didn't try them for use with those ski boots).
 

James O

Putting on skis
Skier
Joined
Mar 10, 2016
Posts
50
Location
S.F., CA, USA
Yes, definitely had to trim all around using original stock footbed as a template. After heat-molding they seemed to compress all around and adjust to the height of the arch very well.
 

neonorchid

Making fresh tracks
Skier
Joined
Nov 21, 2015
Posts
6,725
Location
Mid-Atlantic
^ I tried heat molding them, it did nothing, maybe I did it wrong? Nevertheless, that was not the reason they didn't work. Heel lift due to insole thickness and being hard as a rock underfoot was the deal breaker for me in the particular application.
 

bbinder

Making fresh tracks
Skier
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
2,229
Location
Massachusetts
I'm not buying the argument saying a good custom made footbed will last for multiple boots, shoes etc. Perhaps if you were buying identical replacements. Ime, Every ski boot, sneaker, shoe etc that I get fits a little different, volume shape etc. One size fits all footbed would never work. Fwiw, I almost have as many aftermarket footbeds as I have shoes, well not really but you get the idea.

Maybe I am the anomaly here, maybe not. I had Surefoot make me footbeds at Keystone about 16-17 years ago and have used them in 4 different pairs of ski boots. Everytime I buy a new pair of boots or have consulted with a boot fitter (including Greg Hoffmann and Bud Heishman), I have asked if I should get a new footbed made, being more than willing to spend the money for a new one. Each time, I have been told, "Nah, those are good". Of course, this comment may be to suggest that nothing can really help me:)
 

bud heishman

Skiing performance facilitator
Instructor
Sky Tavern
Joined
Nov 15, 2015
Posts
539
Location
Tahoe
Check out "Boot Doc" footbeds. a wide array of choices with a three arch, moldable system at great prices!
 

neonorchid

Making fresh tracks
Skier
Joined
Nov 21, 2015
Posts
6,725
Location
Mid-Atlantic
Maybe I am the anomaly here, maybe not. I had Surefoot make me footbeds at Keystone about 16-17 years ago and have used them in 4 different pairs of ski boots.
Sure if everything matches or is easily modified too, and the FB's structure hasn't collapsed or broken down. I'm glad they still meet your needs and are working out for you. 17 years is a long time. Bear in mind as we age, it's not uncommon for foot structure and size to change. Feet tend to spread due to changes in bone position from a loosening of ligaments and tendons loss of elasticity along with a weakening of muscles. Also, bottoms of feet lose cushioning fatty pads, especially the heel pad.
 

cem

Out on the slopes
Masterfit Bootfitter
Industry Insider
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
622
Location
a gridlocked town in middle England
there are a lot of differing opinions on this subject, some are great and some are just plain wrong, to say to someone that they should avoid a product at all costs when it is a well established product is just crazy, what works for you doesn't work for me etc etc. classic example being the superfeet trim to fit blue product 2 because the heel isn't even flat" had the poster got an understanding of biomechnics they would know that there is a reason for the heel not being flat (the heel on the custom kork product by the same brand which he had great success with is equally NOT FLAT). But lets deal with the question in hand...Custom footbeds...

basically there are 3 different ways they can be built,
1 weighted: this is when the footbed is placed into a mold whilst you are standing on it, for a very rigid foot it can work well and if the fitter is very experienced it can be a good option BUT this tends to be the kind of thing you will see in a chain store and if the foot is unstable ground reaction force pushing up as the body weight pushes the foot down can give a really nice mold of a collapsed foot. most well known of these is Conformable
2 semi weight bearing: with the client seated the foot is placed into a similar mold as the weight bearing method BUT the fitter has some control over the foot and can position the foot into a neutral position, most common of these is probably Instaprint
3 non weight bearing: the foot is suspended and the fitter has control of the joints to get the neutral position, Superfeet custom is the most popular of these products


other systems include the surefoot milling system which is a cut down version of AmFit and uses a cad cam mill to cut the footbed from a solid block

now, here is the problem, none of the systems above are bad in any way, but they can all produce bad footbeds in the wrong hands, they key is the guy (or gal) making the product, in my store we have 3 differing ways to make a custom footbed, we make the vast majority either non weight bearing or semi weight bearing and we select the product based on the foot, the skier and the boot (there is no point us making a bulky really supportive product to try and get it into a plug boot being used for a fis level race and needing to be under a legal stand height) so a balance has to be drawn, each person we see is different and each product we use for them is different too, down to the density of the posting material we use for different body weights or foot flexibility

if you can find a store which has a C.Ped (certified pedorthist) on staff then you are on the way to finding a good product, but go by personal recommendations of the fitter rather than sticking a pin in the map, there are some great fitters out there who have no medical credentials and may make a better footbed for YOU than someone who has all the letters possible after their name.

so how should a custom footbed feel? it is a bit like a bucket seat, it needs to contact the foot all over and not put undue pressure in any one place, we are aiming to spread the load across the entire plantar surface of the foot and equalize pressure, they may feel a bit strange at first especially if you have never had any support under your foot and it may take a few days for everything to settle down, BUT the footbed should not cause you pain! all the good fitters i know will stand by their work on footbeds and either change r refund a product that doesn't work for you, all you need to do is give good honest feedback and work with them

hope that helps

Colin
 

James

Out There
Instructor
Joined
Dec 2, 2015
Posts
24,847
17 years?? What's living in that cork??

I hope your following a yearly irradiation plan...
"Boot fitter gets Legionaires Disease. Source traced to cork in 17 year old footbed."

I probably have near a dozen footbeds still lying around. Some ruined some not. The last one I realized had way too much posting medially. So that went out in Feb with the new Langes. There followed the Superfeet experiment. The Blue one- utter garbage. The plastic heel cup doesn't even sit flat. Back to the other, sand the posting down. Then at Snowmass I forgot to put one footbe in the liner. Because I was switching liners. ( See, I brought two pairs of boots after The Tahoe Affair a few years ago. When at the gathering/wedding my new boots with 8? Days previous became a disaster.)

So...fortunately the tiny shop at that base area (not the village) sold Boot Doctors. Got a pair and borrowed some scissors. Now I had over $100 in off the shelf experimentation. Before leaving on my trip a couple weeks later scrapped that and had one made along ith some boot work.

So I don't get all gooey if a fitter promises the moon with their footbeds. I've had a few even a couple from big names over the years. One of the best was a 3/4 cork made by a guy in a shop you'd never think had someone good in it. The worst was when I thought I wanted more arch support. A lot more. I had a guy make me a rigid footbed. He laid fiberglass in the arch. Awesome, this is going to be great. Then I skied it for a day. My knees hurt for at least a week. Very bad idea.

Edit: @cem I see you posted above. So why are every custom ski footbed I've seen flat underneath the heel? Meaning the footbed sits flat at the heel. Why does surefoot mill from a flat bottom blank? I thought the Superfeet cork was flat under heel but that was 15 years ago. I don't think that survived.

But what is the theory under the heel?
 
Last edited:

cem

Out on the slopes
Masterfit Bootfitter
Industry Insider
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
622
Location
a gridlocked town in middle England
@James,

we need to be clear that trim to fit is NOT a substitute for a custom made product

the "not flat" surface on the superfeet product allows the foot to pronate ever so slightly to stop that "my knees hurt for a week" feeling, in truth you don't need a flat surface under the heel of the device (although most of us will create one) as when the distal medial edge of the orthotic hits the floor the foot cannot pronate further, when held within the confines of a liner there is very little pronatory motion of the footbed inside the boot. an example of this is the latest superfeet custom carbon winter which has a completely curved base to the product, i skied this product last season moulded but with nothing else and was surprised how stable it was, this season i added a rearfoot post for a little more stability, did i notice a difference? yes, but not as much as i would have expected, it was subtle more than a blatant change to the feel of the product, to make this more noticeable i skied one with the post and one without, only then was the difference something which could be picked up.

the key to this is the shape of the product, the vacuum casting process captures 30% more shape than you can get by laying a foot into a mold so this intimacy of fit is key to not needing to block everything solid.

now then... the sure foot system, the mill form a flat bottomed block as they can't do anything else, the milling machine can't handle anything else. it shoudl also be noted that the system they use AmFit has a full pedorthic software attached to it which surefoot do not have in their stores, they have a cut down version of the software as the staff are not medically qualified and the cost is less (the set up costs about $30k+) i know that they actually select form a series of pre determined shapes the software selects the closest one to your foot and that is what you get, so (unless they have upgraded everything and changed to the full software) it is NOT a true custom product
 

James

Out There
Instructor
Joined
Dec 2, 2015
Posts
24,847
Well I get the Sure Foot system. Didn't work for me, we tried 3 times and the golf ball in the arch feeling still hurt so I used the guarantee and bailed. That was for a hiking boot. I was told by an instaprinter maker that the Surefoot program basically fits you to one of about a dozen shapes. They solved bottom flat issue but have others like not really modifiable without machining another blank.

So for 20-40? Years the bottom of ski boot footbeds have been flat? (Is that true?) Now it's ok not to be?

In my experience, all custom ski footbeds are basically finished bottom grinding flat. I've had a fair number. Only two customs in the last four years, but goodness probably a dozen in the last 20 years. Including plaster mold of foot then used by maker to form. (I think I still have the plaster feet), the step into a foam box one that gets sent out, Instaprint, Conformable, Petersen? reflective material on bottom-weighted, Superfeet Cork. Not all those were flat.(I'm pretty sure that cork was flat. The heel cup used to fall off towards end of life.) I also had a brief session with Eric Ward on his tilting table though I didn't get his custom footbed at the time. In recent years I have not had one made by a "big name" mainly because they're $250- pretty common, to probably $500 from Jeff Rich in Nyc.

This is basically the process of flattening the bottom I've seen. At 5:25 -

Let's not through out "biomechanics" unless you're specific. What exactly? Seeing as what 85% ? of the custom market has been Instaprint and similar- grind flat the bottom, for decades no less, saying flat isn't needed should come with an explanation.

We're at non flat now because? (Honest questions)

- The heel is rigid in new designs. Now it hits the liner and is stabilized.
- People weren't getting it flat anyway too many times. Or not on the same plane as the rest of the foot. So now less to worry about getting flat because it's not.

- Too much work. This is quicker, easier, more profitable and good for 80% of people.

-We now want the heel to roll, move.

-?

For your entertainment I offer this which I found by chance. If it was edited to 1/10 length it could be a comedy skit done at an Orthotics convention.

Highlights-
If Mr Rodgers made footbeds today...
He takes his dog for a walk in the middle of making the orthotic.
There's a zipper sewn in to the arch.
Millet seed hulls are spooned into the arch by the customer.

Got to give him credit, he does all that for $120

 
Last edited:

neonorchid

Making fresh tracks
Skier
Joined
Nov 21, 2015
Posts
6,725
Location
Mid-Atlantic
@James I had thought you were talking about the heel cup which interfaces with the bottom of the foot being flat not the heel capsule's bottom which interfaces with the shoe boot whatever. The Blue Superfeet is not flat because it is not designed to sit on a flat "ski boot boot board". Sƒ Green capsule, Merino Grey, and a few others are flat. I never liked those, too much heel lift and too wide. Also inserting them in the shoe pushes out the arch contour of the shoe's fabric leather or whatever upper because they don't match the contour width wise. Probably good for Frankenstein orthopedic shoes with deep flat recesses designed to mate with an orthotic. I couldn't say I don't buy such nor do I need to. I have always been extremely picky when it comes to footwear and put being a fashion victim second to comfort. Lessons learned early on as my mother always had me in good fitting supportive shoes.

Btw, with my current Salomon X-max 120 boots, I'm using the stock insole without issues and I do not feel the need for anything more, thank you.
 

skibob

Skiing the powder
Skier
Joined
Jan 5, 2016
Posts
4,286
Location
Santa Rosa Fire Belt
@James

Btw, with my current Salomon X-max 120 boots, I'm using the stock insole without issues and I do not feel the need for anything more, thank you.
How do you like the X Max 120? Been eyeballing them myself. In the interest of not threadjacking, I'd encourage you to start a new thread if your answer is more than a few sentences. Which would be really cool . . .
 

neonorchid

Making fresh tracks
Skier
Joined
Nov 21, 2015
Posts
6,725
Location
Mid-Atlantic
They are ok, a few quirks, still highly recommended.
I'll start a new thread a little later when I have more time - at the moment it's a sunny 55º and woods are a calling me
:wag:
 

Uncle-A

In the words of Paul Simon "You can call me Al"
Skier
Joined
Dec 22, 2015
Posts
10,957
Location
NJ
I did not feel like starting a new thread so I just grabbed this one.

Does anyone have first hand knowledge on the DFP Podium Plus Foot Beds?
 

Jay S

In the parking lot (formerly "At the base lodge")
Skier
Joined
Apr 1, 2017
Posts
18
I'm not buying the argument saying a good custom made footbed will last for multiple boots, shoes etc. Perhaps if you were buying identical replacements. Ime, Every ski boot, sneaker, shoe etc that I get fits a little different, volume shape etc. One size fits all footbed would never work. Fwiw, I almost have as many aftermarket footbeds as I have shoes, well not really but you get the idea.
I've used my Surefoot foot beds in multiple boots over the last 10 years. I'm not saying it will work in every boot but I've had no problems swapping them from bot to boot
 

Jerez

Skiing the powder
Skier
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Nov 25, 2015
Posts
3,035
Location
New Mexico
I have semi-custom foot beds that I was given by Sven Coomer when I bought my Zip Fit liners from him. They mold to your feet from your foot's own heat, using similar material to the liners. I have had them both for 10 plus years.

The last 2 new boots I've bought since, the boot fitter sold me InstaPrint foot beds. (I'm talking really good boot fitter who teaches at Masterfit etc etc) And Both times I've ended up throwing them away and going back to Sven's cork beds. They adjust to my feet when they are warm and swollen or cold and not swollen and, presumably, as I've become old and my anatomy has shifted. I have had no problems moving them from boot to boot.

One of them finally cracked at the big toe area this season. Unfortunately, they were a prototype and I don't think they can be purchased. Fortunately, he gave me two pairs, one for my ski boots and one for my running shoes.I emailed Sven to find out if I could buy some new ones, but never heard back. So I moved one of the running shoe ones into my ski boots after a bit of trimming and it has worked just fine. Now I have a spare.

Best foot beds ever (at least for my feet). It's a darn shame he never brought them to market.
 

Uncle-A

In the words of Paul Simon "You can call me Al"
Skier
Joined
Dec 22, 2015
Posts
10,957
Location
NJ
I have semi-custom foot beds that I was given by Sven Coomer when I bought my Zip Fit liners from him. They mold to your feet from your foot's own heat, using similar material to the liners. I have had them both for 10 plus years.

The last 2 new boots I've bought since, the boot fitter sold me InstaPrint foot beds. (I'm talking really good boot fitter who teaches at Masterfit etc etc) And Both times I've ended up throwing them away and going back to Sven's cork beds. They adjust to my feet when they are warm and swollen or cold and not swollen and, presumably, as I've become old and my anatomy has shifted. I have had no problems moving them from boot to boot.

One of them finally cracked at the big toe area this season. Unfortunately, they were a prototype and I don't think they can be purchased. Fortunately, he gave me two pairs, one for my ski boots and one for my running shoes.I emailed Sven to find out if I could buy some new ones, but never heard back. So I moved one of the running shoe ones into my ski boots after a bit of trimming and it has worked just fine. Now I have a spare.

Best foot beds ever (at least for my feet). It's a darn shame he never brought them to market.
Any photos available of these type of foot beds? Maybe we can find similar ones.
 

Frankly

Upwind of NY
Pass Pulled
Joined
Dec 28, 2016
Posts
527
Location
Spencerport, NY
I have 17 pairs of various custom footbeds for daily wear, sports, and skiing and have been using them since 1979.

The angle of the footbed's base is the most important and often wrong part.
 

cantunamunch

Meh
Skier
Joined
Nov 17, 2015
Posts
22,127
Location
Lukey's boat
The Yellow Superfeet isn't bad. Yellow has the narrowest heel which is also thin. It doesn't make the liners heel pocket wider, and or raise the ankle bone above the shell/liner contours. Black is a little wider, still thin. Carbon's heel is too flat and wide, offering little heel hold and support which I find highly desirable in active footwear such as ski boots, skates, and trail running shoes. .

As a longtime fan of yellows, I do note that a) they drop the heel quite far b) they are simply not available in outlets down here, in spite of this (supposedly) being a hockey town.
 

Sponsor

Top