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Focuses/takeaways from training in New Zealand

Skisailor

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So . . . @mike_m, starting "down low" as everyone likes to do, please square these two recent statements of yours for me:

1) Interesting that this seems to be a new idea for many folks. All the coaches I've worked with for the past several years (Jonathan Ballou, Reilly McGlashan, Tom Gelle, Josh Fogg, JF Beaulieu) advocate a dorsiflexed foot at all times during skiing. By spreading and lifting the toes, and trying to feel that pull/lift all the way back to the ball of the foot (i.e., not just in the toes), you create a functional tension that plants you in the strongest part of the foot (back of the arch, front of the heel) and activates the ligaments of the front of the shin to automatically pull you ahead. Try it.

2) Everything starts down low, in active, supple ankles.

Emphasis added by me.

Now - I understand that there will be at least some, albeit a much smaller, range of ankle motion possible while still being "dorsiflexed". But combining this constant dorsiflexion idea with the many statements I've read here regarding pulling up the toes and activating the anterior tibialis to produce a constant state of tension does NOT. IMO result in active, supple ankles.

Supple, BTW, is defined as "bending and moving easily and gracefully; flexible".

????
 

Zentune

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Skisailor, consider that perhaps, one could apply the same movements as outlined by the OP and yet vary the DIRT...........

zenny
 

Skisailor

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Skisailor, consider that perhaps, one could apply the same movements as outlined by the OP and yet vary the DIRT...........

zenny

Awesome Zenny. Thanks. I'm totally on board with varying the DIRT. It's just that, IMO, in order to have the ability to truly do that - for all turn and terrain types - I can't imagine why we would want to artificially impose such a limited range of motion in a joint that is so close to our base of support and so consequential for managing our fore-aft balance and longitudinal ski-snow interaction.
 

JESinstr

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Personally, I don't see that much, if any, limited range of ankle flexion under dorsiflexion. in fact I feel I have a much improved BOS especially if I am on a moving platform.

What is affected (obviously) is the lack in ability to plantar flex thereby keeping your base of support between the BACK of the ball of the foot and the heel.... in other words, through the arch, a key place where foot expansion can take place. And remember, we do work from the bottom up but that is because we need to make sure we can manage all the mass upstairs and reliably align it to the forces at play at all times.

As Zenny stated the DIRT plays a key role in the application of these movement patterns.
 

Lorenzzo

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Awesome Zenny. Thanks. I'm totally on board with varying the DIRT. It's just that, IMO, in order to have the ability to truly do that - for all turn and terrain types - I can't imagine why we would want to artificially impose such a limited range of motion in a joint that is so close to our base of support and so consequential for managing our fore-aft balance and longitudinal ski-snow interaction.
As a non-instructor trying to follow along....was the lifting of the forefoot supposed to be ongoing or just to capture the feeling of what that produces?
 

Zentune

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Awesome Zenny. Thanks. I'm totally on board with varying the DIRT. It's just that, IMO, in order to have the ability to truly do that - for all turn and terrain types - I can't imagine why we would want to artificially impose such a limited range of motion in a joint that is so close to our base of support and so consequential for managing our fore-aft balance and longitudinal ski-snow interaction.

Could be a semantics error. For me, I rarely think about lifting my toes or actively flexing my ankle, instead I focus on pulling a foot, or both feet, back underneath me. I find that focusing on that *facilitates* an outcome of a flexed ankle or ankles....again, with a dirt-based application.

But my post wasn’t as much about that as it was about the original post and your response to it. Not everyone will look just like Reilly, Ballou, Gellie etc, they’re young hot skiers, however one can still apply the principles of their movements to ones own skiing...

I DO agree that maintaining a flexed and yet relaxed ankle is a tad confusing however :)

zenny
 

JESinstr

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As a non-instructor trying to follow along....was the lifting of the forefoot supposed to be ongoing or just to capture the feeling of what that produces?

Excellent Question. Out of boots, in your stocking feet, if you raise your toes while flexing the hinge complex (ankles, knees, hips) so that your COM is directed through the arch you will capture the feeling of a wider, more solid platform for managing balance on a moving platform versus your day to day point to point locomotion balance (heel to toe) methodology.

It is this feeling for a new dynamically balance platform that you need to have your mind recognize. So you don't always have to concentrate on lifting the toes once you ingrain the feeling. But if you are having issues and want a place to go where balance is solidly established, focus on dorsiflexion will definitely help get you there.
 

Skisailor

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Could be a semantics error. For me, I rarely think about lifting my toes or actively flexing my ankle, instead I focus on pulling a foot, or both feet, back underneath me. I find that focusing on that *facilitates* an outcome of a flexed ankle or ankles....again, with a dirt-based application.

But my post wasn’t as much about that as it was about the original post and your response to it. Not everyone will look just like Reilly, Ballou, Gellie etc, they’re young hot skiers, however one can still apply the principles of their movements to ones own skiing...

I DO agree that maintaining a flexed and yet relaxed ankle is a tad confusing however :)

zenny

I agree with everything you say here and believe that really knowing how to flex a boot (have the outcome of a flexed ankle) is not so much about muscular action, but about understanding how to use our weight to do so - especially critical for me as a petite woman. The "semantics" and the way I talk about it are different, but I think we are probably on the same page.

I also agree that it can only be a good thing to learn to apply the principles of the movement patterns of elite skiers like Reilly, JF and the rest.

The difference I think, is that I have this belief because my experience of skiing has shown me that versatility, not just of outcome, but of possible different techniques to get there, is paramount for a teacher of skiing, NOT because I think their principles of movement are the highest or best, or God forbid, only way of doing things.

So I definitely don't object to what they do or how they ski! But I am beginning to object to the way our professional organization is responding to it. And I may be wrong, but I think there is also a lot of confusing whisper down the lane stuff happening as it comes to the Divisions. Of course, this is my own personal experience within my own Division and is also influenced by the advice and counsel of some long time instructors and their historical perspective about where we've been and where we're going.

Thanks for engaging Zenny! I do appreciate it.
 

Uke

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Things have moved on before I could get back so I included both posts this refers to.

mdf,

For me that fact that the same movements produce different outcomes is precisely why I make the statement that every turn I ever make is a carve (carve as a verb) rather than give the impression that 'thin line in the snow' outcome carve (carve as a noun) is somehow a different way of skiing. As I have expressed before it seems less productive to use outcomes to define skiing rather than inputs.
uke

Disclaimer: speaking now only to my personal experience and fully appreciating the possibility that others' experiences may vary.

Not different ways of skiing? For me they are.

On the same surface
, if in one turn my edge has broken loose and is sliding laterally, and in another it hasn't and isn't, I'm either doing something different in the turn or at the start of it. I can't get the different outcomes with the exact same body mechanics everywhere in the turn - something has to be different somewhere. It's possible to feather between skid of varying degrees and full hook-up on and off anywhere in a turn, even several times, but I have to do it. It's fully conscious decision making and means moving the body to achieve. It's also possible in some section of a turn with skidding edges to be in the same body position as one while holding a clean edge; however, something else has or is happening to make the change - different input.


Are outcomes less productive as definitions? In a slarved, skidded, brushed, feathered turn - whatever language you prefer - the net effect by virtue of friction is braking, not the case in a turn on a cleanly tracking edge. To me, that's an important difference and is the main reason I choose one over the other - speed control is productive in the moment.

My disclaimer, the following is based on 30+years of being a instructor/technique nerd

Several times DIRT has been mentioned, that's instructor speak for duration, intensity, rate and timing. They are referring to how long, how strongly, how quickly and just when you make/apply a movement. I take a few basic movements and by varying the DIRT produce a wide variety of outcomes/turns.

But the outcome isn't just dependent on dirty old me. The particular tool I'm working with that day has an effect. The snow conditions will determine the difference between a clean carve (thin line in snow), a dirty carve (a trench in the snow), or a brushed arc, all from the same moves. Speed and steepness have a great effect on outcomes.

So, in refining skiing down to a few basic moves and always using the ski as it is designed to function DIRT allows me to match my intent to the conditions. Since we all work with the same physics and pretty much the same bio-mechanics the basic movements should also be similar so everyone kinds of moves to what works best.

Hope this helps,

uke
 

Zentune

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Hmmmm, I know what your getting at Skisailor. I should add that I work as a psia L3 instructor and staff trainier at my mountain, fwiw...regardless, take what I say with a grain of salt:

My personal belief is that the reason less emphasis is placed on rotary here is that it’s just simply errr, more simple to twist/steer/smear a ski. That’s not to say that such cannot be part of a higher skill set (stivots, pivoting in bumps, you get the point), but rather to say that for most, rotating the ski comes quite naturally whereas more purely tipping it on edge does not. Imo it is the higher degree of difficulty especially a pure arc with no twist, therefore they have chosen to focus on that in recent years—no doubt Harb has had a huge influence wether people admit it or not. Take this idea and add it to the thought that modern skis are designed to “self steer” and voila! an evolution in approach.

I would be willing to gurantee that those guys still use rotary though.....in fact I got a fist hand view of some high speed, ripping GS turns on a steep icy face, by Ballou himself with perfectly executed stivots on every turn thrown in for good measure.

I should add that perhaps in juxataposition to what I just said, a few of my “cadets” on our ski school actually struggle with rotary, they grew up on shaped skis and just wanna arc em! so there is that ;-)

Just a couple of my thoughts, for what they’re worth :)

zenny
 

Steve

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I don't feel that rotary is simple or comes easily zenny. Bad rotary does - shoulder rotary, waist rotary, foot steering is easy, but rotating the femurs in the hip sockets is one of the last things that I got a good handle on and something that held me back not only in my skiing but in my certification attempts. It is the basis of good upper body/lower body separation.

It's also key to bump skiing, pivot slips, etc. It has been very emphasized to me over the years by Examiners, so I find it hard to accept that it is not still a very important part of PSIA techniques.

My skiing took a quantum leap forward once I started to feel those thighs turning.
 

Zentune

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“Easy” may not have been a good choice of words Steve, I agree, and I knew I’d get a bit of pushback for my post. I’m more referring to an active steering input (good or bad) as opposed to an edging one...although of course edging involves multiple joint rotation. And maybe that too is part of the issue with rotary eg, it’s definition can be used in so many different ways and can refer hip, knee, foot, spinal, shoulder neck. Heck, so many of our joints move in the rotational plane it can actually boggle the mind! But certain rotations that impart a twisting input to the ski, I feel are for many, more accesiable naturally. I’ve seen instructors struggle so hard with simple railroads on a shallow groomer...the main culprit being an initial twisting of the ski in almost every case. Why?


Edited to add that I did point out in my post that pivots in bumps and stivots are a couple of examples of high end applied rotations to the skis...pivot slips would be another example, so don’t get me wrong here ;-)

zenny
 

Steve

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Needless to say the whole active rotary vs. passive rotary debate looms whenever this is discussed.

At last years Pro Jam the Examiner I was training with explained that in bumps he uses less edge angle as it allows for more options. A flat ski can be a big advantage in many situations.

And yes, rotary can be a terrible thing for most skiers and will ruin Railroad tracks and arc to arc skiing. Quite the conundrum as skillful UB/LB separation through either allowing the legs to turn, or actively turning them is key to expert skiing in my opinion.

Even just finishing your turns (I hate that term to a certain degree) is dependent on adding some leg steering, or at the very least some functional rotary tension before the edge release.

I think this goes a lot to Ski Sailor's objection to the statement that there is one best way to ski.
 

Skisailor

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“Easy” may not have been a good choice of words Steve, I agree, and I knew I’d get a bit of pushback for my post. I’m more referring to an active steering input (good or bad) as opposed to an edging one...although of course edging involves multiple joint rotation. And maybe that too is part of the issue with rotary eg, it’s definition can be used in so many different ways and can refer hip, knee, foot, spinal, shoulder neck. Heck, so many of our joints move in the rotational plane it can actually boggle the mind! But certain rotations that impart a twisting input to the ski, I feel are for many, more accesiable naturally. I’ve seen instructors struggle so hard with simple railroads on a shallow groomer...the main culprit being an initial twisting of the ski in almost every case. Why?

zenny

I have to admit - my experience is more that of @Steve 's. And I admit a bias because learning rotation - not just ski twisting - but proper, nuanced, expert leg rotation and skill blending is the key that unlocked the door of big mountain skiing for me.

But that has been reinforced over and over and over again by my particular experience with students - who almost ALWAYS have a much more well developed sense of edging and pressure control movements than they do of rotary movements when they get to me. They are frequently clueless about how to create proper rotation or how to use it. They think of all of their skiing problems in terms of what they are or are not doing with their edging. Sometimes they don't even have language to talk about rotary - unless it's "skidding" which a buddy has probably told them is bad because of today's carving bias.

Helping them to be able to reliably get OFF their edges (often for the first time) and turn their legs is the key that opens up the mountain to them - as Steve said - the bumps, the trees, the steeps and chutes, etc. And the response I get is amazement.

The UN edging, UN tipping is seemingly a difficult skill for many to learn - even, or maybe especially - for folks who have been skiing a long time.

And I would also add my observation that our newer and younger instructors struggle with rotary and especially with separating at the femur/hip socket juncture. But they can tip and rip.

All generalizations of course.

Our own experiences of skiing and teaching are what shape us , of course.
 

4ster

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Even though this thread has drifted a bit, a bunch of quality posts are showing up. ogsmile
My fear is that sometimes we confuse tactics with technique. :huh:

230B9981-DE4C-442D-8B4A-B221FACF9371.jpeg
 

Steve

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And just to add a little to my last post. The feeling, the proprioception of legs turning is something that needs to be developed. I stand in front of a mirror with no shirt on and turn my legs, looking at my belly button to make sure it doesn't follow along. I need to develop that awareness actively, it doesn't come naturally. In fact "hips" are something that so many skiers don't even understand. They think that it is the side of the pelvis, where a gun holster would be mounted. The pelvis is not the hips, but so many people think it is, and thus steering happens at the waist, not in the hip socket.
 
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mike_m

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Skisailor: In reply to your question in post #41, I don't find that a dorsiflexed foot at all times inhibits my ability to tip the skis. As was mentioned in another post, the functional tension created by spreading and lifting the toes, and trying to feel that pull/lift all the way back to the ball of the foot (i.e., not just in the toes), creates a functional tension that plants you in the strongest part of the foot (back of the arch, front of the heel) and activates the ligaments of the front of the shin to automatically pull you ahead. I don't think you'll find it has any negative effect in the area of tipping. Like all suggestions given, of course, you should try it to see if it works for you!

By the way, nice, calm, rational, discussion, all! Thank you for staying (mostly!) on topic!

Best!
Mike

PS: Just for fun, here are some videos of some of the Rookie Academy coaches doing some medium- and short-radius turns. Kind of a nice image leading up to the new season, I think! (And the slow-motion sections are fun to dissect!)

Enjoy!


Jonathan Ballou:



JF Beaulieu:



Josh Duncan-Smith:



Reilly McGlashan:










 
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Skisailor

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Skisailor: In reply to your question in post #41, I don't find that a dorsiflexed foot at all times inhibits my ability to tip the skis. As was mentioned in another post, the functional tension created by spreading and lifting the toes, and trying to feel that pull/lift all the way back to the ball of the foot (i.e., not just in the toes), creates a functional tension that plants you in the strongest part of the foot (back of the arch, front of the heel) and activates the ligaments of the front of the shin to automatically pull you ahead. I don't think you'll find it has any negative effect in the area of tipping. Like all suggestions given, of course, you should try it to see if it works for you!

By the way, nice, calm, rational, discussion, all! Thank you for staying (mostly!) on topic!

Best!
Mike

PS: Just for fun, here are some videos of some of the Rookie Academy coaches doing some medium- and short-radius turns. Kind of a nice image leading up to the new season, I think! (And the slow-motion sections are fun to dissect!)

Enjoy!

Interesting how we totally miscommunicated there! But it says a LOT about the difference in our respective mindsets. I wasn't thinking about tipping at ALL.

I was trying to understand how a skier can have a constantly dorsiflexed ankle coupled with constant tension and AT THE SAME TIME ski with an active supple ankle.

I was thinking about ankle range of motion in the dorsiflexion through plantar flexion movement range.

I use that full range of motion a lot in my skiing - from mashing the cuff to a completely open ankle with calf on the back of the cuff - in all kinds of turns.

Some are still a work in progress as I continue to train with my mentor. The last two seasons, for example, we have been working on having loose relaxed ankles in crud. Wow - is that an awesome feeling to master! The ankle acts as a little shock absorber, minimizing the shocks that get transmitted up through the skeleton.
The skiing feels and looks very smooth.

Just an example. But that's what I meant. Active supple ankles - but not in terms of lateral motion. My boots prevent my ankles from being very active or supple in the lateral plane.
 

Steve

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Thanks for the videos @mike_m . Without side views it's hard to see the ankles opening and closing, but in the Duncan-Smith one around :20 at the slow-mo I can see the ankles opening and closing. Since this relates to my spread your feet thread and your comments on it I find this interesting.

Are you saying that you keep that spread/lifted toe feeling with dorsiflexion while still opening and closing the ankles? Hard thing to imagine opening them while they're dorsiflexed, but not completely inconceivable.
 
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mike_m

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Skisailor and Steve:

Yep, I keep the ankles closed at all times. This focus was introduced to me by JF, then Jonathan, then Reilly. If you watch Reilly's video, I think you'll agree he has some of the most supple ankles imaginable! I think you'll find that you can still "stroke the ski" (from tip to middle to tail) using closed ankles. On all turns, one can still tip the boots and center of mass forward and back as needed (to ski bumps, for instance). One can easily roll forward toward the balls of the feet at initiation, then to the center, then back toward the heels (not too much!) very effectively. Again, something to try for yourselves. Many superb skiers do not do this. Like all focuses, this is something you can experiment with and see if it clicks for you.

Best!
Mike
 

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