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Flexion and extension patterns

Doby Man

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It is also very difficult to describe timing. High/fast tipping slows everything down and makes high edge angles impossible if you do it too fast/too early.
I find that often it is better to ask my skiers to try to delay edge engagement until the CoM is low enough, which coincides with high edge angles if you do it properly.

There are many ways to look at the transition and speed thereof. SL skiers often go directly from full edge set to full edge set while completely unweighted in transition. Because I almost always use a weighted transition and roll very fast, I am almost as fast but with constant carving. What you are saying means to me that you are using a delayed transition to shape the turn where the ski is at its lowest point of tipping and therefore less a less critical maneuver. I rather shape the turn in turn phase two and three where tipping reaches its peak and where I am more able to choose the direction of release.



Versatility is a prize; seeking to do things the way others do them is a good thing.

I agree that versatility is key but not necessarily by skiing like other people. At a certain point in skill dev and to a certain degree there are too many variables in trying to match other skier's movements. Modeling can be very helpful for levels from beginners to advanced intermediates. As an expert, modeling other skiers loses its value significantly. The better we get, the more lonely the path of development becomes.
 

LiquidFeet

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@Jamt, I've been trying to feel whether my inside foot is up next to my outside knee at the fall line. It isn't, but I can feel it getting closer.

You are saying, I think, that it might be impossible to get there if the skier chooses to switch the edges fast. Have I got that right? That doesn't make sense, so I must be misunderstanding you, or my logic has a hole in it.

The goal in switching fast is to get upside down as soon as possible, so as to have more time and space above the fall line to increase the edging. This bends the ski dramatically to create a short arc-to-arc turn. I want to be setting up the new turn right after the fall line.

Is there something obviously wrong with that logic?
 

JESinstr

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As so often is the case, If you want to become proficient in a sport you need to develop the ability to "Pat your head" and "Rub your stomach" at the same timeogsmile.
 

JESinstr

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@LiquidFeet My above post wasn't aimed at you. It was just a general comment and we happened to post at the same time..:(

But in regards to your question for @Jamt , I think he is talking more about larger turns vs short radius turns. In general, I think of short radius turns as involving more rotary and rapid edge building and we therefore make up for quality with quantity, some more than others. For me, I think the "Get over it" drill really enlightens the skier to the power of early and progressive edge engagement.
 

Jamt

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@Jamt, I've been trying to feel whether my inside foot is up next to my outside knee at the fall line. It isn't, but I can feel it getting closer.

You are saying, I think, that it might be impossible to get there if the skier chooses to switch the edges fast. Have I got that right? That doesn't make sense, so I must be misunderstanding you, or my logic has a hole in it.

The goal in switching fast is to get upside down as soon as possible, so as to have more time and space above the fall line to increase the edging. This bends the ski dramatically to create a short arc-to-arc turn. I want to be setting up the new turn right after the fall line.

Is there something obviously wrong with that logic?
It is not so much about how fast you edge the skis, it is about when you put pressure on them. If you immediately "land" on the skis you effectively start the upwards acceleration and will never reach high angles. If you "lift" your feet into the next turn, e.g. by angulating at the hip, you will delay this upwards acceleration. You will reach higher angles and have a shorter and more powerful turn phase.
 

Jamt

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What you are saying means to me that you are using a delayed transition to shape the turn where the ski is at its lowest point of tipping and therefore less a less critical maneuver. I rather shape the turn in turn phase two and three where tipping reaches its peak and where I am more able to choose the direction of release.
I'm sorry I guess I was not very clear. Delaying the edge set means that the real turn shaping is happening when the edge angles are high which coincides with when the CoM is low, because the dominant factor in total edge angle is the CoM BoS relation.
 

Doby Man

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I'm sorry I guess I was not very clear. Delaying the edge set means that the real turn shaping is happening when the edge angles are high which coincides with when the CoM is low, because the dominant factor in total edge angle is the CoM BoS relation.

No need to be sorry. We all prefer our own techniques and regardless of that, it is a bigger challenge than most will realize in how difficult it can be to clearly communicate details of biomechanics across a text only medium with people from such varied backgrounds in skiing and education. I just saw from Pete in Idaho who is claiming mental health difficulties after reading one of my technical posts. His answer for finish turns is to “go for it” and, while it is something I feel no need to challenge, I have found that “going for it” on a mountain with skis on your feet without some sort of technical approach is asking for something altogether different from that of which he may prefer himself.

If we want to start the turn before the fall line, as suggested in your signature, a delayed or slowed transition will not produce that opportunity. We can’t simply push a long/slowed/delayed transition back up the hill into the previous turn. The longer we delay the new edge set, the straighter the transition becomes and the less round the entire turn will be. Slowing and ending the tipping progression and delaying the “flattening” of the ski in the belly of the turn is where the best opportunity for turn shaping is as well as for choosing the timing and direction of release. But slowing tipping during transition simply straightens the path of the skier. The longer we make the transition, the less time, space and opportunity there is to carve the upper part of the turn which gives us more control over the turn, speed management, smoother distribution of forces, more consistent rhythm and better flow as demonstrated by the rounder turn it produces.

Of course, this technique is not for everyone. It is the technique that modern ski racers use and therefore, the one I pursue in my development due to its obvious (to me) technical superiority on groomed terrain. It is the most efficient, effortless and powerful way to charge down the hill for those who wish to push themselves on groomed terrain. Even while technical freeskiing is the only ski discipline from which all other disciplines will draw its technical base and that its corresponding terrain constitutes 95%+ of all skiing vertical facilitated in the world of skiing, the ski media’s highly marketable romance with backcountry powder, trees, steeps and moguls distorts the view away from where a better scope on development could more easily thrive with most skiers. Modern technical freeskiing on groomers allows a much higher level of facilitated skill and athleticism with the lowest level of risk compared to any other terrain. Though, the vast majority of expert skiers do not change their base technique from the point at which it has reached a certain maturity. A boring shame for which may be why that is where I see aging skiers peter out on the sport to one degree or another. There is always so much more to go. We just have to be able to see past our own windshield.
 

Jamt

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No need to be sorry. We all prefer our own techniques and regardless of that, it is a bigger challenge than most will realize in how difficult it can be to clearly communicate details of biomechanics across a text only medium with people from such varied backgrounds in skiing and education. I just saw from Pete in Idaho who is claiming mental health difficulties after reading one of my technical posts. His answer for finish turns is to “go for it” and, while it is something I feel no need to challenge, I have found that “going for it” on a mountain with skis on your feet without some sort of technical approach is asking for something altogether different from that of which he may prefer himself.

If we want to start the turn before the fall line, as suggested in your signature, a delayed or slowed transition will not produce that opportunity. We can’t simply push a long/slowed/delayed transition back up the hill into the previous turn. The longer we delay the new edge set, the straighter the transition becomes and the less round the entire turn will be. Slowing and ending the tipping progression and delaying the “flattening” of the ski in the belly of the turn is where the best opportunity for turn shaping is as well as for choosing the timing and direction of release. But slowing tipping during transition simply straightens the path of the skier. The longer we make the transition, the less time, space and opportunity there is to carve the upper part of the turn which gives us more control over the turn, speed management, smoother distribution of forces, more consistent rhythm and better flow as demonstrated by the rounder turn it produces.

Of course, this technique is not for everyone. It is the technique that modern ski racers use and therefore, the one I pursue in my development due to its obvious (to me) technical superiority on groomed terrain. It is the most efficient, effortless and powerful way to charge down the hill for those who wish to push themselves on groomed terrain. Even while technical freeskiing is the only ski discipline from which all other disciplines will draw its technical base and that its corresponding terrain constitutes 95%+ of all skiing vertical facilitated in the world of skiing, the ski media’s highly marketable romance with backcountry powder, trees, steeps and moguls distorts the view away from where a better scope on development could more easily thrive with most skiers. Modern technical freeskiing on groomers allows a much higher level of facilitated skill and athleticism with the lowest level of risk compared to any other terrain. Though, the vast majority of expert skiers do not change their base technique from the point at which it has reached a certain maturity. A boring shame for which may be why that is where I see aging skiers peter out on the sport to one degree or another. There is always so much more to go. We just have to be able to see past our own windshield.
I am not suggesting to slow the tipping, I'm suggesting to wait with edge engagement until edge angles are sufficient. It often means faster tipping if you measure from flat to max. It means a bit longer float, but the shaping phase will be much more intense. It also means a straighter line, but primarily for the CoM, the ski tracks will still be round and smooth.
It is very common to see beginner racers have a quick transition and immediately "land" on the other edges. If they instead try to smooth out the landing by angulating or having more momentum from the previous turn they will have much more dynamic skiing. Kind on like lifting your feet sideways until you land in a position resembling my avatar.
 

Mike King

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I am not suggesting to slow the tipping, I'm suggesting to wait with edge engagement until edge angles are sufficient. It often means faster tipping if you measure from flat to max. It means a bit longer float, but the shaping phase will be much more intense. It also means a straighter line, but primarily for the CoM, the ski tracks will still be round and smooth.
It is very common to see beginner racers have a quick transition and immediately "land" on the other edges. If they instead try to smooth out the landing by angulating or having more momentum from the previous turn they will have much more dynamic skiing. Kind on like lifting your feet sideways until you land in a position resembling my avatar.
@Jamt, I don't understand your comment here. It seems to me that "tipping" and "edging" have more or less the same outcome: affecting the edge angle. So, isn't the result of tipping to result in edge engagement? I don't see how you delay edge engagement while building edge angle unless the edge is off of the snow?

Mike
 

Jamt

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@Jamt, I don't understand your comment here. It seems to me that "tipping" and "edging" have more or less the same outcome: affecting the edge angle. So, isn't the result of tipping to result in edge engagement? I don't see how you delay edge engagement while building edge angle unless the edge is off of the snow?

Mike
Let me give you a simple example. If you are a bit inclined and hip angulate violently you will lift you skis off the snow up and laterally out to the side. The skis will then be tipped/edged but not engaged. When you land again they will engage with great power. For edges to be properly engaged you need a proper combination of edging and pressure. The dynamics of the pressure is IMO one of the most difficult aspects to teach, it is so much in the timing of the movement. My attempt to summarize what is needed is the last part of my signature "Accelerate up or down, always."
 

Mike King

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Let me give you a simple example. If you are a bit inclined and hip angulate violently you will lift you skis off the snow up and laterally out to the side. The skis will then be tipped/edged but not engaged. When you land again they will engage with great power. For edges to be properly engaged you need a proper combination of edging and pressure. The dynamics of the pressure is IMO one of the most difficult aspects to teach, it is so much in the timing of the movement. My attempt to summarize what is needed is the last part of my signature "Accelerate up or down, always."
Thanks! This sounds like it could describe a stivot (or at least the way that Hirscher performs a stivot) but I suspect the application is broader than that. PSIA"s fifth fundamental of skiing is "Regulate the magnitude of pressure created through ski/snow contact" -- it sounds like what you are describing is this fundamental and it's relationship to edging. If only I could accomplish the same -- it is a tough fundamental to achieve competence in.
 

slowrider

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Float like a butterfly and sting like a bee.
You can tell when you have high edge angles. Your hips and legs get cold from being close to the snowpack. I'v been working on this SL turn off piste but only when the snowpack can support the weight.
 

Jamt

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Thanks! This sounds like it could describe a stivot (or at least the way that Hirscher performs a stivot) but I suspect the application is broader than that. PSIA"s fifth fundamental of skiing is "Regulate the magnitude of pressure created through ski/snow contact" -- it sounds like what you are describing is this fundamental and it's relationship to edging. If only I could accomplish the same -- it is a tough fundamental to achieve competence in.
It could be a stivot or it could be a clean edge set. Depends which direction the skis are pointing when they are engaged again. For many racers it is important to avoid the temptation to rotate the ski and set the edge early, and instead have patience and continue edging until the edges can be set in "more carving" manner.
In the case of Hirscher, he is just fenomenal in having a substantial "ski direction"-"CoM movement direction" angle, and yet have a very clean entry. Amazing timing combined with great strength.
 

Kneale Brownson

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Thanks! This sounds like it could describe a stivot (or at least the way that Hirscher performs a stivot) but I suspect the application is broader than that. PSIA"s fifth fundamental of skiing is "Regulate the magnitude of pressure created through ski/snow contact" -- it sounds like what you are describing is this fundamental and it's relationship to edging. If only I could accomplish the same -- it is a tough fundamental to achieve competence in.

Mike, there is a continuum to the "regulate the magnitude of pressure" just as with the range of edging from scarve to carve. JAMT is describing one end of the continuum.
 

Jamt

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Mike, there is a continuum to the "regulate the magnitude of pressure" just as with the range of edging from scarve to carve. JAMT is describing one end of the continuum.
Good point. In some sense it is much easier to have dynamics in short intense SL turns. In long turns you have to be much more patient and fluent with all movements. Very easy to end up static otherwise.
 

LiquidFeet

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@Jamt,
Technical question.
Say a slalom racer is initiating a turn, and has the skis light and traveling NOT in the direction they are pointed.
Then the racer "engages the edges" and immediately carves. The racer chooses where to switch to carving.

What does the racer have to do to make those edges engage at precisely that chosen spot? The "landing" and pressure change is going to be quite dramatic.
 

Jamt

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@Jamt,
Technical question.
Say a slalom racer is initiating a turn, and has the skis light and traveling NOT in the direction they are pointed.
Then the racer "engages the edges" and immediately carves. The racer chooses where to switch to carving.

What does the racer have to do to make those edges engage at precisely that chosen spot? The "landing" and pressure change is going to be quite dramatic.

Depends on how large the offset angle is.

The force required to absorb the energy due to offset angle is given by (m v^2 Sin[alpha ]^2)/(2 d), where
m is mass
v is speed
alpha is offset angle
d is distance that energy is absorbed ( either due to body contracting or skidding)

For example, if the mass is 75 kg and the speed is 10 ms/s (36 kph) and the angle is 5 degrees, and distance is 5 cm (reasonable for no skidding) the force is
570N (58 kg)
That is not hard.
If the angle grows to 15 degrees, which is quite common in SL, the force grows to
5024 N (512 kg)
This is off course super hard, even for Marcel.
we may have to skid a little bit so that d grows to e.g. 15 cm and then the forces become
1675N (171 kg).
Easy for Marcel, but not for mortals.

With the above numbers, if we manage to start a carved turn with a radius of 4.48 m we will get the same force after the initial impact force. This gives a perfect feeling of skid to carve "transition". If the carving force is a lot lower or higher it is more of a jerky feeling that makes balancing difficult. For example "beginners" may have a smaller carve force, and may end up with more weight on the inside ski in the carving phase due to this.
4.48 is quite a normal turn radius in a high edge SL turn.

That was a bit of background to your question "What does the racer have to do to make those edges engage at precisely that chosen spot?"

The racer has to use the best offset angle and time the corresponding skidding/absorption using pretty much all fundamental movements available.
Not easy, but easier if you are strong and have great equipment setup.
 

Mike King

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Mike, there is a continuum to the "regulate the magnitude of pressure" just as with the range of edging from scarve to carve. JAMT is describing one end of the continuum.
Yep, I get that. What I've come to understand is that this 5th fundamental is perhaps the most difficult fundamental of them all as it requires mastery of the blend of all the other fundamentals to be able to shape the distribution of pressure in a turn. I'm not there yet, but working on it.

Mike
 

LiquidFeet

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@Jamt,
Thank you. That helps. I've got two follow-up questions.

From what you say, impact force and offset angle need to be in just the right relationship for a skier to make the skid-carve shift happen. The skier can manipulate the magnitude of the impact force by skidding and/or absorbing with body contraction. And the skier can manipulate the way the skis are pointing as they skid across the snow.

First question: Is getting those two factors in just the right relationship the only thing the skier does to shift from skid to carve? Or does the skier, in addition, initiate the switch by rolling the outside ski to a higher edge angle, or slide that foot back to add more shovel pressure, or flex the inside leg more, or something else?

In other words, are manipulating those two factors the only things the skier does to make the switch happen?

Second question: Offset angle is between the direction the ski is pointing, and the direction of travel of the body (its momentum), right?

We are talking about this as if it yields to engineering-think as if it were rocket science. I know skiing is never this clean, but still it's fun to do the thinking.
 
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