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flat or rockered tail to handle crust

Sidewinder

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I am looking to replace my Salomon MTN 95's, which I use both on and off the resort. I find that skinning laps early season (prior to opening and grooming) is difficult due to the frequent breakable crust we have here in the northeast. Also find this when skiing off resort in the local countryside. I almost end up snowplowing down and stepping around to change direction. I definitely realize that these are just difficult conditions, and technique is the main player, however if there were certain characteristics in a ski that would help in these conditions I would look in that direction.Thinking a bit wider, and particularly wondering if a ski with a rockered tail will handle it better than one with a flat tail, although I expect the trade off will be less grip on icy groomers at the local ski hill. Would love to hear if anyone has discovered an improved ability to conquer this with any certain type of ski, or any particular ski.
 

cantunamunch

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Tapering, turned-up tips and damp forebody are champions for breakable crust - that's what they were designed for.

Wide is fine but you don't want the point of maximum width to be the part that's doing the breaking; you want the maximum width further back.
 
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Noodler

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Tapering, turned-up tips and damp forebody are champions for breakable crust - that's what they were designed for.

Wide is fine but you don't want the point of maximum width to be the part that's doing the breaking; you want the maximum width further back.

Exactly. The tail has very little to do with the performance in crusty conditions as long as it can be released by the skier. Clearly a rockered tail will reduce the contact area, but if it's breakable crust with some depth, it's not going to help all that much. The skier needs to bring the skills and the tail can be dealt with. OTOH, the tip design is something that will fight you in these conditions and is difficult to "override" even with the skills present. Focus on the tip design and sidecut taper.
 

Josh Matta

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neither will matter much...

the only skis I have used that can EASILY ski breakable rain/sun crust/wind slab in eastern woods are my 4frnt hojis, Renegades, and Devastator. I am guessing the Praxis Protest with a stiff lay up will act the same, the Renegades are the easiest in that stuff of what I own.

The deal is any ski that ski any sort of crust well is going to suck on packed snow. I would keep you MTN 95, and get pair of Renegade for any days that the snow is to crusted to ski on the MTN 95s, They will not ski groomers well, they will try to break you legs in hard bumps, but they are easily the best ski I have ever tried in all sorts of crust and upside snow especially when tight turns are needed. The magic of the Renegades is they do not flex, there isnt really any sidecut and the middle is wider than the tip and tail, meaning you can just stand in the middle of the ski and tip it, like you would a pair of groomer carved and if you need to pivot you can pivot in the heaviest crustiest of nasty snow and it will still work, never deflect or catching edge, in fact I have NEVEr caught an edge on those skis.

it would have been better taking video of the other skiers struggling but this is some really stiff wind crust on the Renegades.


my review

https://www.pugski.com/threads/4frnt-renegade.689/
 
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TS
Sidewinder

Sidewinder

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Exactly. The tail has very little to do with the performance in crusty conditions as long as it can be released by the skier. Clearly a rockered tail will reduce the contact area, but if it's breakable crust with some depth, it's not going to help all that much. The skier needs to bring the skills and the tail can be dealt with. OTOH, the tip design is something that will fight you in these conditions and is difficult to "override" even with the skills present. Focus on the tip design and sidecut taper.

Awesome. Thanks for the input guys!
Noodler - when you mention side cut taper, are you referring to the turn radius? Just wondering how this aspect (long, medium or short) comes into play.
 

Noodler

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Awesome. Thanks for the input guys!
Noodler - when you mention side cut taper, are you referring to the turn radius? Just wondering how this aspect (long, medium or short) comes into play.

Ski taper is a "deeper" view of the sidecut (turn radius) of the ski's geometry. Let's dive in...

In recent times the term "taper" is used quite often to describe the shape of just the tip or tail (as in "early taper" tips typically seen in 5-point ski designs). This is where the tip narrows earlier than other designs. However, for many years before 5-point designs showed up, we discussed the ski's overall taper; this describes how the sidecut of the ski's forebody compares to the tail of the ski. This is a calculation that provides a value that communicates the relative comparison of the sidecut as it moves down the ski from the tip to the tail.

To calculate a single value that communicates the degree of overall taper, we use the typical sidecut dimensions most skiers are familiar with. Unfortunately I do not recall at the moment the reasoning behind the math, but here is the accepted formula for ski taper: SIN((TIP-TAIL)/MID)*100. What you'll find if you crunch the numbers for some of your skis is that skis with a high taper value have a relatively larger "difference" from the tip width to the waist width (aka "tip cut"), than the tail width to the waist width (aka "tail cut"). The lower the taper, the more tail cut that is present in relation to the tip cut.

So what does this all mean when you put the skis on the snow? Generally, a ski with a higher taper value will have a relatively easier to release tail. Skis with lower taper values are often seen from bi-directional skis (think "switch skiing" skis). Also, if an SL ski has a relatively lower taper than other SL skis under consideration, it probably has a higher degree of tail cut, thus you can expect that tail to be more "demanding" and less willing to release the turn (seen as a willingness to "smear" or "brush" a turn).

I know this goes way deeper than most skiers care to ever think about, but for those of us so inclined (and with a large active quiver), it's good to understand the science behind why a certain ski's performance works well for you versus skis that don't. At least that's the value I find in this.
 
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Ken_R

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I am looking to replace my Salomon MTN 95's, which I use both on and off the resort. I find that skinning laps early season (prior to opening and grooming) is difficult due to the frequent breakable crust we have here in the northeast. Also find this when skiing off resort in the local countryside. I almost end up snowplowing down and stepping around to change direction. I definitely realize that these are just difficult conditions, and technique is the main player, however if there were certain characteristics in a ski that would help in these conditions I would look in that direction.Thinking a bit wider, and particularly wondering if a ski with a rockered tail will handle it better than one with a flat tail, although I expect the trade off will be less grip on icy groomers at the local ski hill. Would love to hear if anyone has discovered an improved ability to conquer this with any certain type of ski, or any particular ski.

Breakable crust is just awful to ski no matter what ski. Wider skis with forgiving flex tend to help somewhat.
 

Noodler

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Breakable crust is just awful to ski no matter what ski. Wider skis with forgiving flex tend to help somewhat.

Yes. I'll offer, on the skills side of the equation, that retraction turns (flex to release) are the order of the day for me in this type of snow. You could possibly use up-unweighting if you are very aggressive and can find enough of a platform to get "up and out" of the crust layer. I tend to just choose my crud-buster skis and plow through it with strong flexion and tipping. @Ken_R actually skied with me on a day with somewhat crusty (quite heavy snow) where he saw the results of a focus on strong retraction and tipping to manage the conditions.
 

Josh Matta

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Breakable crust is just awful to ski no matter what ski. Wider skis with forgiving flex tend to help somewhat.

its really isnt on the renegades... and like I have been saying the ski doesnt flex it just hold its shape and goes though that stuff.

yeah Flex to release alone will not work at low speed low angle tight trees in the east in breakable crust, but what would I know over someone who has NEVER skied in the east.
 

Noodler

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its really isnt on the renegades... and like I have been saying the ski doesnt flex it just hold its shape and goes though that stuff.

yeah Flex to release alone will not work at low speed low angle tight trees in the east in breakable crust, but what would I know over someone who has NEVER skied in the east.

C'mon Josh. I guess with the many years that have past, you have forgotten skiing with me and also forgotten that I grew up skiing the Eastern mountains. I do wonder how my new found skills developed in CO would translate back in Eastern conditions. So I can't definitely say you're wrong. All I can say is that I trust these skills to provide me with much more capability for whatever the conditions dish out.
 

Josh Matta

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The thing is your a good skier, but I have seen MANY good skiers fall apart in are weird condition/terrain and I am not talking ice. Ice if it has texture is EASY.

What I am trying to say, is there was about 10-15 days this year where there was untracked snow in the woods, and I wouldnt have even attempted to ski it on anything less than my hojis/renegades could I have done it on E100? maybe but the reality is the risk reward jsut isnt there then. The chance of messing up on a ski like E100 versus a Renegade in breakable crust is just so much HIGHER. It has nothing to with deepness, it has everything to do with crust/tightness of terrain.

Ill stand by my statement that any ski in a good ski on packed snow will be awful in actual turn or get hurt breakable crust on anything less than steeper terrain. On really steep terrain in breakable you can just do retraction hop turns with out much effort because the ground falls aways so fast.
 

Ken_R

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Yes. I'll offer, on the skills side of the equation, that retraction turns (flex to release) are the order of the day for me in this type of snow. You could possibly use up-unweighting if you are very aggressive and can find enough of a platform to get "up and out" of the crust layer. I tend to just choose my crud-buster skis and plow through it with strong flexion and tipping. @Ken_R actually skied with me on a day with somewhat crusty (quite heavy snow) where he saw the results of a focus on strong retraction and tipping to manage the conditions.

Definitely saw it!
its really isnt on the renegades... and like I have been saying the ski doesnt flex it just hold its shape and goes though that stuff.

yeah Flex to release alone will not work at low speed low angle tight trees in the east in breakable crust, but what would I know over someone who has NEVER skied in the east.

The only thing I remember about skiing in the east is the ice. Shiny green/blue ice :eek::D and how much it hurt... I do remember some nice powder followed by rain and then the crust formed...:eek: Honestly, that was so long ago that I barely remember and the skis were terrible back then :roflmao:, my skiing was too (still is I think) :huh::roflmao:
 

AngryAnalyst

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I'm going to back up @Josh Matta on this one (not that he needs it). When I ski crust I like less side cut, more rocker and a fair amount of mass. 4FRNT Hoji line (Renegade, Hoji, Raven) and Devastator seem like the right sort of shapes to me though I have not used any of them (need to mount up some Devastators).

If you wanted a bit more versatility you could get a rocker/camber/rocker design, somewhat contra a few others I think the tail rocker does help. I would agree that ultimately it's on the user, not the ski, to release the tails so you don't get caught up but as long as we all agree that's the goal I think having an easier to release tail with less contact can only help.
 

Wilhelmson

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Well dang on epic the advice would have been to grow a set and click into some gs skis. Most of us who have been skiing for a while have probably taken the worst type of skis into crust, bring your legs and point the skis in a downhill direction, turn and survive or go back seat and bust that stuff up.

For the sake of prolonging your knees' usefulness a stiff rockered tail works ok for me but I'm not great at staying perfectly balanced over the middle so the tails can get sloppy. I preferred my lighter narrower 86 width with a straight tail as they were easy to move around and the tail would grab without sliding too much on hard crust or I could ride it out straight if it broke through.
 

ski otter 2

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I hesitate to add here, since I haven't a clue what types of skis in the abstract are good on severe crust. I happen to have a pair of skis that make bad crust easy, however, at least here in Colorado, so I'll mention them.

Fatypus D-Senders 106 - 186, I think is the length (a brand made here in Colorado). From maybe four years ago. The D-Sender is still in production, with changes that probably make it better: mine have small rocker tip and tail, and the current ones have more. Other skis I have work well too for crust (Rossi Sickles 111, K2 Pettitor 120), but the Ds just are able to make it easier, more tank-like: on the few days when nobody is skiing snow off piste with a thick re-freeze layer suspended somewhere in the powder layers, there I am, happy as a duck.

That said, not sure if they're all that great in tight trees, like @Josh Matta & the Renegades. (Sounds like a great name for a rock band, eh?) They do more short to mid GS-like turns, I think, in fairly versatile manner - around 14 to 25 radius, maybe, at least for me. That said, I'm not asking for much slarving/pivoting from them, but mostly carving behavior, as near as I can tell. (The next generation version with more rocker probably has more of that pivot, though). So I'm not sure, either. I have never tuned them for extra slarve, nor afterwards tested them for pivot. Also, these skis might slarve/pivot well in really steep, awful terrain, not sure. I don't go there any longer.

The D-Senders were originally a pro big mountain comp ski, in 192 or something, with successful competitors using it for extreme competition. Mine were the next size down, and with a bit less of the burly construction, apparently, of the true comp length. Also, this model was in a design transition - to more rocker at both ends, and my year, only the top comp model had that great rocker, whereas mine were the last that didn't (unbeknownst to me when I got them used and cheap). So mine really require, for me, a centered, square-shouldered approach - to really emphasize that I am square and centered in the direction the ski is traveling, steadily. Then it works, in fairly forgiving manner.

My feeble stab at describing the shape of these otherwise: they are fairly straight (little sidecut), and stiff. Fat and stiff. They have just a bit of float up front, to act like an ice-breaker a bit, riding up over a bit, then crushing through. Then the rest of the ski (and me) follow in the broken channel. (By contrast, the Sickles carve a bit more underneath, dependably, and yet can pivotslarve well also, once down there; and the K2 Pettitors, in the 189/191 length, bulldoze, float and slarve through thick crust all at once, very stiff also. So what they all three may have in common is little side cut and stiff running length for most of the ski (though not in the last bit of tip and tail, each slightly differently. They all three kill crud in general, and can carve very well on groomers. But only the Pettitors truly float. And only the D-Senders are up for that rare (at least around here) truly awful crust day off piste.

Note: there is another ski that is similar to the D-Sender, also with its roots in being a pro extreme comp ski: it's the first ski Black Crows made, the Corvus, also around 106 in width, I believe. I demoed that ski, and sought out crud with it. Although I only skied it that one, fairly normal "day after," it seems to me that it also may behave like my D-Senders, and be a good candidate for a bad crust (stiff, fat, little sidecut, more rocker like the actual comp ski. But in shorter lengths, at least the Corvus now is toned down and less burly than this ski was originally, I gather.)
 
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Wilhelmson

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They have just a bit of float up front, to act like an ice-breaker a bit, riding up over a bit, then crushing through. Then the rest of the ski (and me) follow in the broken channel.

Sounds like you're a better skier than I but this is what I was trying to get at.
 

ski otter 2

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^^^^^^Glad to help, a relief. But, at any rate, it's at least in part the ski, not me. That ski (and others out there) makes it easier to carve and track through whatever uneven roughness/ice there is, while it ice-breaks, seems like.

It's nice they make such amazing skis.
 

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