FIS increases minimum race penalties

[K2 Rat]

According this Italian report, the FIS is raising the minimum race penalties except for World Cup and Olympics, which remains at zero. Continental Cups go from 6 to 15 , National Championships from 9 to 20, and regular FIS races will be 23, if I understand this correctly. As we know, guys (and gals) have gone to NZ Continental Cup races and scored a 6 point result and then be no where near that result elsewhere. For example, Robby Kelley scored 6 odd last summer in NZ, but did not get a second run in the WC races he was in this year. To score 6 points in those WC races, you had to be in the top 5. It is pretty hard to score in WC unless you are quite good and can be close to the winner's time. I guess the FIS does not think it is fair for guys to score 6 points elsewhere and not be anywhere near that in WC races. Alice Robinson had 10 GS points that she scored in Nor-Ams. But you would have to be in the top ten in WC to get those points, which she is not. I am not sure the system had to be changed, but I guess it does not really hurt anyone. Most people's points will go up and we will just have to figure out what "good" points are in the future. Right now, a real good college race has maybe 25 FIS points and maybe in the future that might be 40 or so??

https://raceskimagazine.it/coppe-co...mbia-regole-anche-per-i-campionati-nazionali/

 

[Muleski]

Yes. Changes happening. Lots of "sorting out" to be done, in terms of what it means, and how to manage it. And best ti not overthink it.
The fact remains, the best skiers, the fastest, who do ski cleanly and fast for two runs will i the end have the lowest points.
This is intended, actually to make World Cup results more important and to reward them. That makes a lot of sense.

It's going to be confusing for a while, or will look different. The world rankings will pretty much stay the same for those to whom it matters. The racers point profiles will look a bit higher if not scored on the WC. What this means is that pretty much most who ski two clean runs in their first few WC's should be able to "score."

But yes, every FIS licensed competitor will start this season, in July, with recalculated points. Higher ones. Which we need to grasp are no big deal. If you kid had a 55 point GS profile, and now it's 72, or whatever, he did not get slower.

The people who I hear from who are kind of worked up over this are largely parents who's kids, with their full and generous support, have been chasing points all over the country and globe. This will also mean that some of the American FIS races, normally in the spring, that have been a bit notorious for producing big point drops may not be quite as attractive. Think Lutsen.

I think it's going to take some getting used to, and seeing that it makes sense. It should be about more than points, at a lot of levels, IMO. And frankly, scoring points on the WC should mean something. As @K2 Rat notes, we in particular have had a lot of men who have earned 6 point profiles over the years who have gone on to be very mediocre at best on the WC. Even with a world ranking of 30-35, and starting WC races in that range, many struggled to get a second run. This point profiles were quietly considered a joke by many, think European coaches. A six point profile earned on the Europa Cup was a very, very different thing.

This was voted on at the recent FIS Congress, and then adopted by the FIS Council. There were questions about implementing it, but a lot of rework was done. The initial proposal was refined a bit. I had not paid a lot of attention, until it's finalized. There had been discussion of domestic FIS penalties, and the FIS-Uni penalties being a bit lower, perhaps. And they were actually lowered, and equalized at 23. Again these are MINIMUM penalties. Don't expect to see more than a tiny handful a year.

BTW, a couple of other thoughts. Robby has scored well in NZ and Australia for years. But last summer, he scored a 6.97 and an 11.89. Not his best summer. Not every Continental Cup race has a 6 point penalty. It all depends on the factors that enter into a penalty calculation. However, regardless of the field and results, the minimum penalty for those races {and Nor Ams}has been six. Even if it calculated lower.

Alice Robinson is a phenom. She is a Kiwi who skied at Sugar Bowl. She won two GS's in her first FIS year, in NZ, last summer. A 14.90 and an 18.18. Later in the season she scored a 6 when she won the NorAm GS at Panorama, and she had an 11.90 in a domestic FIS race in Austria, with a stacked field. She is very, very legit. No point giveaways in her profile. Hopefully she will stay on a good trajectory. Has never happened for a Kiwi. Perhaps we'll see her on an alternative independent program at some point.......

So, IMO, no need to be concerned about this. It will all sort out and make sense. It may actually be good for the USST's planning, and development. It will eliminate thinking very young skiers with some good skiing on the NorAm circuit and such are ready to kill it on the WC. That should be clear, I hope. Old habits and thinking dies hard, though.

 

[spackler]

I think the big change is going to be in the start position of WC races for a lot of North American based tech athletes. Coming back and racing in a couple of mid-season NorAms was a great and artificial way to get 6 points and back into the low 30s on the WC first run start lists.Can think of a lot of Canadian athletes who have done this over the years. Won't be happening anymore.

 

[Muleski]

I think you’ll see things move to the point where certain point thresholds that we have come to be familiar with have different numbers attached to them. That 6 point threshold will become 15. I think you’ll still have plenty of people hunting two Continental Cup wins....and don’t see any change in the relative ease of doing so. Aus/NZ in the summer, NorAms, Europa Cup.

The only way to score below 15 will be on the WC. And it truly means something....more than before. They all have 0 point penalties, and the question is how many people who have profiles of 15 or more under the new system will finish with race points that will enable them to “score” sub 15. Even a 15 point skier will be starting at 30+. Perhaps as the lists come out through the season it may be more like 40+. We’ll see.

It should actually help some of our North American guys improve their position on the start lists....if they produce the results.

I just looked at a few of last year’s WC results.
At Levi, in the men’s SL, the last finisher in 24th, scored 11.83 points.

Later in the season, at some of the brutal SL’s, it was tougher. At Kitz, Hirscher, in second, scored a 6.44. The 5th place finisher was at 14.73. The 22nd was at 34.24.

Those results do not change under this new program.

In GS, you’ll see the same general theme.
One second out, in a roughy 2:30 GS is about 7 points. Shorter, maybe easier races, it’s more like 9. Generally speaking, the top 15 are scoring under 15 points.

So there are opportunities. But not easy ones. This will take time to sort out. In most WC tech races, you’ll see a few high bibs finish a second run, but it’s very rare to see a sub 15 point race.

So I think you’ll see a lot of interest in NorAms, and huge interest in NorAm crowns and those guaranteed WC starts. Particularly if we have more independents.

I think this will all be good. It drives many a coach crazy trying to drive home the point that if you ski fast, and fight through two pretty good runs {not many error free runs, even on the WC} the points will follow.

But...if you are fast enough to get to a 15 point profile, manage your schedule to make that possibly happen. I have a feeling that it’s still going to put you in a great start position should you get to the WC, and you’ll help with other domestic races getting close to the minimum penalties.

I have not seen a list with the “new” points yet. I am under the impression that it will start with points “adjusted” based on the new penalties. I know that FIS has modeled it all out. And talking to those who will be impacted, their rankings will be essentially the same, points higher other than for those who’s profiles were earned on the WC.

So....15 is the new six. I think. And WC scoring becomes a touch easier and a lot more important. Hopefully that log jam around WR’s of 30 will eventually be gone.

That’s what I hear, from people working through this with some athlete management strategy and thought.

 

[K2 Rat]

I think you’ll see things move to the point where certain point thresholds that we have come to be familiar with have different numbers attached to them. That 6 point threshold will become 15. I think you’ll still have plenty of people hunting two Continental Cup wins....and don’t see any change in the relative ease of doing so. Aus/NZ in the summer, NorAms, Europa Cup.

The only way to score below 15 will be on the WC. And it truly means something....more than before. They all have 0 point penalties, and the question is how many people who have profiles of 15 or more under the new system will finish with race points that will enable them to “score” sub 15. Even a 15 point skier will be starting at 30+. Perhaps as the lists come out through the season it may be more like 40+. We’ll see.

It should actually help some of our North American guys improve their position on the start lists....if they produce the results.

I just looked at a few of last year’s WC results.
At Levi, in the men’s SL, the last finisher in 24th, scored 11.83 points.

Later in the season, at some of the brutal SL’s, it was tougher. At Kitz, Hirscher, in second, scored a 6.44. The 5th place finisher was at 14.73. The 22nd was at 34.24.

Those results do not change under this new program.

In GS, you’ll see the same general theme.
One second out, in a roughy 2:30 GS is about 7 points. Shorter, maybe easier races, it’s more like 9. Generally speaking, the top 15 are scoring under 15 points.

So there are opportunities. But not easy ones. This will take time to sort out. In most WC tech races, you’ll see a few high bibs finish a second run, but it’s very rare to see a sub 15 point race.

So I think you’ll see a lot of interest in NorAms, and huge interest in NorAm crowns and those guaranteed WC starts. Particularly if we have more independents.

I think this will all be good. It drives many a coach crazy trying to drive home the point that if you ski fast, and fight through two pretty good runs {not many error free runs, even on the WC} the points will follow.

But...if you are fast enough to get to a 15 point profile, manage your schedule to make that possibly happen. I have a feeling that it’s still going to put you in a great start position should you get to the WC, and you’ll help with other domestic races getting close to the minimum penalties.

I have not seen a list with the “new” points yet. I am under the impression that it will start with points “adjusted” based on the new penalties. I know that FIS has modeled it all out. And talking to those who will be impacted, their rankings will be essentially the same, points higher other than for those who’s profiles were earned on the WC.

So....15 is the new six. I think. And WC scoring becomes a touch easier and a lot more important. Hopefully that log jam around WR’s of 30 will eventually be gone.

That’s what I hear, from people working through this with some athlete management strategy and thought.

Not sure this is true and don't think it matters much, but Breezy Johnson's Mom says that points will not get adjusted. They will just go up naturally, if need be, at end of next season when you replace your points with results from next season.

 

[Muleski]

I saw that Heather {Noble}, Breezy's mom, posted that on the World Cup Discussion Group on Facebook. Interesting. That's new to me. I'm curious. Going to check with a few people who have just finalized summer plans for three different WC skiers, all independent. The emphasis on not just training for at least a month in NZ, was to hopefully bag a win to two in some Continental Cup races, and hopefully have them be ones that clap out at 15 point minimum penalties {just like sixes in the old days!}. If the point profiles are not going to be recalculated and normalized for the season {FIS has a large group of analysts who did that work, presented it at the congress, and have it ready to go....}, then this whole thing becomes a mess at the top. It becomes a huge mess for those who are moving up the ranks quickly. Like a large number of out youngest USST athletes. If winning a Continental Cup, NorAm, etc. yields you at best 15 points, yet there are people who will keep test 6-7-8 point profiles while never scoring on the WC, that is really going to be strange.

More info to follow....I hope. I know that FIS was ready to flip the switch. I would not likely affect Amy athletes who had only WC results in their point profile calculations, BTW. All WC's have a 0 point penalty. So this would have zero effect on Breezy, one way or another, IMO. I haven't checked her results and profile. In DH, at least I think it's all WC. SG, though, probably not.

Good idea, devil in the details. We'll see. If the points are not adjusted, it's not quite as simple as Heather has alluded to. IMO. But I'm wrong plenty of the time.......HaHa.

 

[Primoz]

Here I don't really agree with you @Muleski It might be sort of mess for year or so, but I don't think it would be really big mess. Those who got those points last year, will probably keep them, but there won't be new ones coming. Otherwise I actually agree with this change. Picking right races could basically provide you number around 30-35 for 2 seasons without doing anything. I agree winning EC race basically puts you into top 15 on WC, but winning some South America cup in Chile, with 4 guys from your team and maybe 3 guys from some other European team that's currently on training in that location, while rest of them are local Sunday skiers from resort is not really on same pair, yet you got same benefits. Of course it's still not easy to win even that, but it's not hard enough to entitle you to number 31 on WC startlist. So I'm actually all for this change. Even if it might be a bit of mess for first few months.

 

[Muleski]

@Primoz, I’m obviously not bring clear, as I agree that this is a good thing. I like the change. I have seen a lot of skiers, paricularly men, who have “earned” those 6 point profiles in Continental Cups. ended up at 31 or thereabouts on the WCSL, and have unfortunately done very little in terms of results and even second runs on the WC. Have never skier to EC podiums or close. So the conclusion of many others, which I agree with is that it’s not the same, say, as producing rose points on the EC, let alone on the WC.

I want to see it happen as soon as possible, and the confusion is that depending on how recently you produced those points, through say NorAm wins, or even 9 in National Champs wins, the longer you’ll keep them unless FIS adjusts the base #1 list to take into account the new system. I know they did the work to be able to do that. Some may have seen it. I saw a list or two, and saw how the world rankings were similar, not identical, but example somebody at six points would have been immediately at about 15-16, depending on how their six points races were redone.

That would have meant that right away, the new system would “work.” I guess it was/is going to be too confusing, if I’m fact there will be no point adjustment. And we’ll have. Group of people who have points 6-15, in particular, advantaged for as long as they have a profile based on those results. Unless that time period changes it can be two years. That’s too long.

There were mens WC tech races last season where the second place finisher has over six points! And even in those extreme ones, I’d like to see more people “scoring”. Until those profiles for the 6 pointers and close move up, the pipeline will be crowded. That’s all.

People are still going to seek out wins in NorAms, in NZ, Australia, Chile. But with the new system, things should get “stretched out” so that those results will no longer plant you around 31st. Agree, and look forward to it!

I know many who have had 6 point profiles over the years, and I think ALL of them have said to me that “my world ranking based on that is a joke, but I hope to do something with that start position.” Few have.

My concern is for those on the rise. Now you need to earn your points with the new penalties, and if that takes place while a large number of others “keep” those 6 to 15 point profiles, you are going to be artificially held back. Your WR, rather that being too low with a 6-7-8 point profile, will be “too high” until those folks adjust up, above you.

I’m thinking of a person who produced that siv point profile or close in March or so of 2018. Keeping those points for two seasons...too long. That’s why I was hoping to adjust them all and start right out that way. Otherwise this will be ongoing and confusing....and will piss many off. “Death by a thousand cuts.”

So I THINK we’re saying the same thing. I think it’s a good thing. The thinking that “I can’t score on the WC, even with good finishes, so I need to go score some 6-7-8’s or whatever” going away is good. Having results in WC events should count.

Now the sooner the WCSL is realistic the better. Just looking at the current points lists, eating for it to work out will take a long time.

Of course anything that needs change in this sport takes a long time!

I know that’s long winded. Hope it’s somewhat clear.

 

[Primoz]

You were clear @Muleski no problem with that. Only thing I didn't agree with you is that not recalculating current point to new ones would make big mess. For that I think it wouldn't really be much of mess if it won't happen. It might not be completely fair, but it wouldn't create really huge mess either, well at least in my opinion.
With everything else about this change, we basically have exactly same opinion

 

[Muleski]

@ Primoz, I have a younger friend coaching an athlete who is coming back from injury and surgery. "Ready to go", and very, very in this comeback. The point profile is on "the old basis", about 16 points. Athlete, by any measure is faster. That kid is going to be playing a very unfair game. Winning a couple of Continental Cups will now lower the 16 points to 15. If the posts don't change at the start of the season, that 15 points is going to have a world ranking of over 150 in both tech events for this skier. So.....when you look at it that way, it's going to take a long time for all of those profiles, not earned the WC {and some not on the EC}, but calculated on the old basis to rise. Unless FIS does change the rules. That's my point. Having those the way up {or down in terms of points} playing by one set of rules while those others maybe able to sit with their current points, isn't the best. How many men had six GS points, 6.00, ay the end of the season? I think there were six or seven, all with a WR of 31.

You think it won't be a big deal. I think that it will be. My understanding is that they were going to adopt the recalculated points as the base points its for 2018-2019, but that may not be the case. I could care less about the actual points, other than how they impact WC start positions for those on the way up. Scoring form the 60's isn't so doable. Hard.

Eventually, I do think this will be much better. If I had an athlete, just smoking people who carry-over their "old" 6-8-10 points, but unable to get below 15, even with CC wins, that's a problem. If the skiers are Austrian, it will be a bigger problem, IMO. So now you have to wait up to two years for the other's points together recalculated, and to go up?

Guess we'll see. I'm easily confused!

 

[Primoz]

True in such cases it will be big deal. Honestly, I didn't think on chance like this. I was more thinking about "normal" racers, where most of them will be equal and those earned 6 points last summer in South America and New Zealand will (ab)use their points for another year. For that, they would get their benefits either way even if no change. But it's true in your case it's going to be super unfair.
Another thing is, do we have real official info if FIS is going to be recalculating or just leaving them like they are and using new system from now on? Personally I don't have any info, but it's also true, I'm not super interested in this (doesn't influence me either way, so it's not my priority to worry about).

 

[Muleski]

I have no firm info. Seems like different people have differening opinions. If something that seems clear comes my way, I’ll post.

I think it only affects those who are up and coming and real close. We have a dozen or so in this country. Most countries do. Of you ended the year with 15-20 points, or even 12-14. This new think doesn’t help. You could be skiing VERY fast, much faster than some 6-8-10 point skiers, yet you’ll be hoping to get stuck at 15 or close, while others’ points eventually climb.

Think about the best young ones......I mean close to starting on the WC young.

Oh, well!!

 

[Lifer]

Discussion was (and is) that as the list is ''zeroed' to the new penalty mins, what level current points were earned at will have weight. In other words, 25 points earned at a FIS race, vs a NorAm, vs a World Cup will have weight. So, what Breezy's mom said is not off base for WC athletes.

It will be interesting to see what happens to the 25 pointer rankings who did not earn their results at the WC or CC level.

 

[Muleski]

Correct, no real issue for anybody who has a sub 6 point profile, or even ONE result that is in their point profile calculation, from a WC The WC penalty is already 0 for every race. If you have only one WC result, to do the math, you'd need to adjust up other.

To be honest,I don't think there is any need to get worked up over an domestic FIS races, including the host that will now have a minimum calculated penalty of 23. NCAA, domestic FIS, etc. That will all sort out, eventually and certainly one could argue that there is far too much focus among some in the early FIS years. I am guessing that some will be pushing for even more early entries into the now 15 point {possibly, depending on the calculation} NorAms. Those folks may not realize how hard it is to do much early on in a NorAm, particularly for men.

The "Mess" is just how the World Cup Start List,and World Rankings are formulated. Think of people with world rankings of up to 100, maybe 150 or 200. They will be the same at the very top, because the are already earned on the WC. If not adjusted, you're going to have some drastically different profiles this season, based on when those points were "earned." The person who won two Cotental Cups, even in the spring, will be at 6 points. The person who wins two in NZ, Australia, Chile or early in the winter season, would have 15 {unless they previously had a sub 15 profile}.

That's a huge difference. On the finalist of the 2017-2018 season, in Men's GS, the guy with 15 points is ranked 169th. The guys with 6 points are ranked 31st, currently. In Men's SL, 15 points is ranked 175th. Ladies are less spread out. in SL, 15 points is 116th. In GS, 139th. There are 8 en in GS with 6 points, all ranked 31st.

So....yes, this could be a real mess for those hoping to be working themselves up to be in a position to get a decent starting position on the WC, this year. People are spending a lot of energy and money to make gains and this system could absolutely screw them UNLESS they do adjust the points.

I'll be blunt. The devil is ALWAYS in the implementation, and FIS sucks at this. Remember the rush to 35M GS skis, based on fewer injuries. That worked out well........

I'm hearing very conflicting reports on where this stands, as of today. The base list is supposed to be released on June 10th. It well may be delayed.

Can't add anything new here........

 

[Lifer]

From a just received USSS Congress summary of actions this spring:

"Minimum Penalties - During the 2018 FIS Congress in Costa Navarino (GRE), the Council agreed to the proposal to change the minimum penalties for alpine competitions and eliminate the artificial FIS points of the World Cup Start List top 30 athletes (starting 1st July 2018). However, they did not agree to the retroactive application of that change based on the simulation list prepared during the past two seasons.
Based upon that decision, the following procedures will be utilized in FIS alpine competition for season 2018-19: the Base List, seeding of competitions, penalty and race point calculations, and subsequent ranking lists will use the same system as in season 2017-18.
A parallel system will run (like the simulations that have been done) using the new minimum penalties of 0/15/20/23/60. That parallel system will score every race using the new minimums and ranking lists will be run with those results. The data developed under that parallel system will be the basis for the 2019-20 Base List."
F-Values Will change as follows
• DH 1250
• SL 730
• GS 1010
• SG 1190
• AC 1360

 

[Muleski]

Yep. Heard the same late last night....I think.

Lots of complaints about jumping in and using the data simulation results....which evidently included re-doing every race over the past four seasons. The results were “interesting”..on that basis. Obviously points went up, but WR’s stayed the same, moved way down, and went up. All depends on your mix of results.

Jumping in with the old list, basically the final 14th list of last season, and with the new penalties had a lot of negative commentary as well. Similar to what I tried to outline above. So that’s not happening, it appears.

So this season moves ahead with the old system in total, and with the parallel calculations on the new system. Old penalties, as well. 2018-2019 will run like 2017-2018.

Next summer, everybody will have the profiles recalculated based on the parallel system, and the new penalties go into effect 2019-2020.
So, I assume that FIS will make the data available to see how it’s tracking....periodically.

I think I have that right.

A lot of athlete strategizing and scheduling has been going on, and can now be finalized. Predict a busy summer race season.

This solves the issue I had raised, for this upcoming season. If you’re on the rise and a top level up and comer, fingers crossed for a good year, and an improved WR! Work on getting as close to six as you can. And if you have a low point profile, now, ski fast to keep that relative WR, or to keep it as low as you can.

And yes, WC results will count more than ever, this season, as when the new system goes into effect those will have minimal change, if any. The zero point penalty stays in effect.

I am sure that they have provisions to handle those who are injured this season and have frozen points. Maybe they use the simulated lists for them.

I do like the direction of this change, a lot.

Thanks for the post @Lifer.

 

[ScotsSkier]

Hmm, that might lead to some big fields in the southern Hemisphere cups this year then?

 

[Muleski]

Yes....it wil. And big NorAm fields. “Big” could mean better, and stronger, as well. That’s what I hear. Somebody who has, say less than 10 points, all earned in CC races, is going to want to at the worst maintain them. Because others will be gunning to lower theirs as close to SIx as possible....to get the best world ranking possible when the deck does get restacked.

I saw some of the data simulation lists last night. The movement is significant. I was looking at some younger kids with points in the twenties and thirties. On the simulation, some had world rankings go down, some way up, some about the same. Depends on where those results came from.

For example NorAms go from 6 to 15. But Nationals go from a minimum of 9 all the way to twenty. If you had great results at Nationals, it might not work well on the new model. Same with all of the better donestic FIS races, and NCAA races. Basically the better the race, the lower the minimum the penalty. The better the points. Take one of the top domestic FIS races. Pretend the field is the exact same as a NorAm. Present the penalties calf the same. Now, moving forward, pretty big difference. 15 to 23. So, NorAms will be important.

A small bi-product is that college racers will want to ski in more NorAms, in terms of numbers. Not all of the Eastern NCAA schools love having kids out of class and traveling for non collegiate events. I anticiipate some arm bending of academic deans, etc by AD’s. For the top athletes.

I think keeping the list, and the penalties the same was important. If the new penalties were in effect, then use the simulated lists. This gives people a year to really understand it, get ready, etc.

 

[Moses]

First results from the Southern Hemisphere races coming in with the 2020 points alongside the current/old points