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Feeling the "Push"
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- being pushed toward the center of the circle centrifugal force centripetal force controlled centripetal state do you turn the skis or do the skis turn you? fore/aft balance and physics high edge angles inward force physics of carving ski carving ski-snow interaction straight line and circular travel
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Peace back at'cha.
I've skied quite a bit on fairly hard snow, and probably hundreds of days on soft snow too. Experience can affect one's view point on carving. Many are familiar with the critical angle required for carving, tip your skis enough that they carve given the direction of the resultant force pushes your skis into the groove and doesn't push the skis up out of the groove. I've noticed that passing through that critical angle on hard snow is very much like an on-off switch. On soft snow, however it is much more vague.
Just say'n.
Also, due to old knee injuries, manually pivoting my skis is a bit painful, so I get by mostly by letting the snow pivot my skis for me. Even though I'm not manually pivoting the skis much, I'm still able to affect a big difference between my short radius non-carved (using LF's definition) turns and my carved turns (mostly through fore-aft weight shift, tipping and pressure control). Again, just say'n.
Just say'n.
Also, due to old knee injuries, manually pivoting my skis is a bit painful, so I get by mostly by letting the snow pivot my skis for me. Even though I'm not manually pivoting the skis much, I'm still able to affect a big difference between my short radius non-carved (using LF's definition) turns and my carved turns (mostly through fore-aft weight shift, tipping and pressure control). Again, just say'n.
Re the carve
So, what if, as pressure moves from fore to aft, and the part of the edge that leads the cut of the snow moves from fore to aft, one rotates, creating a smooth continuous inward re-direction of the track, done without skidding? I.e., the tail follows a track, just not the one initiated by the tip. I am hypothesizing this happens because I feel I carve turns that are far lower radius than sidecut without a lot of tipping.
So, what if, as pressure moves from fore to aft, and the part of the edge that leads the cut of the snow moves from fore to aft, one rotates, creating a smooth continuous inward re-direction of the track, done without skidding? I.e., the tail follows a track, just not the one initiated by the tip. I am hypothesizing this happens because I feel I carve turns that are far lower radius than sidecut without a lot of tipping.
Just guessing here, but it is possible that your tips, bent to a greater steering angle but at the same tipping angle as the rest of the ski are not carving, but the ski is carving from the mid-section on back.
Good point well stated. I wonder how many hard snow skiers forget about this, as I do.
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TS
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Francois, I think what is highlighted in bold above is a good description of a ski's carving state from the observer Frame of Reference. My question is, If achieving that critical angle is the goal, Is activity used in pursuit of that goal, be it supporting initial rotary or insufficient but increasing edge angles also considered part of the carving process from the skier's frame of reference?
Maybe it's the pursuit and "capture" of the "Critical Edge Angle" that is an acceptable definition of what we refer to as carving.
I'll sign onto that^. Plus eliminating manual rotation of the skis at the start of the turn, tipping them instead.
I agree.
I gather that in the days of straighter skis, folk were taught to pivot their skis to an initial steering angle. I skipped those lessons, preferring to imitate the DH skiers who were excelling in competition. I found I could make cleaner turns (cleaner turns were faster, and faster is what I wanted) without an initial steering angle, by pressuring the tips into a bend and tipping the skis without the initial pivot. It required more skill to initiate from the tip and make the rest of the ski follow, but it was still doable, and I got pretty good at it. Of course, back then, I only wanted to turn enough to follow the fall line, so I was in the minority (except for the other crazy Crazy Canuck fans).
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TS
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Ahhhhh! Now I see where you are coming from.
I agree. Rotary has no place in carving IMO. The ability to carve is first and foremost about obtaining and edge (tipping). That being said, rotary is part of most ski turns whether by "intelligent choice" (steep/tight radius required) , preference, laziness or just poor and improper technique.
This is why when you ask seemingly advanced skiers to do railroad tracks, most all introduce rotary into the maneuver.
It's amazing how many generally competent skiers, including many less experienced instructors, can't do proper railroad tracks on a very gentle slope, leaving clean lines. (People sometimes use different definitions for "rotary," but here we're referring to a foot or whole leg rotation that redirects the skis' angle, thus destroying the clean carve.) This bespeaks a fundamental gap in the skier's training and progression, missing what should have been established early on as a building block of all movement patterns. Skiers need to understand, appreciate, and feel the differences between foot rotation and other movements of the lower extremities. Many, many good things will flow from that.
Yep. Because manually rotating the skis to point downhill at the start of a turn is so ubiquitous in the world of skiing, that rotation is a deeply engrained habit that's not even noticed by the time a skier decides to learn to carve. If someone wants to learn to carve and they've been skiing for 5-20 years with manual rotation, it's going to take some hard conscious work to learn to tip the skis without rotating them.
I'm not saying we need to teach arc-to-arc carving to newbies, though. I'm simply pointing out that it takes concentrated effort to learn to tip without the rotation, once the rotation is embedded. Teaching both together, as two alternative ways of starting turns, would be good. Can't be done very well in 1 hour lessons though.
My affirmation of "Critical Edge Angle" assumes that this angle does not involve the angle of the ski to the snow. It's the angle of the ski to the skier. Low edge angles to the snow can carve, thus the existence of Railroad Tracks.
I'm not saying we need to teach arc-to-arc carving to newbies, though. I'm simply pointing out that it takes concentrated effort to learn to tip without the rotation, once the rotation is embedded. Teaching both together, as two alternative ways of starting turns, would be good. Can't be done very well in 1 hour lessons though.
My affirmation of "Critical Edge Angle" assumes that this angle does not involve the angle of the ski to the snow. It's the angle of the ski to the skier. Low edge angles to the snow can carve, thus the existence of Railroad Tracks.
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Does that reduce turn radius, at least that of the forward part of the ski?
You have to be careful with that one. If you have shaped skis and hard snow, the skis side cut will pretty much determine the radius, and attempting to shorten the turn by pressuring the tip into a tighter bend will destroy the carve. Bending the ski to the shape that its tipping angle and sidecut want it to make is what you have to do. The main job of tip pressure with shapely skis (even gs skis) is to apply enough downforce to keep the tip pressed into the snow and cutting, as opposed to smearing.
Here's how I looked at it back in the day (s of 70 m radius speed skis). If you pressure the tip while the rest of the ski is almost the air, (like jamming a yardstick into the ground) you can get a bend at the tip. If you then proceed to tip the ski greatly on edge, you can begin to cut a curved groove with the tip. Careful weight distribution while forcing the rest of the ski through that same groove (careful to maintain enough pressure on the tip while moving some progressively rearward) allows you to cleanly carve long radius turns with straight skis with no smearing at initiation. The turn radius on hard snow is still going to be approximately the skis sidecut radius times the cosine of the tipping angle. Getting this right is kind of like landing a jump on a high wire while riding a motorcycle.
Sure, I guess you could do this with a modern shaped ski, but there is no need, as the turn you end up with on hard snow is still going to be approximately the skis side cut radius times the cosine of the tipping angle. It's just a way to get the turn started with straighter skis and no initial steering angle.
Adding a bit of this technique into the mix encourages the ski to adopt the profile of the curve your trying to cut via tipping angle. As always, use just enough tip pressure to get the job done, if you want to ski faster.
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TS
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Again, what is being ignored is the concept of "Frame of Reference" That's what helps qualify and it does matter. "Loading" can mean many things depending on FOR.
To fall on my sword, I should have titled this thread "Feeling the Push....From the ski"
I must be smearing or skidding. I just feel I’m carving. I “feel” that the part of the edge cutting and extending a groove is tracking not what the tip started, but what the part of the ski in front of it cut. I think I’m saying, in another way, what I referred to as the effective edge. A bit after turn initiation, the pressure is further back. Where that pressure is determines what part of the edge has greatest and most significant effect. What the tip is doing, to me, seems irrelevant. But, that’s just a visualization in my head, one that is not grounded by subjective observation.
Or it could be that your skis have tip rocker and the tip doesn't get involved until you reach a bigger edge angle.
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When I carve I either let my femur rotate, or resist the rotation by twisting my feet the other way IE tip left turn my feet right. When I start twisting my feet against the turn its like I have aplified the "push" coming from my skis with out pushing on it.
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