Fear: A Different Approach

[LiquidFeet]

whoops, double post.

 

[SugarCube]

What does it mean to TF?

Terrain F*** - take someone on to terrain that's way over their ability to prove a point and scare them to death

 

[Kiki]

Terrain F*** - take someone on to terrain that's way over their ability to prove a point and scare them to death

OMG! That's horrible! I have been very lucky with my instructors. They have been generally very well intentioned. I don't know what I would do if a malicious instructor took me to a terrifying spot. Yikes, another thing to worry about.

 

[SugarCube]

OMG! That's horrible! I have been very lucky with my instructors. They have been generally very well intentioned. I don't know what I would do if a malicious instructor took me to a terrifying spot. Yikes, another thing to worry about.

This jerk was the exception, not the rule, and he wasn't asked back the following season. Not meant to add to your "worry-about" list (my own list is quite l-o-n-g!). Just a bit disheartening and when there are so many really good, decent ones. Glad you've found those!

 

[cantunamunch]

Would it be useful at this point to attempt to generalise some of the above observations, and maybe suggest that fear is not a cause but an effect?

And, further, that fear is an indicator of a lack of trust in one or more points of the chain (body, brain, gear, instructor)?

 

[LiquidFeet]

Fear is often justified by previous experiences, with anticipated repetition.

 

[Bolder]

Would it be useful at this point to attempt to generalise some of the above observations, and maybe suggest that fear is not a cause but an effect?

And, further, that fear is an indicator of a lack of trust in one or more points of the chain (body, brain, gear, instructor)?

I mostly (maybe 85 percent) agree with this.

However, I don't doubt that some people are more fearful when it comes to actually taking action, or have a real fear of heights or are prone to vertigo. Those may be problems that trust in the chain above won't solve. I wonder if expensive private lessons should include an optional session or two with a sports psychologist? It might be costsly to the resorts but if they gain a lifelong skier then it's worth it.

 

[cantunamunch]

Fear is often justified by previous experiences, with anticipated repetition.

Accepted, in fact it's built into my canonical form as phrased above.

The advantage of the canonical form is that it amplifies the focus on building trust in specific, addressable zones.

Instead of directly fighting indirectly caused , or even multiply caused, fear.

I I wonder if expensive private lessons should include an optional session or two with a sports psychologist? It might be costsly to the resorts but if they gain a lifelong skier then it's worth it.

Interesting thought, hadn't considered that.

 

[markojp]

My take, sliding downhill on snow, while fun, is certainly NOT something many adult learners will ever feel fully comfortable with. Height, speed, the 'unknown', etc... a lot of boxes are checked even before many arrive at the hill. Good instructors are masters of comfort and distraction. They know where to go when it's time. Some clients needs a small push. Others none. Trust is built during the lesson, but even the best instructors will have moments of 'failure' when dealing with fear. If someone tells you they've never over-terrained someone, they're flat out lying. If they didn't learn from the experience and make better choices going forward, then they're either poorly trained, or just poor instructors.

 

[CalG]

A new perspective on "fear" perhaps. At least new to me, and I would like to understand more on the aspect, so bare with me.

As we "compose" our relationship with our environment we asses our relative safety and exposure.
In example, if one would walk to the edge of a skyscraper balcony, one might be frozen in fear well in advance of ever peering over the edge. Even if the "edge" revealed a few short steps down to a rooftop garden. Our preconceived reality takes place in advance of cognition. It is formed based on past experience, anticipation, expectations and fantasy.

That may be a rather large hurdle for a "ski coach" to accommodate.

 

[James]

In example, if one would walk to the edge of a skyscraper balcony, one might be frozen in fear well in advance of ever peering over the edge. Even if the "edge" revealed a few short steps down to a rooftop garden.

Amazing the difference in people dealing with something like this glass box. I crawled out there. As if it made a difference. Some just waltz on out.
It's about 1,000 ft down. At Aiguille di Midi in Chamonix there's one that's 1,000 m down.

If heights freak you out, don't watch.

 

[AmyPJ]

Sideslipping was my friend yesterday at Alta (my first time to REALLY ski there) and I skied all over the place. Got into Devil's Castle area, and the traverse alone was daunting and scary to me, as the snow was not fresh. By the time it actually came to SKI down the hill, I was a locked up, stiff mess. But, I survived that chunky snow with some sideslips, pseudo pivot slips, and cussing. It didn't help that I needed to eat.

My fear is MUCH less this season than last, and I think it was boot fit/stance issues as much as anything. My junior race boots put me into an aggressive, forward stance and I just wasn't balanced, especially on steeper terrain. With new boots, I've skied several steep runs this season with relative ease compared to last season, when I had full-blown panic attacks on them. It's been very rewarding, and a lot of fun! And required a lot of patience, persistence, and work.

I've determined that there are just certain snow conditions I don't care to ski, period. And that's OK! I will say, I venture into crud a LOT more this year, and I've gotten quite aggressive in powder, too. Both are big improvements. This is a life-long sport to learn, and pushing so hard that it's not fun, well, is NOT fun! Some of us are more naturally aggressive, athletic, and fearless, and some of us aren't. I continue to work on technique and mindfulness.

 

[Pete in Idaho]

A new perspective on "fear" perhaps. At least new to me, and I would like to understand more on the aspect, so bare with me.

As we "compose" our relationship with our environment we asses our relative safety and exposure.
In example, if one would walk to the edge of a skyscraper balcony, one might be frozen in fear well in advance of ever peering over the edge. Even if the "edge" revealed a few short steps down to a rooftop garden. Our preconceived reality takes place in advance of cognition. It is formed based on past experience, anticipation, expectations and fantasy.

That may be a rather large hurdle for a "ski coach" to accommodate.

Sometimes YES but not always. Some new, lst time skiers are fearful but don't really know why because they have never experienced being on the snow. Here is a case or cases that the thread addresses and you and the student can benefit from starting the lesson off with establishing trust, something that is not that hard to accomplish.

Sideslipping was my friend yesterday at Alta (my first time to REALLY ski there) and I skied all over the place. Got into Devil's Castle area, and the traverse alone was daunting and scary to me, as the snow was not fresh. By the time it actually came to SKI down the hill, I was a locked up, stiff mess. But, I survived that chunky snow with some sideslips, pseudo pivot slips, and cussing. It didn't help that I needed to eat.

My fear is MUCH less this season than last, and I think it was boot fit/stance issues as much as anything. My junior race boots put me into an aggressive, forward stance and I just wasn't balanced, especially on steeper terrain. With new boots, I've skied several steep runs this season with relative ease compared to last season, when I had full-blown panic attacks on them. It's been very rewarding, and a lot of fun! And required a lot of patience, persistence, and work.

I've determined that there are just certain snow conditions I don't care to ski, period. And that's OK! I will say, I venture into crud a LOT more this year, and I've gotten quite aggressive in powder, too. Both are big improvements. This is a life-long sport to learn, and pushing so hard that it's not fun, well, is NOT fun! Some of us are more naturally aggressive, athletic, and fearless, and some of us aren't. I continue to work on technique and mindfulness.

Sounds like you are making significant progress at your own pace which is just fine.

 

[CalG]

Yes, One could establish trust , and then promptly suffer a slow twisting fall that resulted in spiral fracture of the tibia. ;-)

It's a two way street, and there are no sure bets.

The post was directed towards the mechanics of the mind. I never underestimate the power of positive thought, but I also recognize that the "fight or flight" response goes back to when we skiers were surfing tree tops.

 

[oldschoolskier]

I have helped several people overcome fear skiing and in other things as well. The primary thing I found that helps is change the focus of the what/where is happening. Here’s what I use.

• Make physical contact (make sure you control it)
• Eye contact (maintain it)
• Calm voice (sometimes a shout is required to establish initial contact/new focus), talk them through.
• No matter what happens once you’ve established yourself as the new focus never let your own fear show if something goes wrong (as it is easy to get pulled into their fears).
• Have confidence that all is good and you’ve got this (even if you don’t) as no matter what happens it is now not fear driven, but you driven.

Remember you become the new non-fear focus point and you now control the outcome.

Important Warning: Don’t do this if you have any doubts (or fears) of success, you can be the one sucked into driving your fear with theirs!

Remember no matter the outcome it is successful as the fear got bypassed as that is the end goal.

 

[tromano]

Not sure fear is a problem. If I am scared usually I will focus more and be more aggressive to deal with the challenge, plan my line, and usually think fear makes me actually ski it better. If I dont feel up to doing that then its best to go find another line. Nothing wrong with not skiing a run if your not comfortable enough to ski it the way it needs it be done.

 

[Pete in Idaho]

Yes, One could establish trust , and then promptly suffer a slow twisting fall that resulted in spiral fracture of the tibia. ;-)

It's a two way street, and there are no sure bets.

The post was directed towards the mechanics of the mind. I never underestimate the power of positive thought, but I also recognize that the "fight or flight" response goes back to when we skiers were surfing tree tops.

Human behavior contains and acts upon an infinite number of variables. Trust and it's positive attributes to a new skier's relationship with an instructor was all that was presented.

Not sure fear is a problem. If I am scared usually I will focus more and be more aggressive to deal with the challenge, plan my line, and usually think fear makes me actually ski it better. If I dont feel up to doing that then its best to go find another line. Nothing wrong with not skiing a run if your not comfortable enough to ski it the way it needs it be done.

You are beyond the premise of the original thread and using your own approach sucessfully to make yourself a better skier.

 

[Chris Poepping]

it's easier to move down the hill before you complete the turn.

⛷

 

[Sibhusky]

I'm sure that's nice and succinct for memory purposes, but you're going to have to elaborate how you work that into a way to help with fear. Because those who are frozen in place are looking for a helicopter or tele transport to save them. They don't want to get down the hill, they want to get off the hill. I'm sure once you fully explain the fortune cookie, we'll get it.

it's easier to move down the hill before you complete the turn.

⛷

 

[KingGrump]

I'm sure once you fully explain the fortune cookie, we'll get it.