Favorite Bumps/Mogul Videos for tips

[geepers]

Maybe, I think the best thing foster did was to pay homage to Brassard at the beginning. Douglas isn't too shabby. BTW, look at the forward lean Brassard has on those boots. Must be for a reason.

Another perspective from Josh Foster.

 

[jack97]

Another perspective from Josh Foster.

Yes it is.

 

[jack97]

Wasn't so much entertained as in need of a snack whilst I watched you 3 fairways over from the one we were playing. Really? Bump style preference somehow got extrapolated into commentary on your lifestyle choices?

If someone says they don't do bumps because <insert explanation here> if it's a fit 25 y/o whose just been shredding the park then it's probably an excuse. If it's someone with a hip replacement then it's probably fair enough. There's no one size fits all.

I talk to local freestyle coaches and other bump skiers, sometimes we talk technique and we kind of know what it takes to ski a direct line, man made or natural. Sometimes when we ride up, we see skiers who don't have it yet to ski direct, meaning using turn shape, no a&e and taking the slower line. I don't try to judge them, they are either skiing direct or not. I think the point being made, when someone can't ski a direct line but think its expert bump skiing, its not by people who can ski a direct line.

 

[skier]

If the CoM overtakes the BoS when a bump rears up at the skier it may not end well.

Geepers, you keep posting this over and over, and I keep ignoring it, because it's not in opposition to anything I've said. I assumed that it was obvious why, but maybe not, so here's the response.

It's not necessary to kick your feet forward as you describe in order to keep your COM over your BAS. If it was, then everybody would teach that move. Mogul comp folks don't teach that move, because for their goals of linking rapid turns, it's more important not to get pushed back. In fact, many teach the opposite of kicking the feet forward which is constantly pulling the feet back to maintain shin pressure. You can't maintain shin pressure, stay tall to absorb the up coming bump, and kick your feet forward. Comp folks can't do these techniques that end up pushing you in the back seat like many of these other videos we see from non-comp folks. It's ok for these other skiers to get in the back seat, because if they can't make that next turn then they just take the slow exit to the next line over, i.e. line choice. In comp mogul skiing, if you take that slow exit over to the next line, you've just lost the competition.

Also, another inconsistency is that you describe the kick forward as something in preparation for a bump that pushes back on your skis. If this was actually necessary, then it would take prognostication to have it work right, because every bump has a different shape. When there's no bump, obviously your feet aren't pushed back. Therefore, as you go from small bumps to big bumps the amount of push back would be different. Also, the amount of push back would be different not just based on size but also based on shape. If you needed a slight kick forward to make a difference for a small bump, then you would need a big kick forward to make a difference for a big bump. It would be impossible with just your peripheral vision going 15 mph to predict exactly how much kick forward you will need or to catalog and remember 3-5 bumps ahead so that you apply just the right amount of kick forward for each bump. Therefore, it can not be in preparation for the upcoming bump. Things like this can only be based on feel, and by the time you feel it, you're already absorbing the bump which is the time when the feet are being pushed back according to the Section 8 description, i.e. too late. I'm sorry, but this kick forward technique isn't necessary. You're welcome to do it, but you'll keep getting knocked out of the line by turn 3-4. I realize that you don't care, but when someone comes along that does care, be sure not to give them the advice of kicking your feet forward.

 

[James]

.... here we go again. In his absorption vid he gets air so he has to lead with his feet to get more range to absorbed . In his other vid, on speed control, he doesn't get get air, so he has no need to lead. Martin is about shin pressure and getting forward when the skis are in contact with the snow.

Lol. Who said anything about lead? So, shin pressure doesn't go along with absorption/extension?
Why don't you just sum up Chuck's thoughts on technique? It really would make it easier. What's the video you would make?

I don't think Patrick Deneen advocates cuff neutral.......

Who said he did? Your trying to prove an agenda that doesn't exist.
It's a simple animation. The comment was just correcting skier's comments on what he thought from memory it showed, shins in back of boot at one point.
Besides, if shins are always pressed in the front the animation would be the same. It's variation that would show up - from front to back.
edit: I just saw this:

Much like the Barne's cuff neutral concept and associate this to Deneen's zipper line sequence...,,,, one concept implies this result, kind of idiotic IMO.

Wtf are you talking about? First off, Bob will have to talk for himself about his "concept" which in this instance you're making up out of nothing. It's your concept.
2nd, There is zero difference in a stick animation if one's shins are pressed forward at all times or if they're cuff neutral. The boot is not shown, only the lower leg angle is shown as basically constant. Therefore I could say the animation shows shins pressed into he cuff at all times and it would still be accurate.

3rd, The zipperline video wasn't showing anything other than nice zipperline skiing. Nice try for using it for your agenda.
Try pm'ng Bob if you want to know his concepts or his experience working with Deneen but don't make them up and don't claim he's saying something that you made up. F** lame dude.

Geepers, you keep posting this over and over, and I keep ignoring it, because it's not in opposition to anything I've said. I assumed that it was obvious why, but maybe not, so here's the response.

It's not necessary to kick your feet forward as you describe in order to keep your COM over your BAS. If it was, then everybody would teach that move. Mogul comp folks don't teach that move, because for their goals of linking rapid turns, it's more important not to get pushed back. In fact, many teach the opposite of kicking the feet forward which is constantly pulling the feet back to maintain shin pressure. You can't maintain shin pressure, stay tall to absorb the up coming bump, and kick your feet forward. Comp folks can't do these techniques that end up pushing you in the back seat like many of these other videos we see from non-comp folks. It's ok for these other skiers to get in the back seat, because if they can't make that next turn then they just take the slow exit to the next line over, i.e. line choice. In comp mogul skiing, if you take that slow exit over to the next line, you've just lost the competition.

Also, another inconsistency is that you describe the kick forward as something in preparation for a bump that pushes back on your skis. If this was actually necessary, then it would take prognostication to have it work right, because every bump has a different shape. When there's no bump, obviously your feet aren't pushed back. Therefore, as you go from small bumps to big bumps the amount of push back would be different. Also, the amount of push back would be different not just based on size but also based on shape. If you needed a slight kick forward to make a difference for a small bump, then you would need a big kick forward to make a difference for a big bump. It would be impossible with just your peripheral vision going 15 mph to predict exactly how much kick forward you will need or to catalog and remember 3-5 bumps ahead so that you apply just the right amount of kick forward for each bump. Therefore, it can not be in preparation for the upcoming bump. Things like this can only be based on feel, and by the time you feel it, you're already absorbing the bump which is the time when the feet are being pushed back according to the Section 8 description, i.e. too late. I'm sorry, but this kick forward technique isn't necessary. You're welcome to do it, but you'll keep getting knocked out of the line by turn 3-4. I realize that you don't care, but when someone comes along that does care, be sure not to give them the advice of kicking your feet forward.

Nice post. What's the advice from coaches on the move after absorption?

 

[skier]

The comment was just correcting skier's comments on what he thought from memory it showed, shins in back of boot at one point.

Nice post. What's the advice from coaches on the move after absorption?

I remember cuff neutral comments from Barnes somewhere which I have never agreed with and goes against what I've heard from mogul coaches. I don't remember saying much about Barnes' animation other than it depicts a bicycle move that will happen whether you are cuff neutral, on the shins, or pushing your feet forward. Merely, the bicycle move is not evidence that mogul skiers apply pressure to move their feet forward. The feet come forward even if you are applying pressure to push them back. It may even be that you could push back with all your might and still not keep the feet from coming forward, because it would require lifting and holding the tails in the air to accomplish it.

This is the advice after absorption. Listen at 6:31:


combined with this.


In summary, one fluid motion: absorb, roll the knees, pivot, pull the feet back, to load the downhill ski shovel, to slice across the backside of the bump.

 

[jack97]

Wtf are you talking about? First off, Bob will have to talk for himself about his "concept" which in this instance you're making up out of nothing. It's your concept.
2nd, There is zero difference in a stick animation if one's shins are pressed forward at all times or if they're cuff neutral. The boot is not shown, only the lower leg angle is shown as basically constant. Therefore I could say the animation shows shins pressed into he cuff at all times and it would still be accurate.

3rd, The zipperline video wasn't showing anything other than nice zipperline skiing. Nice try for using it for your agenda.
Try pm'ng Bob if you want to know his concepts or his experience working with Deneen but don't make them up and don't claim he's saying something that you made up. F** lame dude.

We had an epic thread war on the subject of cuff neutral, Barnes, his crew of PSIA supporter, a mogul coach and I. Go to mark 3:00 on the absorption vid and the caption read " and neutral in the cuff', then transition to Deneen at 3:20 doing a "zipper line". Although, I can not prove it (unless someone save the thread), Barnes did concede that there is merit in applying shin pressure after the skier crest the bump and start the extension phase.

BTW, I never had an issue with Barnes zipperline vid. Its the concepts in the absorption vid where Deneen's zipper line transitions in and out would be implied these concepts are needed to ski like Deneen. The vid you reference is lame.

 

[Mike King]

So, all this talk about shin pressure, you do realize that when you apply shin pressure you give up range of motion to evert and invert the ankle, right? As well as to rotate the feet?

I also wonder if the desired effect of that shin pressure is to move the CoM forward on the ski. I do notice a fair bit of tail displacement in the videos you've posted.

Mike

 

[geepers]

Geepers, you keep posting this over and over, and I keep ignoring it, because it's not in opposition to anything I've said. I assumed that it was obvious why, but maybe not, so here's the response.

It's not necessary to kick your feet forward as you describe in order to keep your COM over your BAS. If it was, then everybody would teach that move. Mogul comp folks don't teach that move, because for their goals of linking rapid turns, it's more important not to get pushed back. In fact, many teach the opposite of kicking the feet forward which is constantly pulling the feet back to maintain shin pressure. You can't maintain shin pressure, stay tall to absorb the up coming bump, and kick your feet forward. Comp folks can't do these techniques that end up pushing you in the back seat like many of these other videos we see from non-comp folks. It's ok for these other skiers to get in the back seat, because if they can't make that next turn then they just take the slow exit to the next line over, i.e. line choice. In comp mogul skiing, if you take that slow exit over to the next line, you've just lost the competition.

Also, another inconsistency is that you describe the kick forward as something in preparation for a bump that pushes back on your skis. If this was actually necessary, then it would take prognostication to have it work right, because every bump has a different shape. When there's no bump, obviously your feet aren't pushed back. Therefore, as you go from small bumps to big bumps the amount of push back would be different. Also, the amount of push back would be different not just based on size but also based on shape. If you needed a slight kick forward to make a difference for a small bump, then you would need a big kick forward to make a difference for a big bump. It would be impossible with just your peripheral vision going 15 mph to predict exactly how much kick forward you will need or to catalog and remember 3-5 bumps ahead so that you apply just the right amount of kick forward for each bump. Therefore, it can not be in preparation for the upcoming bump. Things like this can only be based on feel, and by the time you feel it, you're already absorbing the bump which is the time when the feet are being pushed back according to the Section 8 description, i.e. too late. I'm sorry, but this kick forward technique isn't necessary. You're welcome to do it, but you'll keep getting knocked out of the line by turn 3-4. I realize that you don't care, but when someone comes along that does care, be sure not to give them the advice of kicking your feet forward.

I feel the same re your continual showing of that Section 8 shot and stating "if....backseat..." Which also seems obvious.

It would perhaps be better if we could at least agree that we need to be balanced in the bumps. By all means use shin contact as a reference point - I've played the $100 bill game plenty of times - just as long as its not shins rammed hard into the boot.

On the rest, yes, it is a judgement learnt by practice, the same way we learn how much to absorb and extend. Which have exactly the same issues you describe.

A comp course is predictable. Regular bumps, regular spacing.

The real world is much less predictable. On the terrain I regularly ski we're be hard pressed to retain balance without that extra move in some situations. It's just another option to use in the right situation.

BTW I can't recall seeing folk ski that zipper line where I ski. The one exception is one resort where the mogul comp people have a training course on the side of one of the chairs. (Chatted with Brittney Cox on that chair before she became a WC regular.) Course is not open to the public. There are no bumps on the path to that course so I've not seen how the competitors ski the open bump runs. Out on the public runs it's not the way I see people skiing. (I'll be specially looking for it from now on just in case I've been unobservant.) Now I don't know if that's due to the nature of the terrain or skier preference. Perhaps those resorts lack legions of Hammers flattening all the bumps. To me they seem full of huge trenches and unassailable ridges - really would love to see some-one zipper through that stuff.

 

[geepers]

So, all this talk about shin pressure, you do realize that when you apply shin pressure you give up range of motion to evert and invert the ankle, right? As well as to rotate the feet?

I also wonder if the desired effect of that shin pressure is to move the CoM forward on the ski. I do notice a fair bit of tail displacement in the videos you've posted.

Mike

Was wondering what the cross-over would be with other types of skiing. Feel there's enough to get through without having to learn a style that is useful in only one type of skiing.

 

[geepers]

Geepers, you keep posting this over and over, and I keep ignoring it, because it's not in opposition to anything I've said. I assumed that it was obvious why, but maybe not, so here's the response.

An extra to my previous reply.... I think you are hung up on the amount of the feet actually move forward. I've previously posted this from JB - I'll draw attention to the very specific part - what he says at 3:54 to 4:27.

Any actual movement is very small.

 

[jack97]

I also wonder if the desired effect of that shin pressure is to move the CoM forward on the ski.

Yes, that is the desired outcome.

 

[jack97]

I feel the same re your continual showing of that Section 8 shot and stating "if....backseat..." Which also seems obvious.

It would perhaps be better if we could at least agree that we need to be balanced in the bumps. By all means use shin contact as a reference point - I've played the $100 bill game plenty of times - just as long as its not shins rammed hard into the boot.

On the rest, yes, it is a judgement learnt by practice, the same way we learn how much to absorb and extend. Which have exactly the same issues you describe.

A comp course is predictable. Regular bumps, regular spacing.

The real world is much less predictable. On the terrain I regularly ski we're be hard pressed to retain balance without that extra move in some situations. It's just another option to use in the right situation.

BTW I can't recall seeing folk ski that zipper line where I ski. The one exception is one resort where the mogul comp people have a training course on the side of one of the chairs. (Chatted with Brittney Cox on that chair before she became a WC regular.) Course is not open to the public. There are no bumps on the path to that course so I've not seen how the competitors ski the open bump runs. Out on the public runs it's not the way I see people skiing. (I'll be specially looking for it from now on just in case I've been unobservant.) Now I don't know if that's due to the nature of the terrain or skier preference. Perhaps those resorts lack legions of Hammers flattening all the bumps. To me they seem full of huge trenches and unassailable ridges - really would love to see some-one zipper through that stuff.

Another misconception about man made courses, even in these courses, the formation has some quirks. They get skied in different so the shape differs and the troughs differs and you have to really feel the snow to make adjustments, The still shots of crashes you post are most likely the miscues of these adjustments.

As for the natural bumps, where its much less predictable, look at Brassard's Bump2Bump and Smart Mogul Skiing, post 15. Every time they approach the face of the bump is another opportunity to control speed and is done by applying appropriate shin pressure Only time they go backseat is when they have some air and they reach with their feet to land at a certain part of the bump. And yes, it's done purposely if the bumps are spaced far apart or they want to switch to another line. At most or if at all, the cuff would be neutral at the apex of the trough, a short time span if the skier is going direct and carrying speed,

 

[jack97]

At most or if at all, the cuff would be neutral at the apex of the trough, a short time span if the skier is going direct and carrying speed,

IMO, the above is really the disconnect we had at Epic when it came down to cuff neutral, PSIA believes that the majority speed control can and should be done by turn shapes and line selection. If so, a lot more time and space will be on the "flatter" parts of the bumps. I could see how being cuff neutral is needed to stay in balance while they navigate to find the slower line. And I believe this is what Balluo is alluding to in maintaining balance.

For skiing direct line in the moguls, it's a different mindset........

 

[skier]

IMO, the above is really the disconnect we had at Epic when it came down to cuff neutral, PSIA believes that the majority speed control can and should be done by turn shapes and line selection. If so, a lot more time and space will be on the "flatter" parts of the bumps. I could see how being cuff neutral is needed to stay in balance while they navigate to find the slower line. And I believe this is what Balluo is alluding to in maintaining balance.

For skiing direct line in the moguls, it's a different mindset........

Also, looking at many videos on line, it seems chopped up powder is what lots of people call bump skiing. Carving in chopped up powder is fine or even better with neutral cuffs, IMO. The deeper it is, the more important to be neutral. Skiing a direct line with neutral cuffs in icy or hard packed moguls is a bad idea.

 

[jack97]

Skiing a direct line with neutral cuffs in icy or hard packed moguls is a bad idea.

Sometimes there is something to be said for getting some speed on terrain that requires a significant amount of balance. When I see a skier meandering to ski the slow line on ice or hard pack, I see more balance problems. As with ice on the flats, its best to ski through it than prolong it. Maybe this vid is an appropriate analogy.

 

[skier]

Was wondering what the cross-over would be with other types of skiing. Feel there's enough to get through without having to learn a style that is useful in only one type of skiing.

I think being able to ski like this below would be useful for just about anybody that enjoys skiing. It's really not that different. Just add in worse balance, more impact, and an unnatural love for dolphins, and you'll have the cross over to other styles.

 

[geepers]

Another misconception about man made courses, even in these courses, the formation has some quirks. They get skied in different so the shape differs and the troughs differs and you have to really feel the snow to make adjustments, The still shots of crashes you post are most likely the miscues of these adjustments.

As for the natural bumps, where its much less predictable, look at Brassard's Bump2Bump and Smart Mogul Skiing, post 15. Every time they approach the face of the bump is another opportunity to control speed and is done by applying appropriate shin pressure Only time they go backseat is when they have some air and they reach with their feet to land at a certain part of the bump. And yes, it's done purposely if the bumps are spaced far apart or they want to switch to another line. At most or if at all, the cuff would be neutral at the apex of the trough, a short time span if the skier is going direct and carrying speed,

Misconception? Well, maybe on your hill nature lays down the bumps exactly down the fall line spaced 3.75 m apart, in nice left, right, left, right sequence. Unfortunately on the hills I ski it's not so co-operative.

Still trying to find a vid f some-one zipper lining Whistler Peak Bowl.

I'm looking at this vid of Jean Luc Brassard and in the slow speed (4:00) it looks like his speed control is predominantly through line / rounder turn shape. Middle speed (6:30) has much the same. The high speed (9:20) I'm not touching as my Oakleys aren't approved for that.

I'm not going to buy in to the long running shin pressure / neutral cuff discussion except to observe that in both Brazzard vid above and the modern Martin vid, in those quick little turns they make to both sides above the mogul, they slide both tails and tips (bow tie effect) indicating they are very well balanced on the center of their skis. I do know ski instructors who ski all the time with shin contact but I'm not sure they'd call it shin pressure as that's likely to indicate being too far forward in most situations.

I think being able to ski like this below would be useful for just about anybody that enjoys skiing. It's really not that different. Just add in worse balance, more impact, and an unnatural love for dolphins, and you'll have the cross over to other styles.

If skiing bumps as Nelson does in this vid then no kick forward is required. That's because he's mostly sliding sideways into the bumps, feet first. Easiest to see example is at 0:08 (photo below) but it can be seen many times through that video.

This is the lateral equivalent of pushing feet forward. Can see that same lateral move in the modern Chuck Martin vid where he skis the steeps.

Not that I'm passing judgement on skiing that way in the bumps - it's an effective move. But if that's the way you ski outside the bumps - lots of skidding sideways - then I guess we are aiming at 2 different targets.

 

[skier]

Misconception? Well, maybe on your hill nature lays down the bumps exactly down the fall line spaced 3.75 m apart, in nice left, right, left, right sequence. Unfortunately on the hills I ski it's not so co-operative.

Still trying to find a vid f some-one zipper lining Whistler Peak Bowl.

I'm looking at this vid of Jean Luc Brassard and in the slow speed (4:00) it looks like his speed control is predominantly through line / rounder turn shape. Middle speed (6:30) has much the same. The high speed (9:20) I'm not touching as my Oakleys aren't approved for that.

I'm not going to buy in to the long running shin pressure / neutral cuff discussion except to observe that in both Brazzard vid above and the modern Martin vid, in those quick little turns they make to both sides above the mogul, they slide both tails and tips (bow tie effect) indicating they are very well balanced on the center of their skis. I do know ski instructors who ski all the time with shin contact but I'm not sure they'd call it shin pressure as that's likely to indicate being too far forward in most situations.



If skiing bumps as Nelson does in this vid then no kick forward is required. That's because he's mostly sliding sideways into the bumps, feet first. Easiest to see example is at 0:08 (photo below) but it can be seen many times through that video.


This is the lateral equivalent of pushing feet forward. Can see that same lateral move in the modern Chuck Martin vid where he skis the steeps.

Not that I'm passing judgement on skiing that way in the bumps - it's an effective move. But if that's the way you ski outside the bumps - lots of skidding sideways - then I guess we are aiming at 2 different targets.

Most of the videos we've put up are on natural bumps. There's no need to focus on machine made bumps so much. It's just a false tactic to try to endorse one tech over another.

Bump shapes depend allot on local skiers. Mary Jane has great lines, because of so many good skiers. It's possible you don't have many good skiers where you are, and so the lines are so choppy it's hard to find a rhythm, but in soft conditions you can form some nice lines in an afternoon. The first step is for you to learn how to make rhythmic short radius turns. Though, Whistler has some great lines. I love skiing there. So if you're not finding lots of lines at Whistler, it's you, not the slope. Someone like Chuck Martin will rip on any marked trail there.

Carmichael skis more direct than non-comp folks. If he doesn't need the kick forward than no-one does.

 

[jack97]

It's just a false tactic to try to endorse one tech over another.

QFT...... @geepers, it seems that most of your threads have been to endorse the techniques you believe in. That's fine, it doesn't matter to me but the more you try the more it says to me that you can't ski direct lines, albeit, age, physical disability, lack of self belief or motivation.

We have long past the point where we can convince each other, now its a futile effort.