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Ken_R

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What do you see as the benefits of a lighter ski (excluding touring/uphill requirements)?

Like we were talking about the other day on snow, heavier (up to a point) is nicer but when the skis are on ones shoulder light is best :roflmao:

I guess for people that have trouble carrying skis that are on the heavy side the lighter skis make their experience more enjoyable since carrying skis is a part of most peoples ski day. Same with boots.

Light skis of today do indeed ski much better than their weight would suggest but the laws of physics still apply.
 

Ken_R

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My entire point is that stiffer, longer, straighter skis are not more work if you possess the skills to remain in balance on them.

The dampening effect of the heavier skis make rough firm conditions much more enjoyable to me. I feel fresher after a run. Proved it the other day at LL.

Like it was mentioned earlier, at slower speeds and in really tight terrain then lighter skis might be less work, up to a point of course. But on any type of cut run or open bowl il take the heavier skis every time.
 
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Philpug

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I wll add the caviot "for the sake of..." isn't helpful for the product and never turns out to be an actual performance benefit.
 

Eleeski

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Why lighter? It takes less energy to move the skis. If you have the skills to control the skis, you can do more and faster. Those are the laws of physics that apply.

Engineering and materials science control things like damping, rebound, stiffness and flex.

Which would you rather drive, a Cadillac or a Ferrari? The Ferrari is faster, more maneuverable, better accelerating and more nimble. The Cadillac for LA traffic for sure. Damned if I want to simulate LA traffic on the snow ski hill.

Eric
 

Ken_R

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Why lighter? It takes less energy to move the skis. If you have the skills to control the skis, you can do more and faster.
Which would you rather drive, a Cadillac or a Ferrari? The Ferrari is faster, more maneuverable, better accelerating and more nimble. The Cadillac for LA traffic for sure. Damned if I want to simulate LA traffic on the snow ski hill.

IF the snow surface were smooth yea, but most time ski resort conditions are only nice for a few hours before they get REALLY rough.

I wouldnt want to drive a Ferrari down a pothole riddled gravel road...
 

KingGrump

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Why lighter? It takes less energy to move the skis. If you have the skills to control the skis, you can do more and faster.

I am a low energy skier. That is OK though, I have the force - gravity.
To tell the truth, I don't need to do more or move faster.
In fact, I generally like to do less and move slower. Not in competition with anyone. My motto is "Steady as she goes."

My son and I often watch other skiers. One of the most common remark from both of us is "Why are they working so hard? Don't they have gravity over there?"

Use the force Luke.JPG
 

Ecimmortal

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Why lighter? It takes less energy to move the skis. If you have the skills to control the skis, you can do more and faster. Those are the laws of physics that apply.
It sounds like you are more concerned with controlling the ski via other means than it's design characteristics, and that's fine.

Engineering and materials science control things like damping, rebound, stiffness and flex.
No manner of damping, stiffness or flex can make up for weight when it comes to variable conditions

Which would you rather drive, a Cadillac or a Ferrari? The Ferrari is faster, more maneuverable, better accelerating and more nimble. The Cadillac for LA traffic for sure. Damned if I want to simulate LA traffic on the snow ski hill.
This analogy doesn't really work for me at least.

Eric
 

Noodler

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Why lighter? It takes less energy to move the skis. If you have the skills to control the skis, you can do more and faster. Those are the laws of physics that apply.

Eric

I asked you a leading question to see exactly what you thought the benefits are for a lighter ski. My assumption was that it was about the desire to have a lighter ski to "move" when skiing. My suspicion is that this is because your skiing movements include twisting of the skis; a movement where a lighter ski (or reduced weight at the tip and tails) becomes easier. I'll just leave it there...
 

markojp

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It's never an 'either' 'or' proposition. There are some excellent lighter weight skis on the market. There are some not so excellent skis as well. It all just depends on what you want them to do and your propensities for how to get them to do it.
 

Eleeski

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Watch a slalom racer. Their skis are not always on the snow doing "bendy" turns. At the critical high energy parts of the run, their skis are doing most of the turn in the air. The energy for that turn has to come all from the skier. A lighter ski in the air will be able to turn faster, later and more than a heavy ski. Once the skier gets used to that, it could be an advantage.

Bump skis move extremely fast. Up and down, side to side as well as twisting. The skier inputs are a huge part of that motion. Light skis really rock the bumps.

For me, powder and crud are all about balance. If I'm balanced in my core, it feels right. Extra mass way away from my core (heavy skis) is destabilizing. Especially if I have to avoid a tree with a forced quick turn. Personally, light skis matter most in powder and crud for my skiing.

@KingGrump There's always a flat runout back to the lift. Skating with light skis is so much easier.

I'm old enough that riding up the lift with heavy skis hurts my knees. I'm not alone - have you seen some of the weird devices and straps people use on the lifts?

Even if you don't hike much, you still have to carry skis to the lift. Light is magic there.

While the best ice skis I've ridden were super heavy Bode Miller Head SL Racers, the Slant skis were almost as fun on a nasty icy day. Fresh tune (Sierra Snow Labs both builds the skis and does awesome tunes) of a fairly light all mountain ski surprised me at how quick and lively a ski could be while offering an edge I could trust. @markojp is right, weight is just one factor in ski performance.

The light car is a lot easier than the heavy car to pull out when they get stuck. Having a place several miles in on a dirt road, I know this firsthand.

Eric
 

markojp

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FWIW, skis are faster on the snow than in the air. The fastest racers on the hill are the ones best able to manage pressure and keep'em connected to the white stuff. I'm unaware of any truly light race skis. The bindings and plates add a bunch of mass. Sure ski great though.
 

martyg

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I asked you a leading question to see exactly what you thought the benefits are for a lighter ski. My assumption was that it was about the desire to have a lighter ski to "move" when skiing. My suspicion is that this is because your skiing movements include twisting of the skis; a movement where a lighter ski (or reduced weight at the tip and tails) becomes easier. I'll just leave it there...

Winner winner chicken dinner.

I would just add a friendly amendment / point of clarification to Noodler's quote, It is not "twisting" the skis but rather rotating your femur in your hip socket to rotate the skis.

Study the ways that you can influence your skis. If you dig light weight it will tell you something about your skiing strengths and weaknesses.
 

Eleeski

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I lose lots of GNAR points throwing twisters off little bumps.

I have no idea what is the deal with rotating femurs vs twisting skis vs whatever to turn skis. Different situations call for different techniques. The best skiers and skis are capable of a wide range of inputs to get the desired result. A well designed ski will carve - regardless of its weight. A skilled skier can make a good (Goode!) light ski carve. Sometimes you just need a jump turn or to hockey stop.

A heavy ski might be good in the bumps - but it takes more energy (as a weak old guy, I will tire faster with a heavy ski). On the other hand, my quads, core and calves will work harder in cut up crud or really rough snow to adjust for light skis.

Internet spectators can probably tell more about how I ski by noting that I like short skis; with 0 and 3 degree edges and rarely wax - rather than my preference for light skis. Length is a bigger factor than weight for high speed stability (adjusted for rocker issues). Edges and wax matter more than weight for speed.

Regardless, it is clear that "I AM the best skier on the mountain!" GNAR!

Eric
 

Dakine

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And you guys aren't even talking about weight distribution, mass centralization and polar moment of inertia.
Yet....
In high level motorcycle racing those topics are where the action is.
As far as light, there is Mr. Goode.
He can sure build them light but he doesn't seem to know exactly what to build.
His products dominate water skiing.
 

markojp

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Winner winner chicken dinner.

I would just add a friendly amendment / point of clarification to Noodler's quote, It is not "twisting" the skis but rather rotating your femur in your hip socket to rotate the skis.

Study the ways that you can influence your skis. If you dig light weight it will tell you something about your skiing strengths and weaknesses.

We're sort of going out in the weeds speculating without video. There are a bunch of ways to twist a ski. Some keep you in balance (effective), others don't (not so effective). There's the rub. Eric is also a pretty small guy from what I recall reading somewhere, so his 'light and fun' might be 'squirrelly' to bigger folks. I'd imagine an 18# pair of GS skis might tire out a lot of folks over the course of a big vertical day. Anyhow...
 

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No manner of damping, stiffness or flex can make up for weight when it comes to variable conditions
Just speculating here, but I'm not sure that's really true. If a ski is stiff and/or damp enough, the weight shouldn't really matter... I provide plenty as the skier - the weight of the ski itself doesn't make much difference to the overall package.

So if a ski was stiff and damp enough it should behave fine in rough/ variable conditions even if light. My suspicion is that weight is an easy way to make the ski damped, but it doesn't have to be that way.
 

oldschoolskier

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The ski industry (as most industries) are caught with bringing out a new products every few years to sell. Consider this planned obsolescence.

True development is generally (though not always) a reaction to adaptation and covering a need of a solution.

In various threads we have seen discussions of the newest, latest, greatest development. Some are actually new, some are old ideas that are just presented as new, very few are truely new and great and the tests just becoming a passing fad, which is sold for a few years.

In looking at what’s been happening in the last 10 years or so, there has been some good tweaking of ski designs for great all around skis and specialty skis. Boots and stance as been tweaked to match the skis. My guess the biggest change is going to come in Bindings in terms of safety to prevent injuries while providing the retention needed at all levels. When......that’s the million dollar question.

The rest of the changes are just to make sales.

In the mean time :popcorn::beercheer:.
 
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Philpug

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@oldschoolskier, I don't think it's as simple as planned obsolescence but the ability to make a product better, while there are some skis from a decade ago that ski well, I think in almost every situation, the newer counterpart skis better. That to me falls under true development too. As far as binding evolution getting better, that is a tough one, the question is, while we need it, is the consumer willing to pay for it? I do think to an extent bindings are limited to the current designs...even the Howell binding is a derived from previously used parts. I think if something is going to change in bindings, it has to start with a complete clean slate and there will be some electronics involved. But considering what we ask a binding to do, they do a pretty good job.
 

Alexzn

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Light vs heavy: no skier is craving for a heavy ski per say, what they crave is dampness and ability to hold the line in variable snow that weight and metal tend to provide.

To me the next evolution of design is in the materials that make lighter skis like DPS or Head Kores perform well in variable snow. I still remember the Kastle’s experiemnt where they had hollow plastic tubes down the ski length. Horrible skis and they killed the brand. Fast forward to today, Head Kores can ski big Alaska lines in variable snow and feel fine. I actually remember when I realized that Kore is a good ski: a shallow powder Mammoth day in a complete fog where you needed to ski by Braille and when even the 117 mm waist the ski was bottoming out all the time. It felt fine. Of course, we are all able to execute perfect carves in the trees at high speed in deep heavy powder, but this particular skis does need to swing the skis sideways from time to time to avoid contact with a tree that refuses to move. I’d much rather have that Kore on my feet at that moment than something like Nordica Helldorado. Of course, if you are blasting through chop all day, the Heavy Helldorado has its own pluses, but at a cost.

My everyday ski is still a pretty heavy FX95HP ( their weight-reducing tip inserts are probably more for looks), so in regular snow I still prefer to suffer weight penalties for maximizing dampness. But as soon as someone figures the materials equation to provide damp ride at reasonably light weight, the market will respond. It can be Renoun’s way, it can be something like what DPS/ Head are doing, who knows, but my prediction is that it’s the next revolution.
 

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