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cantunamunch

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Light is the new short.

When I say they are reactionary in nature, I mean that both the lightness fad and the shortness fad are reactions to fatter skis.
 

Eleeski

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Fads? My longest skis are just under 180 cm. Used to be just under 200. The short skis are way better.

Lots of people are able to just roll the ski on edge and turn. That's why skis can be popular when heavy. But in bumps, jump turning in steep chutes and forced turns in tight tree powder, light weight is a huge advantage. I like those scenarios. I like light skis.

I hope the light ski"fad" lasts as long as "short" skis.

Eric
 

cantunamunch

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Fads? My longest skis are just under 180 cm. Used to be just under 200. The short skis are way better.

Yes, fads - and you just proved it with your post. :D

The fact that you're on 180cm instead of ~162cm from the Sceneo/Whistler/Metron/Icelantic era shows that fad is over.
 

BoofHead

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Here's what I've noticed about ski evolution in some niche skis, e.g. Dynastar Legends, Stockli Stormriders, Head Monster 108.
1. Company makes a great hard-charging ski, perfectly designed for very fast skilled skiers.
2. The ski gets a reputation among skiers who actually ski very fast and want to be in control at all times.
3. The ski is very popular in it's small niche market, and the buz makes other less skilled wanna-be skiers want it.
4. The company knows the wanna-be skiers can't handle the truth, and the company want's to sell skis, so they water down the hard-charging ski.
5. The marketing gurus all parrot the company line, the new model is almost as good at high performance high speed skiing, and much more accessible. (a blatant lie; the ski is now neutered and would be a death trap at very high speeds).
Sometimes the company goes too far and has to backtrack, but that is rare.
My older, cambered , no early rise, stiff af Mantras got taken out of retirement this year. I had forgotten how awesome they are.
 

Eleeski

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Yes, fads - and you just proved it with your post. :D

The fact that you're on 180cm instead of ~162cm from the Sceneo/Whistler/Metron/Icelantic era shows that fad is over.

Hmmm, I got several days on my 165 Head SL. I bought ski blades last year but a knee injury kept me from trying them. No demos or swapped days on anything over 180. Short skis rock!

Of course, a shorter ski will weigh less....

Eric
 

KingGrump

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Hmmm, I got several days on my 165 Head SL. I bought ski blades last year but a knee injury kept me from trying them. No demos or swapped days on anything over 180. Short skis rock!

Of course, a shorter ski will weigh less....

Eric

Not necessary.
You really don't want or need you race SL to weight less.

In fact my Atomic FIS SL 158 with X16 binding is way heavier than my Volkl Gotama (108 under foot) 186 cm with Marker Jester.
 
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Noodler

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Weight is weight and there is no substitute. Weight provides a portion of the stability of a ski. Going too light sacrifices that stability. It's just that simple.
 
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Philpug

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There is some NSFW language. Heavy is good, heavy is reliable...
 

cantunamunch

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Hmmm, I got several days on my 165 Head SL. I bought ski blades last year but a knee injury kept me from trying them. No demos or swapped days on anything over 180. Short skis rock!

Of course, a shorter ski will weigh less....

Eric

Now imagine an entire ski design epoch when one of the dominant trends was to take an 'all mountain' rec-SL and blow up the waist size to over 70mm. That's how we got skis like the Sceneo, Whistler/Whisper, and (most notably) Metron.
 

Josh Matta

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Light rocks! Material science allows a designer to keep the properties we like but with less weight. This is the evolution that can improve a good design.

I don't think that Bonafides are good because they are too heavy to turn. The strong skiers are able to turn them well. The weaker skiers (like me) suffer with the weight. Is opening up the ski to a wider audience ruining the ski? Even if the ski is shaped and flexes identically?

There is a huge percentage of skiers who are ageing. They may disproportionately buy new skis. As we age, we do get weaker and slower. A light ski is an advantage for an older skier. And it's easier to carry!

Eric

I am not so sure...

I find heavier stiffer boots and heavier skis much easier to ski on in more open areas. Even bump skiing the heavier/stiffer ski tend to get kicked around less at all speed. Going slow is easy on anything, going faster is easier when the snow can not affect my balance all that much.
 
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Philpug

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I am not so sure...

I find heavier stiffer boots and heavier skis much easier to ski on in more open areas.
I will get back to you and the class on the boot part IF a heavier bit is better. I have been in a Head Raptor for the past 100 days of skiing and you all know it is one of the heaviest boots out there. I am now testing out the all new Salomon S/Max 130...which is one of the new generation of light weight boots. I molded the Salomon to mimic the stance of the Head (which I really like), it will be interesting how these two compare. Just wearing thet two boots in noticably different. Swinging the foot around in the Salomon, it is totally controllable, in the Head, momentum takes over. I will be taking theset two out one dawhen I can have one on one foot and one on the other. Stay tuned.

As far as light in a ski, I do think the bar can be swung too far...it really depends what the end goal is.
 

Scruffy

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As far as light in a ski, I do think the bar can be swung too far...it really depends what the end goal is.

and what sort of physical conditioning the skier is starting from...

And skill level. It's not an absolute that true expert level skiers need or seek big, heavy and stiff, even for on-piste.

I skied with one such rarity in Chamonix. A certified French mountain guide and ex ski racer working his way up to the word cup ( before an injury ended his racing days) . This guy was 6' 2''ish and fit but not necessarily a light weight. Born and raised in Chamonix. He skied on 175 cm ZAGs that were 72mm waist, and with dynafit bindings his skis weighed almost nothing compared to our skis ( if you know ZAGs, they are extremely light, even for their class ). And of course he was on AT boots. He guides all year and does randonee races in his spare time. He told us he skis those skis everywhere, everyday. He was our guide for a week. We had a mix of every type of condition, from ice and icy bumps lower on piste to thigh deep pow high and off piste. The pow was at times light, and then at times thick, heavy and crusty. We were a group of Americans who were on longer, wider, and stiffer big mountain skies, we were all solid skiers. He skied everything on those light skinny short skis with the aplomb you'd expect from someone born on skis and who skis almost every day of the year in every condition imaginable. He relished in "out skiing" us ( and of course he would out skis us ) in his light touring set up; so much so that often when we took our skis off he'd pass his light weight skis around for us to feel how light they were in comparison to ours, and then he'd chuckle at us and make an amusing comment about how over geared we were ( it was all in good fun). He showed us some of the lines he skis that he needs to repel down to to begin skiing and then repel out of - sick; we didn't ski those with him.

Is he an outlier compared to the typical expert weekend warrior, sure. He's even an outlier to the typical expert professional skier skiing big Alaska lines in extreme ski movies. But, the point is, we almost always attribute big, heavy, stiff skis with experts. The ski ranking and rating review system, to a ski, will place the burliest skis at the expert. Expert skiing is not always about muscling burly skis into submission. There are those that possess expert level talent that prefer a lighter softer ski.
 

Eleeski

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Only one sport that I can think of where weight is added - sailboat racing. Note the weight is specifically added in only one spot (the keel) and the rest of a top competition boat is built ridiculously light.

Sumo wrestlers and football linemen are heavy. Nothing in common with skiing. How many top skiers are fat?

Skiing can be improved if you lose those excess pounds. But that's hard. Just choosing lighter equipment is a lot easier. And you are targeting exactly what moves the most.

While choosing light equipment is easy, designing it is not. The designer wants the properties of the heavier ski with less weight. There are lots of ways to meet stiffness and flex specifications. The properties of a ski (or boot) CAN match despite significant weight differences.

Stressing over a gram or two won't change performance. But that's exactly what a designer must do to end up with a product that is a pound or two lighter. That difference will be noticed.

I'm waiting for the lightweight carbon/boron race skis. Game changers?

If it's really too light, add some lead. Hmmm, don't see that too often.

Eric
 

Josh Matta

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And skill level. It's not an absolute that true expert level skiers need or seek big, heavy and stiff, even for on-piste.

I skied with one such rarity in Chamonix. A certified French mountain guide and ex ski racer working his way up to the word cup ( before an injury ended his racing days) . This guy was 6' 2''ish and fit but not necessarily a light weight. Born and raised in Chamonix. He skied on 175 cm ZAGs that were 72mm waist, and with dynafit bindings his skis weighed almost nothing compared to our skis ( if you know ZAGs, they are extremely light, even for their class ). And of course he was on AT boots. He guides all year and does randonee races in his spare time. He told us he skis those skis everywhere, everyday. He was our guide for a week. We had a mix of every type of condition, from ice and icy bumps lower on piste to thigh deep pow high and off piste. The pow was at times light, and then at times thick, heavy and crusty. We were a group of Americans who were on longer, wider, and stiffer big mountain skies, we were all solid skiers. He skied everything on those light skinny short skis with the aplomb you'd expect from someone born on skis and who skis almost every day of the year in every condition imaginable. He relished in "out skiing" us ( and of course he would out skis us ) in his light touring set up; so much so that often when we took our skis off he'd pass his light weight skis around for us to feel how light they were in comparison to ours, and then he'd chuckle at us and make an amusing comment about how over geared we were ( it was all in good fun). He showed us some of the lines he skis that he needs to repel down to to begin skiing and then repel out of - sick; we didn't ski those with him.

Is he an outlier compared to the typical expert weekend warrior, sure. He's even an outlier to the typical expert professional skier skiing big Alaska lines in extreme ski movies. But, the point is, we almost always attribute big, heavy, stiff skis with experts. The ski ranking and rating review system, to a ski, will place the burliest skis at the expert. Expert skiing is not always about muscling burly skis into submission. There are those that possess expert level talent that prefer a lighter softer ski.

Did you ever think that because he was so good he could ski better than you guys on inadequate gear?

I mean I can out ski most people in the woods skiing on SL skis, or GS turn though crud on a light weight carver, but I am not going to say it that skis are ideal tools for the job. My love off stiffer boots and heavier gear is due to sheer laziness. I can work less hard on that equipment. Now if we talking uphill to ski smooth snow, than by all means give me tech,carbon and light weight touring boots.

I am not even talking about skiing on the biggest burliest skis either, in recent years while I still have some LONG burly skis my everyday skis have been some Monster 83 and Enforcer 93. the monster literally will not deflect for anything but even the E93 can get tossed in certain types of crud. My entire point is that stiffer, longer, straighter skis are not more work if you possess the skills to remain in balance on them.

I would even take it to the skier, I wont call skiers fat, but the average elite skiers BMI is much higher than you would think, Vonn is like 190lb @5'11 Ligety is 200lb, heck I run a 6:30 mile at 200lb.
 
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Philpug

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Only one sport that I can think of where weight is added - sailboat racing. Note the weight is specifically added in only one spot (the keel) and the rest of a top competition boat is built ridiculously light.

Sumo wrestlers and football linemen are heavy. Nothing in common with skiing. How many top skiers are fat?

Skiing can be improved if you lose those excess pounds. But that's hard. Just choosing lighter equipment is a lot easier. And you are targeting exactly what moves the most.

While choosing light equipment is easy, designing it is not. The designer wants the properties of the heavier ski with less weight. There are lots of ways to meet stiffness and flex specifications. The properties of a ski (or boot) CAN match despite significant weight differences.

Stressing over a gram or two won't change performance. But that's exactly what a designer must do to end up with a product that is a pound or two lighter. That difference will be noticed.

I'm waiting for the lightweight carbon/boron race skis. Game changers?

If it's really too light, add some lead. Hmmm, don't see that too often.

Eric
Racers (alpine not nordic) have some of the heaviest equipment. No one is adding weight..but reducing it does not seem to be a concern either.
 

Eleeski

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@Josh Matta I will certainly concede that more weight in muscle is good. Top skiers don't carry any excess weight (flab) so the BMI is misleading.

@Philpug Alpine racing has some extreme loads and requirements. Metal addresses those nicely and are proven. I just wonder if a radically advanced composite (like the boron/carbon I use in my waterskis) could do the same thing at lighter weight and offer a performance advantage. Snow ski competition is extremely conservative - until something really better comes along (Bode on shaped skis?).

The weight debate has been going on for decades in waterskiing. Every ski manufacturer now has a lightweight offering. Almost every National medalist is on a lightweight ski now. Much lighter than a decade ago. But not always the absolute lightest setup (except mine!).

Eric
Lovin' my Goode 74s
 

Scruffy

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Did you ever think that because he was so good he could ski better than you guys on inadequate gear?

I mean I can out ski most people in the woods skiing on SL skis, or GS turn though crud on a light weight carver, but I am not going to say it that skis are ideal tools for the job. My love off stiffer boots and heavier gear is due to sheer laziness. I can work less hard on that equipment. Now if we talking uphill to ski smooth snow, than by all means give me tech,carbon and light weight touring boots.

I am not even talking about skiing on the biggest burliest skis either, in recent years while I still have some LONG burly skis my everyday skis have been some Monster 83 and Enforcer 93. the monster literally will not deflect for anything but even the E93 can get tossed in certain types of crud. My entire point is that stiffer, longer, straighter skis are not more work if you possess the skills to remain in balance on them.

I would even take it to the skier, I wont call skiers fat, but the average elite skiers BMI is much higher than you would think, Vonn is like 190lb @5'11 Ligety is 200lb, heck I run a 6:30 mile at 200lb.

Absolutely. I have no doubt he could out ski us on some beginner noodle skis they rent to first evers. Nor do I have any doubt that you could out ski most in the woods on light weight carver skis. But that's not the point. His gear is not inadequate, for him, and he is, like you an expert. Different styles, different strokes. Some experts are finesse skiers.
 

François Pugh

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Heavy stiff skis are better at one thing, skiing faster. If you are not skiing faster, you will probably prefer a lighter ski.

Again, it's not experts that want stiff heavy skis; it's skiers who ski at high speeds who want the stiff heavy skis, and it just so happens that most folk who are not experts don't ski at those speeds.

If I'm skiing fresh powder or even untouched heavy wet snow in the trees between 5 and 30 mph, I'm much happier with a lighter ski. If I'm trying to set a new land speed record, I much prefer my antique, stiff, very heavy, SGs. Skiing cut up crud, I'm back to wanting a long heavy ski with a longer turn radius.
 

Noodler

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Only one sport that I can think of where weight is added - sailboat racing. Note the weight is specifically added in only one spot (the keel) and the rest of a top competition boat is built ridiculously light.

Sumo wrestlers and football linemen are heavy. Nothing in common with skiing. How many top skiers are fat?

Skiing can be improved if you lose those excess pounds. But that's hard. Just choosing lighter equipment is a lot easier. And you are targeting exactly what moves the most.

While choosing light equipment is easy, designing it is not. The designer wants the properties of the heavier ski with less weight. There are lots of ways to meet stiffness and flex specifications. The properties of a ski (or boot) CAN match despite significant weight differences.

Stressing over a gram or two won't change performance. But that's exactly what a designer must do to end up with a product that is a pound or two lighter. That difference will be noticed.

I'm waiting for the lightweight carbon/boron race skis. Game changers?

If it's really too light, add some lead. Hmmm, don't see that too often.

Eric

What do you see as the benefits of a lighter ski (excluding touring/uphill requirements)?
 

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