Evaluate my technique - 2nd attempt

[geepers]

If you give them specific guidance, they have a better chance of actually doing it and they will see for themselves whether it works or not.

Ok, @JESinstr has already had a go at this challenge. You are standing on the hill with the OP having just watched him ski. Now, specifically, what are you going to say/do?

 

[Nancy Hummel]

1. I would start by going to a green run and check out how he stands in his boots and see if there are any glaring issues that might suggest a boot alignment issue.

2. Look at his stance when clicked into bindings to see if the overall picture changed.

3. Maybe some video of current turns to compare/contrast at the end of the day.

4. Short discussion on what part of his foot does he feel when he skis. I would have him stand up on tip toe and feel his heels come up. I would then have him relax his ankles and feel the heel go down. I would ask him to keep light shin contact on the front of his boot but also to feel his calf touching the back of boot. I would then do some slow, round turns while having him concentrate on his whole foot keeping contact with the boot.

5. I would then have him do turns trying to get as far forward as possible and then switch to turns with weight back as far as possible so that he could develop an appreciation of the difference. I would demo the extremes so that he could see the difference in the ski performance with the change in fore/aft distribution. Have him do some easy turns while flexing knees and hips without the ankles and then play with having all of the movement start from the ankles. Again, so he can appreciate the difference in the different mechanisms. Perhaps video for later use.

6. Assuming that he was able to start developing a feel for being centered, I would discuss turning mechanisms and the concept of flattening the old outside ski to release the edge. Short discussion about the mechanics of edge release, specifically, tipping of the feet/ankles or moving the knee over the toe, or moving the hip over the ski to allow the ski to flatten. I would do some static demos and practice and then move to side slipping in a corridor which would give him practice with edge release along with adjusting fore/aft balance to stay in the corridor. (Lots of practice time)

7. I would then move to garlands across the hill with edge engagement, edge release and then to diagonal side slips into the turn. (Lots of practice time)

8. Short discussion about femur rotation and turning the whole leg, once the old outside ski is flat and starting to go down the hill. Show/do the difference between the turning movement starting from the femur as opposed to the foot. Show/do the difference between having to do something other than turn the legs if the old outside ski remains on edge. Slow turns on easy terrain. More video here. (Lots of practice time)

9. At the end of the day, review the video and discussing the differences with the different stances.

The objectives of the above are:

• Develop a centered stance so that he will be able to rotate his legs, have the pivot point be the center of the ski and have the ability to tip/untip.
• Understand and execute the concept of flexing all joints (ankle, knee and hip proportionately) so that he can adjust fore/aft balance at will.
• Understand and execute the releasing of the old outside ski so that he has the ability to turn his legs to start the turn.
• Have the tail follow the tip of the ski instead of current heel push.
• Lots of practice time on green/easy blue terrain to allow acquisition of the new movement patterns.

And then in the 2nd hour, I would..... Just kidding. The above could likely be an all day lesson.

 

[markojp]

Not a lot of teaching experience but I can't imagine (as a student) that having my skiing torn to pieces and told a tonne of work will be required to fix is going to lead to a great student-instructor relationship. (Thankfully no-one has yet done that to me although I'm pretty sure they would have plenty of justification.)

I can't point to any specific part of the CSIA instructor's syllabus that says "Don't tell them their skiing sux" however it is certainly implied in things like the learning contract, in guest services educational module and in the way course conveners conduct themselves. Perhaps it's in the same class of unstated rules such as "Don't pick fights" and "Don't steal".

The approach is more like - it took the whole of the student's skiing career to reach this point, warts and all, so let's see what we can add to the student's skiing within the confines of the situation. (Time frame, conditions, etc.) Taking something away tends to be difficult so the best thing is to add some other focus/cue that will change/replace it.



Yep. To pass CSIA L3 Teach this absolutely needs to be done. Tell them what you want them to do and why. Show them statically the specific positions/movements required. Get them to statically replicate those positions/movements, adjusting them where necessary. Prime them for the cue they should feel. Do a kick-ass demo. Observe the students doing it, ask them about the cue and provide relevant feedback. Repeat until they get it right or some change/variation is required.

Interaction on the internet means much of that cannot be be as tailored as 1-2-1 on snow. Words can only go so far in describing what's wanted and it's not easy to find just the right demo vid.

For those (like me) not up to speed on PSIA...
Balance / Edging / Rotary / Pressure control

I don't think anyone is saying to the OP, " you're skiing sucks." I'm certainly not, though I would tell him that if we're to make progress, we'll need to work on a couple of small, but fundementally different sources of movements that will lead to more consistent outcomes that demand much lower caloric output than he's currently expending. I like to say, "this will be so easy, you'll have to go on a diet!" Yes, I use that line, and I don't think making fundemental changes to a client's skiing has to be an adverserial relationship at all. That isn't how you get repeat business in recreational skiing.

I'm also leary of getting into the whole "CSIA does X and PSIA does Y" thing. Though operating under the umbrella of PSIA, I greatly appreciate and follow carefully what CSIA does. I also know that within PSIA, I've had a long leash (so long as it's effective) to do what I feel needs to be done to make positive changes in peoples' skiing. And yes, we talk about "this is what I see, this is the change I'd like to see and why, and this is how we're going to get there." I would do this with the OP. On one point though, you're correct. My replies have been lacking in nuance and detail. Why? Honestly, getting into specifics about 'what,how, and why' of ski instruction in a broad segment online discussion forum isn't very productive.


One final quick comment: you wrote, "Yep. To pass CSIA L3 Teach this absolutely needs to be done. Tell them what you want them to do and why. Show them statically the specific positions/movements required. Get them to statically replicate those positions/movements, adjusting them where necessary. Prime them for the cue they should feel. Do a kick-ass demo. Observe the students doing it, ask them about the cue and provide relevant feedback. Repeat until they get it right or some change/variation is required."

FWIW, this is also what one would need to do to pass PSIA L3. In many regards, the two associations are kissing cousins.

 

[JESinstr]

@geepers you confirm my approach which was not to be critical. I said "You ski well. You use your upper body a lot and it works. You should try however another approach and see how it works for you."

Maybe what I suggested wasn't perfect. Legs, not feet - but in spite of what @JESinstr said, to just say "get off your heels - FIRST" is useless. Everyone knows this. Learning to use your lower body to control your movements creates body positions that pressure the outside ski and the middle/front of the foot.

Steve, did you have the chance to read my post #22 to @geepers above? It was a progression put together to address getting skiers off their heels and to balance through the arch. More importantly, the #1 item addressed the hinge complex and the importance that proper articulation (your avatar) plays in achieving centered balance. You have been an unwavering champion of this concept and I commend you for this.

 

[geepers]

1. I would start by going to a green run and check out how he stands in his boots and see if there are any glaring issues that might suggest a boot alignment issue.

2. Look at his stance when clicked into bindings to see if the overall picture changed.

3. Maybe some video of current turns to compare/contrast at the end of the day.

4. Short discussion on what part of his foot does he feel when he skis. I would have him stand up on tip toe and feel his heels come up. I would then have him relax his ankles and feel the heel go down. I would ask him to keep light shin contact on the front of his boot but also to feel his calf touching the back of boot. I would then do some slow, round turns while having him concentrate on his whole foot keeping contact with the boot.

5. I would then have him do turns trying to get as far forward as possible and then switch to turns with weight back as far as possible so that he could develop an appreciation of the difference. I would demo the extremes so that he could see the difference in the ski performance with the change in fore/aft distribution. Have him do some easy turns while flexing knees and hips without the ankles and then play with having all of the movement start from the ankles. Again, so he can appreciate the difference in the different mechanisms. Perhaps video for later use.

6. Assuming that he was able to start developing a feel for being centered, I would discuss turning mechanisms and the concept of flattening the old outside ski to release the edge. Short discussion about the mechanics of edge release, specifically, tipping of the feet/ankles or moving the knee over the toe, or moving the hip over the ski to allow the ski to flatten. I would do some static demos and practice and then move to side slipping in a corridor which would give him practice with edge release along with adjusting fore/aft balance to stay in the corridor. (Lots of practice time)

7. I would then move to garlands across the hill with edge engagement, edge release and then to diagonal side slips into the turn. (Lots of practice time)

8. Short discussion about femur rotation and turning the whole leg, once the old outside ski is flat and starting to go down the hill. Show/do the difference between the turning movement starting from the femur as opposed to the foot. Show/do the difference between having to do something other than turn the legs if the old outside ski remains on edge. Slow turns on easy terrain. More video here. (Lots of practice time)

9. At the end of the day, review the video and discussing the differences with the different stances.

The objectives of the above are:

• Develop a centered stance so that he will be able to rotate his legs, have the pivot point be the center of the ski and have the ability to tip/untip.
• Understand and execute the concept of flexing all joints (ankle, knee and hip proportionately) so that he can adjust fore/aft balance at will.
• Understand and execute the releasing of the old outside ski so that he has the ability to turn his legs to start the turn.
• Have the tail follow the tip of the ski instead of current heel push.
• Lots of practice time on green/easy blue terrain to allow acquisition of the new movement patterns.

And then in the 2nd hour, I would..... Just kidding. The above could likely be an all day lesson.

Great stuff. Excellent clarification on time in the last para.

And now I'm going to throw back to the OP. @musicmatters there's two posts here from instructors detailing 1st off specifics. You could follow up by executing, re-viding and re-posting to get the missing ingredient that forum instruction like this can't instantaneously provide - feedback. Then after some days/weeks to and fro you may have made progress. Or you could do an actual lesson and make some progress in a couple of hours.

I don't think anyone is saying to the OP, " you're skiing sucks." I'm certainly not, though I would tell him that if we're to make progress, we'll need to work on a couple of small, but fundementally different sources of movements that will lead to more consistent outcomes that demand much lower caloric output than he's currently expending. I like to say, "this will be so easy, you'll have to go on a diet!" Yes, I use that line, and I don't think making fundemental changes to a client's skiing has to be an adverserial relationship at all. That isn't how you get repeat business in recreational skiing.

I'm also leary of getting into the whole "CSIA does X and PSIA does Y" thing. Though operating under the umbrella of PSIA, I greatly appreciate and follow carefully what CSIA does. I also know that within PSIA, I've had a long leash (so long as it's effective) to do what I feel needs to be done to make positive changes in peoples' skiing. And yes, we talk about "this is what I see, this is the change I'd like to see and why, and this is how we're going to get there." I would do this with the OP. On one point though, you're correct. My replies have been lacking in nuance and detail. Why? Honestly, getting into specifics about 'what,how, and why' of ski instruction in a broad segment online discussion forum isn't very productive.


One final quick comment: you wrote, "Yep. To pass CSIA L3 Teach this absolutely needs to be done. Tell them what you want them to do and why. Show them statically the specific positions/movements required. Get them to statically replicate those positions/movements, adjusting them where necessary. Prime them for the cue they should feel. Do a kick-ass demo. Observe the students doing it, ask them about the cue and provide relevant feedback. Repeat until they get it right or some change/variation is required."

FWIW, this is also what one would need to do to pass PSIA L3. In many regards, the two associations are kissing cousins.

Just to add - the only reason I do the chapter/verse CSIA thing is 'cause it's the only one I know a little about. Sort of implicitly asking what happens in everyone else's neck of the woods. Should be more explicit in posing that question.

 

[Steve]

@JESinstr thanks for the kind words, yes I read your post which was very good. What I was objecting to however was your other post where you were dismissive of other suggestions, kind of out of character for you as you're such a positive poster.

I agree with you, marko and Nancy that foot awareness, center and usage are key. However another of my mantras here on PS and on epic for many years has been that there are more than one way to do things, to teach things and to express things.

Upper Body vs. Lower Body was my focus. Not mutually exclusive of a foot focus. In teaching I do start with foot awareness.

 

[JESinstr]

@Steve I apologize if you took my balance focused comments as being dismissive. That was not my intent.

Like in many sports, there are foundational requirements and I think most will agree, that in skiing, centered balance is one of them. Teaching proper balance should be job 1 for a vast majority of instructors as most lessons are of the beginner variety. But getting a beginner to become center balanced is much easier than getting an established skier to change the way they balance and unfortunately, many skiers can have a great ski life skiing in the back seat. But being in the the back seat affects the upper/lower body relationship in totally different ways than a center balanced skier so offering up center balanced solutions when the balance is aft, ain't gonna work IMO.

Now more to your focus on upper body, lower body. Remember the post where you brought up the idea of "spread the toes, spread the feet"? Well I took that thought in the context of the need for muscular tension (Ref Ron Kipp's ankles video) and extended it to the hands as a means of creating movement control in the arms and upper body and incorporated it into the teaching of beginners to center balance. The results this past season were impressive.

 

[Nancy Hummel]

@Steve I apologize if you took my balance focused comments as being dismissive. That was not my intent.

Like in many sports, there are foundational requirements and I think most will agree, that in skiing, centered balance is one of them. Teaching proper balance should be job 1 for a vast majority of instructors as most lessons are of the beginner variety. But getting a beginner to become center balanced is much easier than getting an established skier to change the way they balance and unfortunately, many skiers can have a great ski life skiing in the back seat. But being in the the back seat affects the upper/lower body relationship in totally different ways than a center balanced skier so offering up center balanced solutions when the balance is aft, ain't gonna work IMO.

Now more to your focus on upper body, lower body. Remember the post where you brought up the idea of "spread the toes, spread the feet"? Well I took that thought in the context of the need for muscular tension (Ref Ron Kipp's ankles video) and extended it to the hands as a means of creating movement control in the arms and upper body and incorporated it into the teaching of beginners to center balance. The results this past season were impressive.

I agree. The main issue for many recreational skiers is that they are not balanced. Many instructors as well. I was in aclinic and we were discussing how to work with students on leg rotation. We did some slow leg rotation turns on shallow terrain and mostly everyone started out just a little bit back. Adjust the stance a bit and people are able to turn their legs. There is not much discussion by instructors about stance/balance which is too bad. Many skiers do not want to delve into the minutiae of ski technique like we do. Correcting their stance can yield huge benefits
Immediately.

 

[JESinstr]

I agree. The main issue for many recreational skiers is that they are not balanced. Many instructors as well. I was in aclinic and we were discussing how to work with students on leg rotation. We did some slow leg rotation turns on shallow terrain and mostly everyone started out just a little bit back. Adjust the stance a bit and people are able to turn their legs. There is not much discussion by instructors about stance/balance which is too bad. Many skiers do not want to delve into the minutiae of ski technique like we do. Correcting their stance can yield huge benefits
Immediately.

Excellent Post! Touched a lot of bases!

 

[James]

Was there a 1st version?
It's flowy defensive skiing.
But, plenty of people ski not even as well all sorts of places like that. Some quite difficult slopes.

So, what can we really offer by improving his skiing?
I mean I think it would be more fun, but who knows.

Appreciate any feedback or advice, I am looking to become more smooth and improve on the “infinity move” technique.

Why the infinity? Just curious what you're thinking, what that will get you. I can see you're kind of trying to do it

Fundamentally, you have to shift your paradigm from pushing the skis, usually your tails, to guiding the tips of the skis on a curved path. The body takes a slightly inside path. Everything everyone is saying about feet and balance come into play.

If you want to screw around, try going straight downhill to get some speed, then make one turn and see how far up the hill you can go. Snow firm enough to get bite but not super so the edge sharpness becomes important. If you do this with someone who races or is a good carver there will be a big difference.

 

[geepers]

Now more to your focus on upper body, lower body. Remember the post where you brought up the idea of "spread the toes, spread the feet"? Well I took that thought in the context of the need for muscular tension (Ref Ron Kipp's ankles video) and extended it to the hands as a means of creating movement control in the arms and upper body and incorporated it into the teaching of beginners to center balance. The results this past season were impressive.

Could you elaborate on this tension in the hands.

How does it play out wrt ?

 

[JESinstr]

Could you elaborate on this tension in the hands.

How does it play out wrt ?

Although I am totally on board with Ron's viewpoint, I am using tension to address a different scenario. With beginners, we need first to train their body to center balance while standing on a platform vs the heel biased balance they bring with them to the slopes. Creating tension, be it in the feet, core and now I advocate hands, steadies and creates awareness of position. An analogy would be learning to write, before you can train the fingers, you need to grasp (create tension) the pencil. At first, this is a very rigid process until you "get the hang of it" which is another way of saying that the movement patterns begin to ingrain and and become more autonomic.

In your stocking feet, get in the "ready position" and flex your feet, core and hands, you should feel a sense of "solidness" for lack of a better term. Nothing flying around, especially the hands as is the focus of Ron't vid. In addition, by flexing the toes up you will find it makes you balance through the arch between the back of the balls of the foot and the front of the heel pad.

Make sense? As I said, this focus on tension really sped up the beginner progression time this past season.