Didn't just pick those vids at random.
So... question for you. You are standing on the snow with the OP. You have about 90 minutes left in the lesson (after lift ride, warm-up and ski assessment). What are you going to do for the rest of the lesson?
-
For more information on how to avoid pop-up ads and still support SkiTalk click HERE.
Evaluate my technique - 2nd attempt
- Thread starter musicmatters
- Start date
Didn't just pick those vids at random.
So... question for you. You are standing on the snow with the OP. You have about 90 minutes left in the lesson (after lift ride, warm-up and ski assessment). What are you going to do for the rest of the lesson?
- Joined
- May 4, 2017
- Posts
- 1,139
Sure looks like you did. Only one out of five hit the mark.
OK, I'll take your bait with the understanding that there are many great teachers out there with many great ways of getting positive outcomes from their clients. One of my teaching beliefs is that if someone is in a hole, they can't get out of it by digging sideways. They need to get out of the hole and start anew. I am also going to assume that the client understands that balance focus has to change and that he/she is willing to put the time in. Those are my caveats.
1. Take the client over to the magic carpet and discuss the concept of how the hinge complex (ankles/knees/hips) combine in flexion to keep the COM directed through the arch. Ankles most important, hips most critical. As simplistic as this approach might seem, remember we are attempting to change the way someone has been statically balancing all their life.... through their heels. And now they have unwittingly applied that technique to a static platform that is unfortunately moving. This is what has to change.
2. At slow speed, practice varying straight wedges and focus on proper flexing so that client feels tension build and ebb in the arch as the wedge widens and narrows. Have the client experience the difference of building of the wedge via heel push vs center arch rotation and the different leg movements that go with it.
3. When ready, implement wedge turns based on balance-through-the-arch lower body movement patterns. If the client can't do this on a magic carpet slope, then their skill level is not sufficient and you need to stay on mild terrain until you see the skill level achieved.
4. Move on to the Bunny chair and integrate the new balance lower body movement patterns into a medium radius turns. Begin using one of the best drills in skiing IMO, the pole drag. Since you are on the Bunny slope, low speeds will allow the client to focus on the lower body while proper hand position and solid contact of the pole tips with the surface will help maintain upper body stability and promote separation. Use repetitive garlands to reinforce the movement patterns.
5. If progress is being made in terms of balance and upper body stability, work on the lower body by introducing the concept of active inside leg shortening and lateral pelvis movement to the inside in order to build progressively higher edge angles. If the client is reliably balancing through the arch, you should not see signs of excessive tip lead. Continue using the pole drag as an aid to accomplish these new additions.
6. Finally, move on to more challenging terrain and see if the client can perform the newly learned movement patterns there. To fortify the separation of upper and lower body, you can use the "Pole tuck" drill. Hold the poles horizontally out in front with palms down and about 3 inches apart. Then, cross the hands and roll the pole up into your armpits. Go ski. The tucking of poles provides upper body tension/stability and gives you a visual cue as to how the upper body is separating from the lower.
Probably won't take 90 minutes.
Good lesson outline.
Probably the one thing that stands out (from what the CSIA folk taught me) is to give the student a chance to use a new movement 1st before breaking it down - sometimes they will just start doing it immediately. Then again, maybe the break-down approach is better at locking in fundamental changes.
Random...
Well, not quite. 1st vid was to get OP thinking quiet upper body, ski from lower body. The next vids were on how to do that. Both of the last two are to do with balance point and steering from the center - try making that bow tie by heel pushing.One issue with posting vids - often it's hard to find exactly the right vid/s! A picture is worth 1,000 words so a vid conveys a lot of words.
- Joined
- May 4, 2017
- Posts
- 1,139
Good lesson outline.
Probably the one thing that stands out (from what the CSIA folk taught me) is to give the student a chance to use a new movement 1st before breaking it down - sometimes they will just start doing it immediately. Then again, maybe the break-down approach is better at locking in fundamental changes.
Random...
One issue with posting vids - often it's hard to find exactly the right vid/s! A picture is worth 1,000 words so a vid conveys a lot of words.
Thanks!
I agree that if you show something and the student does it, STOP TEACHING!
Didn't mean to be negative on the choice of Josh Vids. Where I was coming from is that in the first 4, what Josh is advocating is built on already having proper fore/aft balance which the op does not have. That was my poorly stated point. But as I said, the last vid nailed it!
Thank you. Wondered why it took so long for no one to mention that the OP is skiing with the upper body and not starting with the feet. Everyone got distracted by the arms. They're a sympton, not a cause.
- Joined
- Nov 13, 2015
- Posts
- 2,338
"You use your upper body a lot and it works."
... but it won't (and doesn't) when the OP is more pressed by conditions and terrain. You mentioned legs which is great, but we need to start from the feet first. After that, then we get to what you mentioned. Good stuff.
Last edited:
- Joined
- May 4, 2017
- Posts
- 1,139
If you want to be patted on the head, consider yourself patted.
But your analysis, as was Steve's, was flawed because you failed to see that OP was balancing through the heels of his feet. That was the fundamental issue.
You did not analyze from the bottom up. I can only assume his active upper body caught your eye first. But make no mistake, It is the OP's redirection of his skis by pushing out his heels, while balancing over same, that gives rise to what happens upstairs. So telling him he needs to quiet his upper body down and let the legs do the work does not address the root of the problem which is learning to center balance.
Much of what you so eloquently wrote to him is un-executable because of the ingrained way he implements balance. There is a reason that the BERP diagram was design with BALANCE being central to everything.
If you want to be patted on the head, consider yourself patted.
But your analysis, as was Steve's, was flawed because you failed to see that OP was balancing through the heels of his feet. That was the fundamental issue.
You did not analyze from the bottom up. I can only assume his active upper body caught your eye first. But make no mistake, It is the OP's redirection of his skis by pushing out his heels, while balancing over same, that gives rise to what happens upstairs. So telling him he needs to quiet his upper body down and let the legs do the work does not address the root of the problem which is learning to center balance.
Much of what you so eloquently wrote to him is un-executable because of the ingrained way he implements balance. There is a reason that the BERP diagram was design with BALANCE being central to everything.
Clearly you are the superior person for MA.
Last edited:
Yes. If the OP wants to change his skiing, there's some very basic new coding that has to be done.
There is good information in many of the posts.
Teaching skiing on an internet forum is challenging.
Put yourself in the ski boots of the OP. We need to give him more “how” instead of “what”.
We can tell him to turn his legs, keep his upper body quiet or whatever but those words do not tell him how to do any of that. Working with an instructor with real time feedback to address stance and balance so that he can be in a position to turn his legs is the first step.
Teaching skiing on an internet forum is challenging.
Put yourself in the ski boots of the OP. We need to give him more “how” instead of “what”.
We can tell him to turn his legs, keep his upper body quiet or whatever but those words do not tell him how to do any of that. Working with an instructor with real time feedback to address stance and balance so that he can be in a position to turn his legs is the first step.
Last edited:
Amen. Not only on the internet but in real life instruction too. Tell the pupil what specific movements to make, when, and how to do so. Abstract suggestions, ski in better balance, control your edges, make smoother movements, quiet upper body, etc., all of which I’ve heard out of the mouths of instructors, are useless absent specific advice on how to achieve them.
Not a lot of teaching experience but I can't imagine (as a student) that having my skiing torn to pieces and told a tonne of work will be required to fix is going to lead to a great student-instructor relationship. (Thankfully no-one has yet done that to me although I'm pretty sure they would have plenty of justification.)
I can't point to any specific part of the CSIA instructor's syllabus that says "Don't tell them their skiing sux" however it is certainly implied in things like the learning contract, in guest services educational module and in the way course conveners conduct themselves. Perhaps it's in the same class of unstated rules such as "Don't pick fights" and "Don't steal".
The approach is more like - it took the whole of the student's skiing career to reach this point, warts and all, so let's see what we can add to the student's skiing within the confines of the situation. (Time frame, conditions, etc.) Taking something away tends to be difficult so the best thing is to add some other focus/cue that will change/replace it.
Yep. To pass CSIA L3 Teach this absolutely needs to be done. Tell them what you want them to do and why. Show them statically the specific positions/movements required. Get them to statically replicate those positions/movements, adjusting them where necessary. Prime them for the cue they should feel. Do a kick-ass demo. Observe the students doing it, ask them about the cue and provide relevant feedback. Repeat until they get it right or some change/variation is required.
Interaction on the internet means much of that cannot be be as tailored as 1-2-1 on snow. Words can only go so far in describing what's wanted and it's not easy to find just the right demo vid.
For those (like me) not up to speed on PSIA...
Balance / Edging / Rotary / Pressure control
I can't point to any specific part of the CSIA instructor's syllabus that says "Don't tell them their skiing sux" however it is certainly implied in things like the learning contract, in guest services educational module and in the way course conveners conduct themselves. Perhaps it's in the same class of unstated rules such as "Don't pick fights" and "Don't steal".
The approach is more like - it took the whole of the student's skiing career to reach this point, warts and all, so let's see what we can add to the student's skiing within the confines of the situation. (Time frame, conditions, etc.) Taking something away tends to be difficult so the best thing is to add some other focus/cue that will change/replace it.
Yep. To pass CSIA L3 Teach this absolutely needs to be done. Tell them what you want them to do and why. Show them statically the specific positions/movements required. Get them to statically replicate those positions/movements, adjusting them where necessary. Prime them for the cue they should feel. Do a kick-ass demo. Observe the students doing it, ask them about the cue and provide relevant feedback. Repeat until they get it right or some change/variation is required.
Interaction on the internet means much of that cannot be be as tailored as 1-2-1 on snow. Words can only go so far in describing what's wanted and it's not easy to find just the right demo vid.
For those (like me) not up to speed on PSIA...
Balance / Edging / Rotary / Pressure control
I'm not so sure... depends on the student and the context. Probably not good in a 2 hour lesson, but it may be OK in a multi-day camp. Especially if you don't blame them. (When I was told that, it was framed by "the way good skiers start a turn has changed a lot in recent years." Of course, that change not so recent now.)
Could be student dependent. Not sure "sux" is a great plan for some-one you met 10 minutes ago. There's always time to adjust if it becomes apparent they want a 'direct' approach.
At least one ski school/movement seems to market themselves on the flagellation approach. Nothing wrong with that if it's up front and people know what they are going into.
- Joined
- Nov 13, 2015
- Posts
- 2,338
@geepers you confirm my approach which was not to be critical. I said "You ski well. You use your upper body a lot and it works. You should try however another approach and see how it works for you."
Maybe what I suggested wasn't perfect. Legs, not feet - but in spite of what @JESinstr said, to just say "get off your heels - FIRST" is useless. Everyone knows this. Learning to use your lower body to control your movements creates body positions that pressure the outside ski and the middle/front of the foot.
Maybe what I suggested wasn't perfect. Legs, not feet - but in spite of what @JESinstr said, to just say "get off your heels - FIRST" is useless. Everyone knows this. Learning to use your lower body to control your movements creates body positions that pressure the outside ski and the middle/front of the foot.
Many people come to ski school because they realize they have limitations. They know that they do ok on groomers but struggle in the bumps or whatever. They tell you! You can ask questions about what they want to do and you can show them how their current movement patterns may be hindering their ability to ski trees etc.
If you give them specific guidance, they have a better chance of actually doing it and they will see for themselves whether it works or not.
