European vs American style skiing

[SBrown]

OK let's try something different for the benefit of those who have never skied in Europe. ...
To be clear there is no halfway house - you shouldn't travel to Europe with an expectation that you can just busk it like you do in a US resort you haven't skied before. ...

Yeah, that.

 

[James]

Otherwise if you are an "all mountain" skier and particularly if you view groomers as the way back to the lift or something to do when conditions elsewhere are crappy, then you will be selling yourself short if you go to Europe without a plan for how you are going to ski off piste. That means willingness to spend money on guides etc or investment in your own avy kit and knowledge such that you are competent scoping unfamiliar terrain and making good decisions including navigation when outside the markers.* To be clear there is no halfway house - you shouldn't travel to Europe with an expectation that you can just busk it like you do in a US resort you haven't skied before.


* I do lots of off piste skiing in Europe and actually relatively little with a guide but beyond that which I can scope from safe places I won't go places wothout someone who has been there before and knows the route . Following tracks or trusting that other groups ahead of you know what they are doing is a recipe for disaster or at least a bit of Type II fun.

Excellent point. This is a reason people might get frustrated skiing Europe. If your intent is to ski off piste, and your not satisfied with a little, then how will you accomplish that? It requires some planing and extra expenditure.

 

[Andy Mink]

ski for an unbelievable 2 and a half entire minutes

Are you power wedging all the way down? I kid!

 

[James]

You're right of course. But this is traveling, not necessarily for skiing.

Well it's interesting talking to a bunch of people who've come back from skiing Europe over the years. These are usually ski club trips or like Club Med. I think Club Med had some of the only truly slopeside accommodation in Chamonix
I always ask about if they got a guide and how much off piste they did. Sometimes it's none. Sometimes a little. Club Med came with a guide/instructor everyday.
Now, granted these aren't hard charging out the gates at Jackson skiers, but many do easy back country or are advanced.
What I've noticed is the quantity of off piste guided skiing is almost never a factor in the enjoyment of their trip. I'll more likely hear about the on piste restaraunt where they ate dinner then had to ski down a long ways in the dark. Or just the whole experience.

.
If you want to ski off piste, join a small guided group (5-6 skiers). It’s €60ish for a half-day 09:00-13:00 (+-€10-15). Your guide will whisk you to the best terrain/available conditions that suits your liking and capabilities.

I think Chamonix is about €85/day. Groups are about 8. The Discovery tour was a little more. Smaller group or more guides. You have to supply, beacon, probe, shovel. Sometimes crampons. Guides will often supply harness if needed. That may be a small group though and more €.

In Verbier your that is not possible except on Wednesdays. That's when they offer join a group. Otherwise, you have to make your own.
It depends on if there's enough people too. Not sure the minimum #, I'm guessing 4-6. Cost last year was 135 ChF. Included airbag, shovel, probe, no beacon. You have to rent that.
This year when I was there there weren't enough. (Not sure what's wrong with people, when it's warm and hadn't snowed in awhile a guide can find good snow. Perhaps it's because the standard routes would be skied out. )
There was a private company that listed join a group on Tuesdays and Fridays. They apparently stopped that and didn't change the website nor tell all their instructors as I shared a chair with one who didn't know.

 

[Goose]

Are you power wedging all the way down? I kid!

Yes, wedging down the whole way while sipping a scotch/rocks and puffing a cigar. I mean I try to extend it best I can and sometimes when the boiler plate is dominating I throw on my Hockey skates and practice stick handling. I mean you do what you have to do to make something out of it,...you know?

 

[Andy Mink]

I throw on my Hockey skates

I felt I could have done that many nights at Camelback!

 

[Goose]

I felt I could have done that many nights at Camelback!

I usually put them on my Camel too. The term "ZOO" is not just a metaphor at Camelback.

 

[Nathanvg]

...You have to supply, beacon, probe, shovel. Sometimes crampons.

In Verbier [a non-private guide] is not possible except on Wednesdays. That's when they offer join a group. Otherwise, you have to make your own.
It depends on if there's enough people too. Not sure the minimum #, I'm guessing 4-6. Cost last year was 135 ChF. Included airbag, shovel, probe, no beacon. You have to rent that.

I skied a lot in Europe and even lived there for a few years. It's been a several years so I hope these things have improved but I struggled with the logistics above. In particular getting a shared guide was not possible unless you supplied the group wherever I went. Gear rentals were hard to find which meant a lot of additional expense and the pain of transporting the gear. So I never got a guide, skied mostly on piste, enjoyed the ski routes and skied a little off piste when I thought the risks were low. It was still a lot of fun but limited off piste was a downer.

If I could rent gear, join a group and pay under 150, I'd get a guide next time I go to Europe but frankly, I prefer the North American model and terrain. Most of my trips will be there.

 

[Goran M.]

I think it is a personal preference and comfort level ... Mountains are different in Europe (the Alps at least) than Rockies or Western US/Canada ... Most of the skiing being above the tree line, proximity to Mediterranean Sea (snow quality), geological features (crevasses), cultural/social differences(holiday time), health and legal issues ("sue them ... now") ...

On the question of "groomed" vs. "off piste" - my experience says that most of the Euro resorts offer a decent amount of relatively safe off piste skiing ... comparable on the scale what is found in most of the NA resorts ... With the proper knowledge of the snow pack, layout of the mountain, proper equipment and understanding of local laws and regulations - there is a plenty of skiing "off piste" in Europe. If any of these make you uncomfortable - hire a local guide. I would do the same thing if I go skiing anywhere - use your best judgement ! If in slightest doubt - hire a guide, spend 80-100 of whatever currency extra, it could be well worth it.

Plenty of people "identify" skiing in the Alps with the cliche of: "you leave groomed trail 3 feet and you are on you own and you will die, nobody will rescue you ..."

My previous post (3/4 pages back) was more of a rhetorical question ... Obviously that is not the case and relying on this false assumption that if anything bad happens to you that your chances of surviving in NA vs. Europe are higher - think again ! You should not be in this situation to contemplate where is the rescue service better - to begin with. BTW, high Alpine rescue services in the Alps are top notch - hard to find their match anywhere in the world !!!

And if one wants to go totally off the boundary of ski resorts (back country and ski touring) - every little slope is different and it is hard to make distinction between Europe and NA ...

 

[Cheizz]

I skied a lot in Europe and even lived there for a few years. It's been a several years so I hope these things have improved but I struggled with the logistics above. In particular getting a shared guide was not possible unless you supplied the group wherever I went. Gear rentals were hard to find which meant a lot of additional expense and the pain of transporting the gear. So I never got a guide, skied mostly on piste, enjoyed the ski routes and skied a little off piste when I thought the risks were low. It was still a lot of fun but limited off piste was a downer.

If I could rent gear, join a group and pay under 150, I'd get a guide next time I go to Europe but frankly, I prefer the North American model and terrain. Most of my trips will be there.

This goes for many Europeans who aren't Alpine locals.
Also, Chamonix is mentioned quite a lot here. But Cham is a bit of a world on its own. Almost like La Grave. I don't think it represents European skiing very well. Lack of groomer skiing in the resort itself is one; almost all skiable off-piste there is on a glacier is two. Two great reasons for hiring a guide overthere.
But in most resorts - Tignes & Val d'Isère, ST. Anton, Quattre Vallées even - there is a tonne of terrain that you can ski off the groomers by yourself, if you are able to manage the risks. That doesn't require a guide per se, but knowledge, training and gear if you go off the marked groomers. Many off-piste routes ('skiroute' in Austria, 'ineniery' in Switzerland and France) are drawn on the piste map (dottes lines) and - if open - are avy-controlled and even patrolled, AND no nasty terrain surprises.

 

[fatbob]

To be fair availability of drop-in guided groups in many resorts can be very limited to non-existent, and even where they do exist there is often a dark web of rumour and faith to be able to navigate to find one operating. There are obvious exceptions to this like La Grave, Chamonix and the highly promoted guided ops in St Anton.

 

[AlpsSkidad]

Well it's interesting talking to a bunch of people who've come back from skiing Europe over the years. These are usually ski club trips or like Club Med. I think Club Med had some of the only truly slopeside accommodation in Chamonix
I always ask about if they got a guide and how much off piste they did. Sometimes it's none. Sometimes a little. Club Med came with a guide/instructor everyday.
.

Clubmeds are all inclusive, including lessons, guides etc.
However, just in case everyone jumps on your post and wants to head to ClubMed Chamonix, It closed down a year ago. They sold the property off. It is now the first Folie Deuce hotel. (Folie Deuce is known for their après ski scene restaurant/clubs slope side at many French resorts)
Ever since ClubMed was bought by a Chinese investor a few years back, they are pushing a more upscale image and thereby closing/selling many of their oldest properties to make room for higher end and more expensive properties. I believe this is the last season for the Meribel ClubMed as well.
Sorry for the slight drift...

As an aside, we are heading to Chamonix in 2 weeks for the end of the season/Easter week.

 

[dbostedo]

I have a friend who spent a week at the Valmorel Club Med a couple of years ago... he's skied very little off-piste in the US, but with the availability of the guides, he said he went out almost every day off-piste, and really enjoyed it. Seems like a case of availability and ease of joining a group was made a difference. Are there other places you can stay where you can also have guiding included in the cost of the stay?

 

[James]

Are there other places you can stay where you can also have guiding included in the cost of the stay?

I assume you mean where you're not paying the full day rate for the guide. Otherwise, most hotels, inns can connect you with guides. Off hand, the only place I know is a lodge in La Grave. It's expensive, but also very advanced due to the serious terrain.
Ski club trips will often get guides.

In short, I don't know.

 

[dbostedo]

^^^
Yes, I meant where you're not directly paying for it (I suppose at a Club Med, you are paying for it, just indirectly). I wonder if that type of availability would make more people take advantage of it.

 

[fatbob]

^^^
Yes, I meant where you're not directly paying for it (I suppose at a Club Med, you are paying for it, just indirectly). I wonder if that type of availability would make more people take advantage of it.

Well sure - but given the average taker of a package holiday doesn't want to be skiing off piste wouldn't they be rather resentful of paying to subsidise guiding for others. There are plenty of organised trips that offer off piste skiing with guides if you want it - just search Ski Club of Great Britain holidays as an example (not really a club and definitely an acquired taste)

 

[jmeb]

The word "guide" is used in pretty different ways in the US vs Europe as well from my understanding. When I was there a guide meant a IFMGA-certified guide. In the US a guide can be anything from someone giving an on mountain tour with little to no training, to someone who happens to have a permit to guide in a particular space, to a fully AMGA certified guide.

 

[Swede]

For cheap in France, one can go with UCPA. Quite popular among Euros. Includes everything. Very basic though and very French--some love it, others ... not so much.

 

[Jacob]

In some resorts, the ski schools themselves also have guides. For example, in St. Anton, the Arlberg Ski School also has guides that you can book. I'm pretty sure that I've seen guides in Val d'Isere wearing ESF uniforms, but I'm not completely certain.

In a big resort I've never been to, that would be my first stop when shopping for guides.

 

[James]

@dbostedo , you can go another route. Start with a guided group, then find places to stay.
Trip organizers like Jagged Globe (UK) have guided off piste tours you can join into.

You can also hire an instructor. This may vary, and I don't know particulars. The one I talked to in Verbier said for some, with the certification they have they just can't use ropes but could pretty much go anywhere.

I know about Jagged Globe because of the one day I skied Les Grand Montets in Chamonix. A funny story. My first time in Chamonix and how I learned what the word "Falaise" means in French.

I had two days in Chamonix at the start of my trip. This is like 2016. I hadn't skied Europe since a week in the summer at Les Deux Alpes in 2001 and summer is very different.

The first day was a Sunday and I could not find a guided group. That seemed to be the day off. I didn't know about the Guide Office in town. Cham was a late addition to this trip when I realized it's only like 1 1/2 hrs from Geneva airport.

I'm trying to find this stuff out on the airplane with crappy wifi that keeps cutting off. That's in addition to finding a place to stay, and every stupid hotel search comes up with towns I've never heard of. "Only 17 km away". That's not far, but wait, it's in Italy! Wtf?! Then all these French towns I've never heard of. Even the name Chamonix wasn't simple. Some searches called it "Chamonix-Mont Blanc". What's that?? Is it the same thing, is it further away, up on the mountain, why is it hyphenated??

I finally settled on putting in "Chamonix Centre Ville" as that came up in one search. Then apparently practically every place was booked for the next night or it was ridiculously expensive. It was the start of French school vacation in Paris.
I ended up using google maps and looking at where the hotels where then searching online that hotel. I could see where the tram came in, I'd try to stay near that. Thank goodness Cham is pretty flat. In Verbier you could be faced with a daunting uphill walk using that method. But, same thing with the vacancy. I decided I'd just have to call from the airport.

Note, there's really no such thing as skiing "Chamonix". Kind of like there's no such thing as actually skiing "Aspen". It's Ajax, Aspen Highlands, Buttermilk, Snowmass. If you made each of those a weird name you've never heard of, spread them out, add more on a mountain range on the opposite side of town, it would approximate Chamonix.

That's the most difficult thing of skiing Europe coming from the US. Piste/off piste is simple. All these towns and ski areas you've never heard of. Multiple towns per each skiing area to stay, multiple ski areas per town. If you go with a group it's taken care of, but if you organize it yourself it can be very confusing starting from nothing.

When I rented skis in Chamonix, I think I started asking if he knew of a guided group for the afternoon. No, but I could book an instructor. The store was affiliated with a school I recognized from my futile online search. Hmmm.. It was more than I wanted to pay, but not that bad and time was short. I booked an instructor for the afternoon. I think it was 1-5.

I've got to get down to Argentière. It's a town the east end of the Chamonix Valley. Another town name, but I've got a map now!
Then you've got to find a place to boot up and stash your things. The vast majority wear ski boots on the bus or train or boot up in the parking lot. I've seen more Texas Suitcases in Cham then anywhere in the US in like 30 years.

It was super foggy that day. I've been skiing the lower mountain. Mostly on the gondola. There's some fresh snow and chunky stuff underneath. Some nice short woods skiing. At times it's fairly clear, then foggy, then nearly complete whiteout. I'm amazed at how fast people ski in a near white out.

I meet the instructor at 1 at the tram area. He says it's too foggy to do anything today. What about all these people skiing 20-30 mph in the fog? They're not even good skiers! I decided it's not a great idea to talk someone into doing something they don't want to do and think is a bad idea. There goes my guide for the afternoon.

So... After a run or two lower down, I decide to go up. I'll stay on the piste. There's only like two pistes down in a pretty big area. All above tree line. One was next to a glacier on the map, who knows how far away actually, but It seems better not to be near it, so I select the other.
Just getting down the metal stairs from the top of the tram is an uncomfortable adventure. The wind is blowing, the stairs aren't level, they look like they were taken from the movie set "Where Eagles Dare" 50 years ago with the original paint. (They've since replaced them I hear. Right now it matters not because the tram base burned down last fall and replacement is said to be two years.)

When I get down to the bottom there's a few minutes of partial clearing. It's spectacular. On one side is a steep drop and all sorts of nets to prevent lookers falling in. Jagged peaks stick up. Just to the right of that is a rope. I'm standing in my skis looking at the view, a guy walks by on skis and as he lifts the rope asks me if I'm coming. Tempting, but truly a bad idea. No thanks. He goes on heads down and vanishes around the corner.

Heading down the skies are somewhat clear for awhile and you can see. Somewhere down after the choice left the fog comes back. There's some people ahead so I use them as reference. The left side has poles with a rope between them, occasionally there's a small triangular warning sign that says "Falaise". Whatever that means, I assume it's not good. There's an unclear graphic of falling rocks. Not that I'm going under the rope, but the powder looks really nice over there.

Then the fog is thick. You can see one pole. Then even that disappears. In and out. There's a group somewhere up ahead I've seen before. At some point I stop, the layout and fog is such that I have no idea to go left or right. It's all a white soup. Then I see the group going to the right. They'll be out of sight in fog in seconds, I either follow them now or try to figure out where the piste goes.

I follow them. We go for awhile then they come to a stop. By this time it's pretty obvious it's a guided group. I'm also pretty sure we're off piste as I haven't seen any poles since we went right. So, I've now attached myself to a random guided group. I suspect guides don't like people coming out of nowhere and following them.
They're speaking English. I go to to the guide and ask which way to get back to the piste. He laughs. We're way off piste. The only safe way back would be to climb the way we came and in the fog that's not a good idea. I think I asked if I could follow, and he tells me to join the group, announcing I'm joining.

So this group was people from the UK that joined a Jagged Globe tour. It's their first day on alpine touring gear for most. The route we're taking is pretty well traveled as there's some moguls on one pitch. Seeing gets better and worse all the way down till pretty much we hit the trees. Some nice tree skiing where you can see where you going.
We hit a piste on the lower mountain and it's time I take off. I give the guide some Euros he doesn't want to take. I ask him what the signs that say "Falaise" mean. "It means Cliff!"
Good to know. We say good bye and ski off.

Here's the company's off piste tours:
https://www.jagged-globe.co.uk/ski/offpiste.html#details