Colorado Epic pass Xmas trip for beginners: Beaver Creek or Crested Butte

[marjoram_sage]

Maybe I've been reading too much Tony Crocker. Since I bought detailed data from him, I felt obligated to put that to good use and get ROI on my $19 spent.

On my 2 week trip to Beaver Creek, first week was snowy and 2nd week was sunny. It was much more difficult to ski during the second week as many high traffic sections were icy. It's pretty scary as a beginner. I also went to Park City a week ago. Due to recent snow, the surface was soft and I was able to ski slopes steeper than I thought I would be able to. There were hardly any icy sections. I loved it. You start feeling more confident when you are able to make your turns when you want easily without picking up too much speed. The fresh snow caused some runs to be bumpy towards end of the day even if they were groomed overnight. At that time I would find the low slope groomed areas as they were not bumped.

For a Xmas trip, it's early in the season so enough snow might not have accumulated if it hasn't snowed much. I think this is pretty common in California. Snowmaking will only cover a limited amount of terrain. Since most of the mountain won't be open, the extra traffic on these limited slopes would lead to the scary icy conditions. If there is snow then advanced people will leave the beginner slopes alone. It's always easier to ski around less people as a beginner.

So based on this limited experience I thought drought threat is an important thing if you want to ski as a beginner. Is this a valid line of reasoning?

My goal is to do a minimum 10 day Christmas trip and then one weekend and one 3 day trip in Jan/Feb/Mar/April. Some of these quick trips will have to be in California. I'm not planning on skiing Thanksgiving again after last year's experience

Also, 30 inches in a month could mean ten storms of only three inches. That gives fantastic surface conditions for most of the month, but three inches won't make powder chasers happy. That is, for better or worse, the way the snow typically falls at many Colorado areas.

That would make me really happy. It definitely doesn't snow that way in California. You get these big dumps that make the traffic really bad with the road closures and chain controls. Suffered through it once and don't feel like doing it again. I will only go when the roads are clear. I don't know how to ski powder anyway.

 

[New2]

I'm not 100% sure what causes the icy conditions some places & times, but it's certainly not just about recent vs. older snow. Mountain High and Snow Summit in Southern California generally offer relatively soft groomer snow even if they haven't received any natural snow that season. I still haven't found anywhere else that so consistently manages its snow quite that well.

Sunshine seems to be a really important factor in iciness. Too little sunlight coupled with sub-freezing temperatures means iciness because the snow never melts. Too much sunlight causes more melt than one might like, forming slush and, after a few days, significantly adding to the water content so when the temperatures get cold enough, it freezes into a solid block of ice.

Beaver Creek's north-facing slopes when the sun is at its lowest likely weren't getting quite enough sunlight to ever soften. Canyons at PCMR, though, has a good amount of east-, northeast-, west-, and northwest-exposed slopes, and the sun was at a slightly higher angle, too. So if you ever got any sunshine, it was helping.

I really love following the sun around the mountain on a nice day--depending on overall conditions, you can find the best snow anywhere from 15 minutes to several hours after the sun starts shining on a slope. One of the problems with traveling around too much is you never really get to know a particular mountain well enough to have a sense where to go in different conditions.

As for groomed runs getting bumpy later in the day, if there's enough snow falling, there's no way of escaping this. But in light snowfall or just generally soft-ish conditions, it's very dependent on crowds. The fewer people going down a run, the longer it's going to resist getting chopped & piled up.

 

[tball]

On my 2 week trip to Beaver Creek, first week was snowy and 2nd week was sunny. It was much more difficult to ski during the second week as many high traffic sections were icy. It's pretty scary as a beginner.

Yep, it's the high traffic that makes the groomers icy. On a weekday during a slow period, the groomers can stay nice all day even when it hasn't snowed for a long time.

Do you need to ski at Christmas? I'll channel Tony Crocker and say you are crazy to book a Christmas trip in advance. Wait until you see where the snow falls. The conditions at Christmas could easily be worse than what you saw at Thanksgiving this year. BTW, you got your $19 worth from Tony, as you know more about snow than 99% of beginners!

If possible, try to stick to slow periods like the week before Christmas, between new years and MLK day, and starting April 1st. Not only will it be less crowded and better surface conditions as a result, but you'll also be able to book those times last minute when you see which resorts have good conditions.

Also, take advantage of not having a kid stuck on a school schedule while you can. I used to take MLK and President's day off because they are too crazy, but now have to use those windows to ski like the rest of the families with school-age kids.

 

[marjoram_sage]

Do you need to ski at Christmas? I'll channel Tony Crocker and say you are crazy to book a Christmas trip in advance. Wait until you see where the snow falls. The conditions at Christmas could easily be worse than what you saw at Thanksgiving this year. BTW, you got your $19 worth from Tony, as you know more about snow than 99% of beginners!

If possible, try to stick to slow periods like the week before Christmas, between new years and MLK day, and starting April 1st. Not only will it be less crowded and better surface conditions as a result, but you'll also be able to book those times last minute when you see which resorts have good conditions.

Also, take advantage of not having a kid stuck on a school schedule while you can. I used to take MLK and President's day off because they are too crazy, but now have to use those windows to ski like the rest of the families with school-age kids.

It's tough with the limited vacation we get in the US. My sister lives in England and gets 4-5 weeks. I get 15 days and can't spend it all on a ski trips. Wife wants to go to warmer places as well. Maybe it's better to do a warm weather SoCal/Arizona trip in December, and week long ski trip in first week of April.

Or other alternative is to make the decision last minute by booking Southwest flights to couple of ski gateways (SLC, DEN, Spokane) and Phoenix (warm weather trip). Cancel the ski destinations if conditions are poor. Don't book any non refundable accommodations. I will have to figure out the right type of pass(es) to buy in spring to match those ski gateways.

 

[LewyM]

If you are constrained to locations serviced by Southwest Airlines, based on what you have said, Schweitzer would be a good location for your family. Sand Point is a nice town, there is inexpensive lodging, plenty of places to eat, things to do, and the drive to the mountain is pretty simple (about 20 minutes). The drive from Spokane to Sand Point is easy. There is plenty of good terrain for a family just starting out and while it isn't especially fancy, everything will be less expensive than a Vail resort. Christmas time is a reasonable bet and the groomers are likely to be in good shape. Note that there is virtually nothing to do at the mountain at night. Either you stay in a condo and just enjoy being in the mountains together, or you hit one of 2 or 3 restaurants.

If you are willing to travel to Canada (and you ought to be), the Okanagan, B.C. resorts would be perfect for your scenario. Avoid Whistler - Whistler is cool, Whistler is gnar, Whistler is highly ranked in magazines, but Whistler is not as well suited to your scenario as other options you haven't heard of yet. And lift lines during holidays are atrocious (especially if you are still limited to particular terrain). And the experience is getting more Vail'ized by the day. . . so take that for what it is.

I would encourage you to look at Big White, which is so family orientated that people forget that it is actually pretty nice skiers mountain as well. But there is a ton of good intermediate terrain. Everything is ski-in, ski-out, the Village is uniquely carved into the hill and there is an area in the valley where you have all of the activities (skating, dog sleds, sleigh rides, tubing, ice climbing - you take a gondola up and down to Happy Valley). There are more than enough restaurants and services to keep you occupied and happy. Fly to Kelowna, take a shuttle, no need for a car. Everything will be much cheaper than a Vail resort and I think it is a better experience for a family with finite resources when you consider all of the factors. The ski school is fantastic, cheaper than Vail and IMO much higher quality/value - especially for the kids. BW is also a pretty good bet for Christmas time, especially if you are focused only on groomer terrain. They are usually open wall to wall sometime around Christmas or shortly thereafter. The only downside at BW is visibility can be marginal, but that happens everywhere.

Sun Peaks would also be a nice choice for the family. Different layout, different vibe, but similar size/services footprint as Big White. A bit more expensive than BW (about 10% across the board in my experience) but you still get the Canadian discount over a U.S. resort. I think that the premium is largely attributable to the fact that SP is a marginally easier drive from Seattle and Vancouver (the last leg from Merritt to Kamloops to SP is quicker and typically easier driving than Merritt to Kelowna to BW). That fact is totally irrelevant to someone flying into Kelowna, however (and fwiw, access from Kelowna to SP is not as good and flying in and out of Kamloops is harder and more expensive). SP has a more traditional "base village" and slightly more reliable visibility than BW - although I've had plenty of "whiteout" days at Sun Peaks as well, so I think that the friendly local rivalry gets played up a bit more than is real. Snow conditions, however, are not as consistent as BW and you are more likely to see sections of the mountain going through freeze cycles in off years. For Christmas, SP is also a good bet because they need less snow to get the groomer terrain operating (they do obsessive summer grooming). SP has a compact little village (imagine just a corner of Vail Village), and I think it would work well for a family. That said, the total package isn't as totally focused on kids' activities as BW. As for the skiing, it is groomer paradise which other cool terrain mixed in. I think SP skis and feels more like Keystone to BW's Copper. I like them both and I think they both would work for you. I just favor BW based on everything I've heard.

Just a couple of ideas if you are looking for something well suited for your family's narrative. If you are willing to look, you will find that there are alternatives that fall somewhere on the spectrum between Beaver Creek and Loveland.

 

[marjoram_sage]

Thanks @LewyM . Fantastic detailed info. I will research BW and SP more as well.

On my preliminary reading, Schweitzer looks very promising. Big acreage. Their pricing for lessons is 1/2 to 1/3 of what you would pay at a Vail resort. They even have a shuttle so we could get by without having to drive if there is a storm.

There is a Holiday Inn in Sandpoint so we could even block a room for Xmas on points and cancel until a couple of days out. I like that kind of flexiblity for Xmas trip. Most likely we will end up renting a place with kitchen near a shuttle stop once the plan is finalized. The pass was $650 if bought in spring. 5 day tickets are $365 so even if we don't buy a pass, we won't be completely screwed (unlike daily ticket prices for Beaver Creek at $209 during holidays). There is also the Lake Louise card program which works out to be around $500 for 10 days. The only commitment is the initial CAD$109. That might be the way to go.

It all sounds too good to be true actually. The only catch might be the limited day light hours in December!

 

[LewyM]

Thanks @LewyM . Fantastic detailed info. I will research BW and SP more as well.

On my preliminary reading, Schweitzer looks very promising. Big acreage. Their pricing for lessons is 1/2 to 1/3 of what you would pay at a Vail resort. They even have a shuttle so we could get by without having to drive if there is a storm.

There is a Holiday Inn in Sandpoint so we could even block a room for Xmas on points and cancel until a couple of days out. I like that kind of flexiblity for Xmas trip. Most likely we will end up renting a place with kitchen near a shuttle stop once the plan is finalized. The pass was $650 if bought in spring. 5 day tickets are $365 so even if we don't buy a pass, we won't be completely screwed (unlike daily ticket prices for Beaver Creek at $209 during holidays). There is also the Lake Louise card program which works out to be around $500 for 10 days. The only commitment is the initial CAD$109. That might be the way to go.

It all sounds too good to be true actually. The only catch might be the limited day light hours in December!

Glad that was useful. I wouldn't worry about limited daylight, even in December. The lifts will spin until 3:30 or 4 so you can get in plenty of skiing.

Not sure how a Lake Louise card comes into unless you are considering Lake Louise which would be a cool choice, but I don't know about December reliability. You'd have to lean on a Banff local for that one.

For Schweitzer, if you are going to stay in town, the best lift ticket deal is going to be will be a bunch of "Ski3" 3 packs or a season pass purchased early. They sell the3 packs pre-season, early season. They cut it off at some point. The other thing to note about lessons at a place like Schweitzer (which is more "Ski area" than "Ski resort") is that the groups will be smaller, especially midweek. A few years back during Christmas week, my wife and kids had privates about half the time because they were the only students in the "class."

For both BW and SP you want to stay at the mountain. Not in town - that would defeat the purpose, would be a hassle and while both Kelowna and Kamloops have their charms (especially for an evening of minor league hockey), neither is a particularly appealing destination for an extended stay, nor a compelling launch pad for daily skiing. The beauty of flying into Kelowna and taking a shuttle to Big White is no car. You just don't need it while you are there.

For both Big White and Sun Peaks, you can find great deals on lodging/lift packages through central reservations. Sure, you might find one element cheaper elsewhere (lodging through Airbnb, lift tickets at Costco and so forth), but the 5 for 7 deals at Big White (lifts, lodging, discount on lessons all in Canadian dollars) are pretty hard to beat and usually applicable except for the week between Xmas and New Years when the discount is more like 6 for 7. I know it is hard to believe, but sometimes just calling, letting a pro configure it and buying a package nets you a better deal than you can piece together yourself on the internet (especially at places that are a bit quirky). Crazy talk, right?

Regardless of where you go, if you are committing to a location for two weeks, buying a season pass early (pre-season) is going to make sense. The break even point is usually around 8 or 9 days.

Lastly - I would caution you not to rely too much on statistics you don't really understand and that have almost no relevance to the quality of your experience and your family's experience. Things like "acreage" are virtually meaningless, without more context, especially if you are not skiing the full mountain (i.e., Jackson Hole has tons of "acreage" but most of it wouldn't be applicable to you at this point). The stats might give you a general sense of how big a place is, but what is more important is how big a mountain "skis," how much vertical is in play, the amount of skier traffic across that acreage and how the terrain absorbs that traffic, and that isn't always evident from raw stats. Some of this you just have to find out, and in the interim, decide who to trust, and make a few bets. . .

 

[New2]

LewyM's advice seems good. The Lake Louise Plus card might be a good fit because it provides discounted skiing at Schweitzer and Red (also Panorama and Silver Star), along with LL. Or at least that's been the case--but with the shifting alliances, of course, that could change before next season. Still, a deal like this is a nice alternative to a pass because it reduces the per-day cost while being self-insuring to some extent (if there's an injury Day 1, you're not out much cash at all). Another possibility for Schweitzer is discounts through ski shows... some of the 2018 Warren Miller locations included codes $99 2-packs at Schweitzer - @marjoram_sage you should definitely plan on attending a show next fall to get excited and to get some nice discounts.