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Electric Truck - Wow!

dovski

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I'm not so sure about that given that a lot of homes around here still don't have central heat/AC and run 220 volt clothes dryers, kitchen ranges, and giant 240 window units all at the same time peak summer hours. Betting the EV charger doesn't pull more than that.

It's having 150 charging units all at one remote rest stop that seems sketchy to me. What does a family do at a rest stop for 2 hours when stops under the current system take less than 10 minutes?
Actually I had to put a separate 100 AMP circuit in my home when I installed my EV charger. So yes it can draw a lot of power but I never use it for more than an hour a day.

A lot of the chargers at rest stops have their own transformers and battery backup systems. Tesla has also started installing solar panels at charging stations.

Last but not least it does not take 2 hours to charge when using a super charger, more like 15-30 minutes.
 

James

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It's likely that super chargers at some point would have their power source remotely controlled. (Meaning sometimes it might not go on exactly when you want) This is already common on outdoor home ac compressors. The company monitoring can turn it off or delay start up depending on demand.

So it would prevent one street for example running all the chargers during the same 30 minute period. You could automatically stagger them. Now if you're desperate, maybe you could request an over ride. Afaik, that doesn't exist now.

What does exist, is commercial users signing up for power management to reduce their load at times. You agree, during periods of high demand, to reduce your grid consumption by so many kilowatts. For that you get paid. These are private companies managing these programs.
Places that require backup generators have to have generators that meet current pollution standards or they can't be enrolled. (I think) They are very, very expensive.
 

dovski

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It's likely that super chargers at some point would have their power source remotely controlled. (Meaning sometimes it might not go on exactly when you want) This is already common on outdoor home ac compressors. The company monitoring can turn it off or delay start up depending on demand.

So it would prevent one street for example running all the chargers during the same 30 minute period. You could automatically stagger them. Now if you're desperate, maybe you could request an over ride. Afaik, that doesn't exist now.

What does exist, is commercial users signing up for power management to reduce their load at times. You agree, during periods of high demand, to reduce your grid consumption by so many kilowatts. For that you get paid. These are private companies managing these programs.
Places that require backup generators have to have generators that meet current pollution standards or they can't be enrolled. (I think) They are very, very expensive.
This already exists with Tesla. They can control both the power to the charger and the level you can charge your battery to during peak demand.
 

nesneros

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This is where Tesla’s super charging network is a major difference. When you go on a Tesla road trip the GPS actually plans short stops at super chargers along the way so you top off as you go. Typical charging stop is 20 minutes and the kids usually take a potty break or grab a bite. Combine that with destination charging and there really are no worries. Just follow the ABC rule, “always be charging”. The cars are now pushing a 400 mile range and the super charging network is expanding to secondary routes and smaller population areas so now more than ever there really are not any barriers to traveling cross country or to Canada or Mexico with a Tesla

I keep hearing that the supercharger network is a major advantage, but from the last numbers I saw, CCS and CHAdeMO Chargers outnumbered Tesla’s network 4:1, and they do 150kw DC charging compared to Tesla’s current 120kw. They’re all available along the freeway in my ~500 mile radius.

I also don’t think anyone is really pushing 400 miles per charge on any current Tesla. Maybe in WLTP tests which are quite optimistic. Real world tests are between 200-280 miles depending on model, in good weather.

Sorry, I’ve just been reading about these things for a solid week trying to decide if I want to put money down on a Polestar 2 or a Model Y or an XC40 recharge. So far the XC40 has my interest. Not sure how I feel about the panorama glass and roof rack combo on the other two, seems prone to damage. The XC40 is a nice normal looking utility vehicle that I could see myself taking skiing.
 

nesneros

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Here’s a range chart for the Model S 85 kWh models, from Tesla. Notice the mileage varies a lot, you can get good range if you go 45 on the freeway but cut that in half for going actual freeway speeds. This would apply to all EVs, they are so efficient that pretty much anything will eat away the range.

D2624E15-6058-4EED-BE23-52D5E711B339.png


https://www.tesla.com/blog/driving-range-model-s-family

I’m game to get an EV but the range numbers should be taken with a grain of salt. If you’re hitting a mountain pass be sure to have extra juice.
 

dovski

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I keep hearing that the supercharger network is a major advantage, but from the last numbers I saw, CCS and CHAdeMO Chargers outnumbered Tesla’s network 4:1, and they do 150kw DC charging compared to Tesla’s current 120kw. They’re all available along the freeway in my ~500 mile radius.

I also don’t think anyone is really pushing 400 miles per charge on any current Tesla. Maybe in WLTP tests which are quite optimistic. Real world tests are between 200-280 miles depending on model, in good weather.

Sorry, I’ve just been reading about these things for a solid week trying to decide if I want to put money down on a Polestar 2 or a Model Y or an XC40 recharge. So far the XC40 has my interest. Not sure how I feel about the panorama glass and roof rack combo on the other two, seems prone to damage. The XC40 is a nice normal looking utility vehicle that I could see myself taking skiing.
Ok not sure where you are getting your numbers but in the US it is almost impossible to find a CHAdeMO and CCS chargers. I have been driving an EV for over three years and have the adapters for these chargers, they only get used in Canada and only when I cannot find a Tesla Super Charger. Most of these other chargers tap out at 50KW, the 150 standard is new and even less common, though that will change over time. All Tesla Super chargers are at least 120KW and the new ones they are rolling out are 250KW, which aligns with the capabilities of their new cars.

Most EVs on the market today will not benefit from anything over 50KW because they are not able to take advantage of the higher KW, Tesla can. This is the other important thing depending on how the internal charging and battery technology in the car you will see very different results from the same charger. This is a key area where Tesla has a head start over the other EVs on the market and the difference is significant.

As for range, the new Tesla Model S has an EPA rating of 373 miles, granted those are under ideal conditions so assume you get less than that in real world driving conditions. So not quite 400 miles yet but pretty close. By comparison the XC40 is expected to have an EPA rate of around 200 miles. I think the XC40 looks very cool, but want greater range in the EV I take to the ski hill as with cold weather and mountain roads you will easily lose 30% of your actual range as compared to the ideal conditions that EPA testing is based on.

upload_2019-11-25_18-47-0.png
 

dovski

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Here’s a range chart for the Model S 85 kWh models, from Tesla. Notice the mileage varies a lot, you can get good range if you go 45 on the freeway but cut that in half for going actual freeway speeds. This would apply to all EVs, they are so efficient that pretty much anything will eat away the range.

View attachment 85441

https://www.tesla.com/blog/driving-range-model-s-family

I’m game to get an EV but the range numbers should be taken with a grain of salt. If you’re hitting a mountain pass be sure to have extra juice.
completely agree. Also cars get much less range in cold weather. Have not experienced the drop off in efficiency at higher speeds, this happens more around going up hills and fast acceleration. This would be the thing to be careful of with the volvo, it has a much smaller battery than the Tesla and much shorter range. Also you should look at the numbers for the new Model S extended range version of the Tesla as this is their new standard.
 

James

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This already exists with Tesla. They can control both the power to the charger and the level you can charge your battery to during peak demand.
So can you request an override if you're desperate for a quick charge?
 

dovski

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So can you request an override if you're desperate for a quick charge?
Sort of. When it is busy by default it will only charge you to 80% but you can override that. They also automatically lid balance across chargers on the same circuit and that you can not override
 

nesneros

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Ok not sure where you are getting your numbers but in the US it is almost impossible to find a CHAdeMO and CCS chargers. I have been driving an EV for over three years and have the adapters for these chargers, they only get used in Canada and only when I cannot find a Tesla Super Charger. Most of these other chargers tap out at 50KW, the 150 standard is new and even less common, though that will change over time. All Tesla Super chargers are at least 120KW and the new ones they are rolling out are 250KW, which aligns with the capabilities of their new cars.

Most EVs on the market today will not benefit from anything over 50KW because they are not able to take advantage of the higher KW, Tesla can. This is the other important thing depending on how the internal charging and battery technology in the car you will see very different results from the same charger. This is a key area where Tesla has a head start over the other EVs on the market and the difference is significant.

As for range, the new Tesla Model S has an EPA rating of 373 miles, granted those are under ideal conditions so assume you get less than that in real world driving conditions. So not quite 400 miles yet but pretty close. By comparison the XC40 is expected to have an EPA rate of around 200 miles. I think the XC40 looks very cool, but want greater range in the EV I take to the ski hill as with cold weather and mountain roads you will easily lose 30% of your actual range as compared to the ideal conditions that EPA testing is based on.

View attachment 85442

The EPA numbers don’t mean much to me, especially given the wide real world variance. The Tesla range report link above shows you can go from over 300 miles of range at the EPA tested 60mph, down to ~230 miles at more realistic freeway speeds, all due to air friction. As a side note I have a hunch that this also means you can gain a lot of mileage by drafting behind other vehicles.

There are some real world controlled track tests out there showing that cars like the Audi E-tron get 195 miles to an EPA rated 200, while a 300 mile EPA rated Tesla gets ~230. In fact all of the Teslas tested dropped ~50 miles off their EPA ratings, while all other tested cars nearly nailed or even exceeded their EPA values.

This isn’t to bash Tesla, perhaps there were flaws in the test that only impacted the Teslas, but to show that 1) in the real world you have to be prepared for wide variance in range with any EV. They’re super efficient, but also fickle, you have to go into it knowing your range will vary significantly 2) Don’t choose a Tesla just based on range, thinking it’s the only EV that will go 250+ miles without stopping. You will likely want to stop and charge well before 200 miles, like any other EV, unless conditions are just perfect.

As for the XC40, the Polestar 2 has an identical drivetrain, battery, and is rated at 275 miles EPA. The XC40 has not yet been rated, most assume it will be at least 200, which is why everyone is quoting 200. It should all be taken with a grain of salt though because these tests are done on rollers at 60mph with no wind resistance and a static derating factor.

In the end though, I’m thinking if a 200 mile rated E-tron gets 196 on a track test, and a 320 mile rated model X 100D gets 233 miles on the same test, the XC40 is probably going to be right in there too in the 210-220 real range.
 

nesneros

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Found the track test I had read, from a euro auto blog.
https://www.whatcar.com/news/what-c...-car-can-go-farthest-in-the-real-world/n18160

Maybe there’s something with the testing method, not sure. Here’s the methodology used: https://www.whatcar.com/news/what-car-real-range-how-we-work-it-out/n18158

It just sent me down that rabbit hole where eventually I found the actual Tesla blog that mapped range as a function of speed.

As for the charging thing, there was an August 2019 assessment showing charging station counts here: https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1124639_chademo-fast-charging-stations-still-outnumber-ccs-ones

It doesn’t break down the actual 150kw stations on CCS and CHAdeMO or which Tesla stations are actually 120kw as of now. Electrify America shows hundreds of DC stations spread evenly along freeways, and any one found at a Walmart is supposed to either be 150kw or 350kw DC. While it’s hard to find numbers (for me anyway) it seems clear that competition is healthy, changing rapidly, and I just didn’t see a stark advantage one way or the other.
 

dovski

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The EPA numbers don’t mean much to me, especially given the wide real world variance. The Tesla range report link above shows you can go from over 300 miles of range at the EPA tested 60mph, down to ~230 miles at more realistic freeway speeds, all due to air friction. As a side note I have a hunch that this also means you can gain a lot of mileage by drafting behind other vehicles.

There are some real world controlled track tests out there showing that cars like the Audi E-tron get 195 miles to an EPA rated 200, while a 300 mile EPA rated Tesla gets ~230. In fact all of the Teslas tested dropped ~50 miles off their EPA ratings, while all other tested cars nearly nailed or even exceeded their EPA values.

This isn’t to bash Tesla, perhaps there were flaws in the test that only impacted the Teslas, but to show that 1) in the real world you have to be prepared for wide variance in range with any EV. They’re super efficient, but also fickle, you have to go into it knowing your range will vary significantly 2) Don’t choose a Tesla just based on range, thinking it’s the only EV that will go 250+ miles without stopping. You will likely want to stop and charge well before 200 miles, like any other EV, unless conditions are just perfect.

As for the XC40, the Polestar 2 has an identical drivetrain, battery, and is rated at 275 miles EPA. The XC40 has not yet been rated, most assume it will be at least 200, which is why everyone is quoting 200. It should all be taken with a grain of salt though because these tests are done on rollers at 60mph with no wind resistance and a static derating factor.

In the end though, I’m thinking if a 200 mile rated E-tron gets 196 on a track test, and a 320 mile rated model X 100D gets 233 miles on the same test, the XC40 is probably going to be right in there too in the 210-220 real range.

I agree there are a ton of variables that factor into range the biggest of which is how you drive and where you drive. Driving in mountain passes during the winter you will see at least 30% drop in range. Cold weather impacts range and so does driving up mountains. With all this said, I have taken my Tesla on road trips every summer. This includes driving through mountains … etc, Always coming within + or - 5% of what was stated. The other thing to remember is that EVs lose range over time as the batteries lose capacity. I have seen the range on my tesla drop from 262 to 256 over three years.

That said EPA ratings are a controlled standard that get applied across the industry whereas track test are not. So when comparing EVs you need to pick a standard and for me that is EPA as there is some science behind it whereas track test a really just a bit of fun.

I also do have to point out that the study shared was for the Model S 85 which is what I drive. These are older Tesla's whose EPA range was around 265, which they hit at 70 mph in the study. At 60 MPH your study indicated a range of 320 which seems very high. My only point here is that taking data like this test needs to be done so in proper context as it would actually indicate that you do hit the EPA range with these cars if you do not gun the engine and drive 85-90 all the time … that said if you do just be prepared to do some additional charging :)

The best thing you can do is test drive a bunch of EVs and decide which one you like the best. If you don't like the way the car drives or cannot stand how it looks, does range even matter :) I strongly recommend you use the EPA standards for an apples to apples comparison. While I understand your thought process around comparing ranges, I think some of your data is bad or taken out of context leading to flawed assumptions. Also you really do need to account for how you will charge your car quickly while traveling and destination charging capabilities. There are a number of apps that can help you plan trips with EVs, play with that and you may be surprised with what you find.
 

dovski

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Found the track test I had read, from a euro auto blog.
https://www.whatcar.com/news/what-c...-car-can-go-farthest-in-the-real-world/n18160

Maybe there’s something with the testing method, not sure. Here’s the methodology used: https://www.whatcar.com/news/what-car-real-range-how-we-work-it-out/n18158

It just sent me down that rabbit hole where eventually I found the actual Tesla blog that mapped range as a function of speed.

As for the charging thing, there was an August 2019 assessment showing charging station counts here: https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1124639_chademo-fast-charging-stations-still-outnumber-ccs-ones

It doesn’t break down the actual 150kw stations on CCS and CHAdeMO or which Tesla stations are actually 120kw as of now. Electrify America shows hundreds of DC stations spread evenly along freeways, and any one found at a Walmart is supposed to either be 150kw or 350kw DC. While it’s hard to find numbers (for me anyway) it seems clear that competition is healthy, changing rapidly, and I just didn’t see a stark advantage one way or the other.

Just read this article. It reinforce what I said about the fast charging stations it looks like of the CCS and CHAdeMO stations only 40-50 will have the 150 or above capacity by the end of 2019. Which means the rest are going to be 25 -50 KW. It also has the wrong numbers for Tesla as there are actually 1,636 Stations with 14,497 Superchargers and a lot more planned. All Tesla Supercargers are at least 120KW with the new ones rolling out being 250KW and plans to eventually upgrade the entire network to the more powerful chargers (no time frame on that mind you).

This is a very important differentiator as at best 40 of the CCS and CHAdeMO stations in North America will have the higher power output. Whereas all of the Tesla stations already have a higher output and improving. you will also have much more access to Tesla Superchargers than all other CHAdeMO and CCS chargers combined regardless of whether you go by Tesla's number below or the numbers in the article.

The devil is in the detail here, but it is super important as you do not want to be spending your roadtrip stuck in a rest stop trying to charge your car on a level 2 charger :)

upload_2019-11-25_21-48-52.png
 

Rod9301

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In the last 3 years I have put about 35k on my Tesla. During that time I have had one optional service visit that cost $600 and I just replaced tires for $1200. If you go with the higher performance tires you will have to replace them more often similar to any sports car. With EVs you don’t have all the moving parts or fluids that you have in a regular car so service is minimal. I have had some warranty issues and when I brought the car in Tesla did courtesy inspections and some complimentary service work like changing out the windshield wipers. I get free super charging on trips and free charging at work so really have had minimal operating costs over the last 3 years. My assumption is that you would save a ton as compared to 100k of maintenance on any other vehicle
And how about replacing the 10,000 dollar battery?
 

crgildart

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Last but not least it does not take 2 hours to charge when using a super charger, more like 15-30 minutes.
I thought you said that was for 50%. maybe triple that for a full charge?
 

nesneros

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And how about replacing the 10,000 dollar battery?

it seems they take quite awhile to wear out and need replacement. Many Tesla owners have been collecting data on this and after nearly 200k miles they retail ~90% of their capacity. You also have an 8 years, 100k miles warranty to figure out if your battery is going to be reliable. Most people who drive luxury cars don’t even keep them this long.

https://electrek.co/2018/04/14/tesla-battery-degradation-data/

Surely there will be outliers, but realistically most will last to 300k miles before needing a battery swap. And it isn’t cheap, but if the car lasts that long it isn’t surprising that it will need some major maintenance.

https://insideevs.com/news/375459/tesla-model-3-50k-miles-battery-degradation/
 

nesneros

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I thought you said that was for 50%. maybe triple that for a full charge?

I think the idea is that given range variability, you never want to dip below say 20-30% charge. If you are on a trip and hit the base of a mountain range with 20% battery it will evaporate much faster than expected.

Most EVs that support fast DC charging claim something like 80% charge in ~30 minutes. Considering that you’d probably stop with some juice left and really just looking to be topped off your break is likely going to be in the 15-30 minute range.
 

nesneros

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Just read this article. It reinforce what I said about the fast charging stations it looks like of the CCS and CHAdeMO stations only 40-50 will have the 150 or above capacity by the end of 2019. Which means the rest are going to be 25 -50 KW. It also has the wrong numbers for Tesla as there are actually 1,636 Stations with 14,497 Superchargers and a lot more planned. All Tesla Supercargers are at least 120KW with the new ones rolling out being 250KW and plans to eventually upgrade the entire network to the more powerful chargers (no time frame on that mind you).

This is a very important differentiator as at best 40 of the CCS and CHAdeMO stations in North America will have the higher power output. Whereas all of the Tesla stations already have a higher output and improving. you will also have much more access to Tesla Superchargers than all other CHAdeMO and CCS chargers combined regardless of whether you go by Tesla's number below or the numbers in the article.

The devil is in the detail here, but it is super important as you do not want to be spending your roadtrip stuck in a rest stop trying to charge your car on a level 2 charger :)

View attachment 85454

Ok, I’ll concede that Tesla might have a greater number of >50kw chargers out there, but VW is being forced to dump $2B into a CCS charging network over the next few years due to dieselgate. Walmart has announced 150kw and 350kw chargers - https://corporate.walmart.com/newsr...s-nationwide-with-plans-for-further-expansion

If I select just DC fast chargers, it looks to me like there are plenty to get around, unless you want to drive through Wyoming or the Dakotas.

DB9D0A63-DC70-4A65-BFE0-A1A56E332D87.png

Surely there is charging in the Dakotas, perhaps just not from Electrify America. Checking my ChargePoint app seems to confirm this, filtering out for J1772 plugs.

EB3BE07F-D00C-413D-9684-E5CCDECD161E.jpeg


The cars themselves actually contain the chargers, so mainly this is a battle of connectors and payment methods. I also found it interesting that in Europe Tesla uses CCS connectors and there’s much greater compatibility between Tesla and non Tesla networks. It would be nice if we could all settle on one connector instead of having adapters.

At any rate, my intention was not to quibble over whose network was better, just that there is healthy competition. I personally didn’t see the Tesla charging network as the killer differentiator when there are so many J1772 compatible stations and so much investment going on now.
 

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